Fertilizer approach

[cbw]

This year, we are using Jeff Sturgis Ultimate No till process . I’m curious on recommended timing and method for fertilizer.

I’ve got soil tested on all my plots from Whitetail Institute. Added recommended lime. What do you guys do for other fertilizer on your plots.

Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bassattackr]

What are you going to plant? Legumes have different needs than Grains, and vice versa.. Depending on what you're planting, your fertilizer needs could be minimal or none at all. I haven't fertilized in years.

There's nothing special about "his process", it's just a ripped version off of other no til farmers before him. Grant Woods, etc..

 

[yoderjac]

I'm to the point with improving soil health and nutrient cycling with no-till and smart crop mixes that I haven't used fertilizer for about 4 or 5 years now. Keep this in mind. Fertilizer recommendations are aimed at farmers who are planting monocultures and harvesting crops. On top of that, most soil tests don't test for N. The N recommendation comes mostly from the needs of the crop you specify. Food plotters are not harvesting and can select crops that deer love, provide good nutrition, and benefit soil health. With this approach the amount of fertilizer we benefit from is often a fraction of the recommendation. The timing of the application is even less important for food plotters than the amount.

I'd say, fertilize when you have time.

Keep in mind that plants ability to uptake nutrients depends on soil pH. The time it takes to adjust the pH with lime will depend on your soil. Maintaining a good pH by adding that lime is the most important thing you will do....except perhaps to plant right before a rain!

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

There's nothing special about "his process", it's just a ripped version off of other no til farmers before him. Grant Woods, etc..

Yep......

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

There's nothing special about "his process", it's just a ripped version off of other no til farmers before him. Grant Woods, etc..

Yep......

Wait, but doesn’t he say in his videos that he innovated that type of food plot planting?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

Wait, but doesn’t he say in his videos that he innovated that type of food plot planting?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I haven't watched but just a few minutes of his videos. It wouldn't surprise me though. People who are in the spotlight like these folks seem to be only concerned with their own self-interest......whatever builds them up.....even if it's being disingenuous. I should have seen that coming all along. Its all good though......I really don't desire the attention of "being somebody". There's lots of folks who deserve credit for bringing these methods about anyways....dgallow being one for sure.

 

[yoderjac]

What are you going to plant? Legumes have different needs than Grains, and vice versa.. Depending on what you're planting, your fertilizer needs could be minimal or none at all. I haven't fertilized in years.

There's nothing special about "his process", it's just a ripped version off of other no til farmers before him. Grant Woods, etc..

It is the convergence of marketing and science. Everyone in science leverages from those who walked before them. Folks in marketing find ways to take something that has been changed by 0.01%, rename it, and sell it as something new and wonderful.

The real point here is not so much who gets credit for what but whether these techniques are beneficial for us. Many folks in the spotlight are pushing magic beans. I prefer seeing folks re-labeling sound techniques.

I completely concur with CrimsonNCamo on Doug. While he was quite hard to follow for me, he was a great help in my learning process! And don't forget "Ray the soil guy" from NRCS. He has probably converted more commercial farmers to no-till operations than anyone. Quite the soil evangelist.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[TreeDaddy]

Gabe Brown,David Montgomery,Christine Jones, and Elaine Ingham are others who come to mind

bill

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

I agree Jack......for me another big influence is Masanobu Fukuoka....aka the Japanese Farmer......

 

[cbw]

Re: no fertilizer needed because of soil health.
That’s fantastic! And the goal. This is our first year owning the property, so we are a few years off of that. :-)

Re: Other sources:
Looks like I started a red herring by mentioning Sturgis. :-) I follow a lot of guys and I’m learning from them all. Appreciate the links that were mentioned above. There is a few I had not heard of yet. My general approach is to give more weight to the tactics that are common across all the sources. Sturgis and Grant Woods are the helpful in packaging packaging the concepts to be digestible for the stage that I’m at.

Re: fertilizer methods:
I appreciate those that mention they don’t fertilize, the lower priority fertile right is compared to other elements. That’s helpful.

Maybe no one on this thread fertilizes. :-) But if you do, I’m still open to hearing your preferred tactics... here is the status:
- added lime already to bring pH up
- ran soil tests so we know the lbs per acre needed to add for each mineral for each crop
- live in SW Iowa and in middle of drought.
- planted buckwheat cover crop and it did ok.
- fall plantings:
- 1/2 side of plots: brassica blend
- 1/2 side: peas/beans
- drilled these in to buckwheat then roller-crimped the bw.
- Sept, will overseer with cereal rye.

Any other thoughts on fertilizer for this first year? Thanks everyone!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[yoderjac]

This year, we are using Jeff Sturgis Ultimate No till process . I’m curious on recommended timing and method for fertilizer.

I’ve got soil tested on all my plots from Whitetail Institute. Added recommended lime. What do you guys do for other fertilizer on your plots.

Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So, to be more specific, fertilizer can come from lots of sources. You were probably referring to commercial fertilizer in your question. And when starting out, taking a soil test and applying commercial fertilizer according to the test is not a bad thing. First getting those cryptic soil test results will hopefully stimulate curiosity and prompt you to learn more about your soil. It is a slow and complex process with a tall learning curve for those of us without formal soil science training. Once the pH is adjusted, your crops will do well when fertilized.

I would compare commercial fertilizer to vitamins. Unless you have some particular disease or a strange diet and have been diagnosed with a vitamin deficiency, your body will use the vitamins (regardless if they come from a pill or the things you eat) as needed and the excess is pissed away. If you have a deficiency in a particular vitamin, the pills can make a huge difference in some cases. If you don't, except if taken in huge quantities, the pills don't hurt you, you just piss away the excess. The only hurt is to your wallet.

So, not using commercial fertilizer does not promote soil health. Practices that promote and maintain good soil health (like your diet), mean that, unless you are in a very unusual situation, you will need less and less commercial fertilizer to achieve your objectives. From a deer management perspective, that means more resources to spend on other management practices. When you are starting the time and money spent of fertilizer for your first 1/2 acre plot is negligible, but when you begin working at a large scale, commercial fertilizer can be a very big part of your budget.

Farmer Dan mentioned this on another thread. Start by matching your crops to the soil rather than trying to apply commercial fertilizer to make the soil support the crops you choose. Most guys hear "crop A" is great for deer, so they try to plant it without thinking about how "crop A" does in there soil or climate. One good example for me is alfalfa. Alfalfa is a great deer crop and many guys love it. I have tried it. But I find that perennial clovers fill the same niche as alfalfa in my program and they are much less fussy about soil. I don't go quite as far as Dan's post suggesting we plan only crops that don't require any soil amendment or don't plant in that area. I like the concept of bending nature slightly rather than radically. The further I try to bend nature, the more it costs and the less marginal benefit I get.

So, what about non-commercial fertilizer. That comes from lots of sources. Every plant has a different ability to mine minerals from the soil. Some like radish mine deep. Others like buckwheat desiccate quickly and release their minerals for the next crop. Legumes like clover, peas, and beans fix nitrogen from the air and release it into the soil when they die. When deer eat your crop they defecate back into the field dropping nutrients from native plants they have eaten as well as your crop. Planting a balanced mix of grasses and legumes that provide a good Carbon/Nitrogen ratio decompose and essentially become compost on your field. This organic matter becomes the home for an entire microbiome that promotes the process of nutrient cycling.

So, I'm not suggesting you don't use commercial fertilizer at all. I'm just trying to provide some big picture perspective. It has taken me quite a few years to get to the point where I don't use commercial fertilizer, and if I see deficiencies arise in the future, I have no problem making a commercial fertilizer application.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Re: no fertilizer needed because of soil health.
That’s fantastic! And the goal. This is our first year owning the property, so we are a few years off of that. :-)

Re: Other sources:
Looks like I started a red herring by mentioning Sturgis. :-) I follow a lot of guys and I’m learning from them all. Appreciate the links that were mentioned above. There is a few I had not heard of yet. My general approach is to give more weight to the tactics that are common across all the sources. Sturgis and Grant Woods are the helpful in packaging packaging the concepts to be digestible for the stage that I’m at.

Re: fertilizer methods:
I appreciate those that mention they don’t fertilize, the lower priority fertile right is compared to other elements. That’s helpful.

Maybe no one on this thread fertilizes. :-) But if you do, I’m still open to hearing your preferred tactics... here is the status:
- added lime already to bring pH up
- ran soil tests so we know the lbs per acre needed to add for each mineral for each crop
- live in SW Iowa and in middle of drought.
- planted buckwheat cover crop and it did ok.
- fall plantings:
- 1/2 side of plots: brassica blend
- 1/2 side: peas/beans
- drilled these in to buckwheat then roller-crimped the bw.
- Sept, will overseer with cereal rye.

Any other thoughts on fertilizer for this first year? Thanks everyone!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Since the objectives of food plotters are different from the objectives of farmers (whose objectives the fertilizer recommendations are for), they are probably more than you need. But as I said in my previous post, I've got no issue with you fertilizing according to the soil test. The when of fertilizing has less impact than the fact that you fertilize. I would do it at planting time.

I would re-think your split plant. Brassica and peas/bean can be complementary crops. There is no need to plant them separately since you don't harvest like a farmer. Instead, surface broadcast your brassica and then drill the beans/peas over them if your drill has a cultipacker type closer rather than individual row closers. Even if if has individual row closers, drilling over top will be enough for the brassica to germinate well.

Make sure you keep the brassica rate fairly low. Overseeding with WR in Sep is a great approach. Your plants will benefit from each other and your field will be attractive to deer.
As far as applying commercial fertilizer, don't take the recommendation too seriously. I'd just average your lbs/ac across all the crops and it will be plenty. Both planting and fertilizer will benefit from being applied with rain in the forecast, especially N, but they do make coatings now that make that less important than it once was.

Thanks,

jack

 

[Bassattackr]

Wait, but doesn’t he say in his videos that he innovated that type of food plot planting?

I've never paid attention long enough. Can't watch his videos for more than 5 minutes before I feel the need to vomit.. He's the best expert on everything if you ask him.

There are much better resources out there for both food plotting, hunting and/or land management.

 

[cbw]

So, to be more specific, fertilizer can come from lots of sources. You were probably referring to commercial fertilizer in your question. And when starting out, taking a soil test and applying commercial fertilizer according to the test is not a bad thing. First getting those cryptic soil test results will hopefully stimulate curiosity and prompt you to learn more about your soil. It is a slow and complex process with a tall learning curve for those of us without formal soil science training. Once the pH is adjusted, your crops will do well when fertilized.

...

Thanks,

Jack

Wow, thank you so much, Jack, for taking the time to drafts such a comprehensive response. That means a lot.

Re: commercial fertilizer
Yes. Thank you for helping me be more precise. :-)

Re: vitamins
Great analogy. My mental model is changing. I grew up on as an Iowa farm boy (30 years ago :-) ) —we grew corn and soybeans and some livestock. So the only fertilizer I knew was commercial fertilizer and manure. Learning from you, many others in this forum, and others like Joel Salatin, has been enlightening.

I’ll be taking the time to re-read and digest what you’ve written. Thanks so much for giving back

-Chad


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[cbw]

Start by matching your crops to the soil rather than trying to apply commercial fertilizer to make the soil support the crops you choose.

[mention]yoderjac [/mention] Makes sense. Do you have a preferred source that would show a beginner like me what each plant species naturally put back and take from the soil? I’m aware of the basics around the relationship of nitrogen to corn and legumes. And an initial internet search brings up a lot of scientific articles that talk generalities. Thoughts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[cbw]

I would re-think your split plant.

Thanks. I have already planted 7 plots. I have one more to plant that we can try the broader mix. This last plot had the weakest soil—the only place the buckwheat didn’t take well. Was planning on tillage radish and oats and overseed with rye in Sept. It is about an acre. Every plot is an experiment.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[yoderjac]

[mention]yoderjac [/mention] Makes sense. Do you have a preferred source that would show a beginner like me what each plant species naturally put back and take from the soil? I’m aware of the basics around the relationship of nitrogen to corn and legumes. And an initial internet search brings up a lot of scientific articles that talk generalities. Thoughts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No, I'm certainly no expert but the basic relationship is all you need. Look what nature does. Rarely do you see monocultures for long in nature. By mixing your crops balancing between soil health and not burning your OM through tillage, you will need less and less fertilizer to achieve your goal.

And speaking of goals and objectives, that is where you start. If you are trying to do QDM, you need scale. If deer that use your property are spending a significant amount of time on the land of others with different objectives, you won't be successful at QDM. It requires scale. How much depends on your habitat, but I like to use 1,000 acres as a pretty good average proxy. If you don't own or at least have influence on something approximating that, you might want to rething.

That doesn't mean folks with smaller properties are left out. It means they need to look for goals that are achievable on smaller properties like making the property more huntable for deer rather than trying in vein to improve the herd.

Another big picture thing to consider is that the bottom line is the underlying fertility of your soil. Food plots should have specific objectives. For example, if QDM is a goal, feeding plots should be focused on producing quality foods during the periods when nature is stingy in your area. For a small property owner, the goal may be something like influencing deer movement during a specific period. Food plots make up a small fraction of a deer's overall diet. You can temporarily improve the soil fertility to some degree with amendments and/or techniques, but since much nutrition throughout the year will come from other native sources, folks living in areas with high fertility soils will always be ahead of folks who are are on marginal soils like me.

In general, mix legumes with cereal or rotate them. You will learn about individual crops and their characteristics as you go. Choosing crops that perform well in your region and with your soils is just as important. You will try things as you go. What works well for me may not work well for someone in a different area or with different soils.

As you ask questions here, look that the locations of folks who answer them. There can be big differences, especially between north and south. Weight folks who are in the same area and USDA zone as you a bit heavier.

Thanks,

Jack