Crimping/Rolling without a Crimper?

[yoderjac]

Has anyone tried this with a tiller?

I wonder if this has a the same or different effect compared to what I do. Because my clay can crust, I've been running my tiller (with PTO power) but raising it so high it only touches the top inch or less of the soil. This terminates my cover crop including PTT which can be difficult to terminate. I typically do this early before the WR is old enough to crimp properly. It leaves the mulch layer and I usually wait quite a while to plant. By then any crimson clover and WR has bounced back so I have to spray with gly at planting time. This also controls any weeds getting started.

If I were to simply wait until the WR was mature enough to crimp and did the same thing and planted the same day, I wonder if I could skip the gly and get the same results.

I may also try doing a field next spring with the PTO off as shown in the video now that I'm beginning to build OM. It would be interesting to compare the results.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Catscratch]

Looks like it worked but he went over it twice with 50% overlap. That means you will be covering around 2.5' of your field per pass... and hitting it twice? Why not just raise your tiller up to 1in over the soil and use it like a mower to do TnM style?

 

[Natty Bumppo]

Haven't tried that, but I sure will this this spring. Been looking for a roller/crimper. They are hard to find in the Northeast, and expensive when you do.

Thanks for the video.

 

[TreeDaddy]

an interesting alternative to the crimper

I have also wondered about mechanical alternatives to the intense grazing livestock techniques that Gabe Brown and others have popularized

bill

 

[SD51555]

I don't understand the fad in roller crimping. If I were that guy, I'd sell the tiller and buy a flail mower. Instead of trying to crimp the rye and "hope" you got it all, cut it, chop it up nice and fine, and lay it down flat right where you found it and in one pass. Had he made a third pass, he'd have everything crimped and nicely compacted from his rear tires. If it'll crimp, it'll mow kill.

 

[Catscratch]

I don't understand the fad in roller crimping. If I were that guy, I'd sell the tiller and buy a flail mower. Instead of trying to crimp the rye and "hope" you got it all, cut it, chop it up nice and fine, and lay it down flat right where you found it and in one pass. Had he made a third pass, he'd have everything crimped and nicely compacted from his rear tires. If it'll crimp, it'll mow kill.

That was kind of my point earlier. Although if I had a tiller and didn't have a mower of some sort or crimper I would probably try it with the tiller. A flail mower is high on my list of "wants".

 

[swat1018]

If you wait till the rye is at the right stage, I lay it down for good with the FEL on my tractor as I'm notilling in my summer annual. The benefit of not mowing the rye is that you get a mat of rye all layed out in one direction, orderly. It provides a uniform mat, and descent weed control. When I lay it down with the loader, the mat pretty much lasts all summer.

 

[yoderjac]

Looks like it worked but he went over it twice with 50% overlap. That means you will be covering around 2.5' of your field per pass... and hitting it twice? Why not just raise your tiller up to 1in over the soil and use it like a mower to do TnM style?

That was kind of my point earlier. Although if I had a tiller and didn't have a mower of some sort or crimper I would probably try it with the tiller. A flail mower is high on my list of "wants".

Yes, that was kind of what I was asking. I may be getting the same effect using my current method and it is done in 1 pass. The question becomes, once I have enough OM that crusting is no longer an issue with my clay, is it beneficial not disrupting that top inch?

With WR, if I mow it, it bounces back and keeps growing until it dies naturally in the summer. This is what I do when I'm using it as a nurse crop for perennial clover.

When I'm trying to plant a spring crop, I need to actually terminate it. With my current method, and the same would be true for mowing, I use gly at planting time. I've never used a crimper. Folks say it terminates WR once it is mature.

You are right about saying that going over it twice is a real pain in the butt and may not be worth the time. With my current method of tilling only the top inch, not only does it only take one pass, but I also go pretty fast, intentionally.

With all the crimper discussions I took at look at cost and can't justify it. I saw an interesting homebuild on here where I guy used an old oxygen tank and welded angle iron to it for an ATV sized crimper. I thought it might be an interest welding project. As I was googling around trying to find if folks used other more common items for the roller portion than an oxygen tank, I came across this video. It just got me thinking about what I currently do and if a crimper really adds anything.

My current method worked well for many years. After a pine thinning, marestail from the native seed bank infiltrated our fields and the gly I was using really advantaged it. That is what got me thinking about methods that did not use gly.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Catscratch]

Yes, that was kind of what I was asking. I may be getting the same effect using my current method and it is done in 1 pass. The question becomes, once I have enough OM that crusting is no longer an issue with my clay, is it beneficial not disrupting that top inch?

With WR, if I mow it, it bounces back and keeps growing until it dies naturally in the summer. This is what I do when I'm using it as a nurse crop for perennial clover.

When I'm trying to plant a spring crop, I need to actually terminate it. With my current method, and the same would be true for mowing, I use gly at planting time. I've never used a crimper. Folks say it terminates WR once it is mature.

You are right about saying that going over it twice is a real pain in the butt and may not be worth the time. With my current method of tilling only the top inch, not only does it only take one pass, but I also go pretty fast, intentionally.

With all the crimper discussions I took at look at cost and can't justify it. I saw an interesting homebuild on here where I guy used an old oxygen tank and welded angle iron to it for an ATV sized crimper. I thought it might be an interest welding project. As I was googling around trying to find if folks used other more common items for the roller portion than an oxygen tank, I came across this video. It just got me thinking about what I currently do and if a crimper really adds anything.

My current method worked well for many years. After a pine thinning, marestail from the native seed bank infiltrated our fields and the gly I was using really advantaged it. That is what got me thinking about methods that did not use gly.

Thanks,

Jack

I've always assumed tilling the top inch contributed to your crusting problem. I have fairly clay soils also and when I TnM the seed roots break through from the top because of the moisture retention of the thatch (it doesn't crust when it's still moist). When seeding underground without thatch on top the soil drys rather quickly and forms that top crust. Bare dirt is seldom my friend.

 

[yoderjac]

I've always assumed tilling the top inch contributed to your crusting problem. I have fairly clay soils also and when I TnM the seed roots break through from the top because of the moisture retention of the thatch (it doesn't crust when it's still moist). When seeding underground without thatch on top the soil drys rather quickly and forms that top crust. Bare dirt is seldom my friend.

There is no bare dirt with my method like with normal tillage. When I'm done tilling a field, it is not brown, it is still green. The vegetation is chopped up remaining on top with very little soil is mixed with it. The crusting problem came from extremely low OM from my abuse with a 2-bottom plow when I first started. Crusting is becoming less of and issue over time. That is one reason why I'm exploring alternatives to my current method that don't require gly. The need to till that top inch for crusting is vanishing. One alternative is simply mowing but I'm concerned that will have the same effect as when I use WR for a nurse crop and it will not terminate without gly I think rolling would have the same effect. That is why I'm exploring crimping.

I'm transitioning from traditional tillage through minimal tillage to no tillage...

Thanks,

jack

 

[Catscratch]

I've considered the same thing with building one for myself. I've also looked at hot water tanks, old propane tanks, heavy wall pipe, and even 55 gallon barrels. I know of a 55 gallon barrel that is full of concrete that has lasted decades as a roller. When you make it be sure you consider wt and bear loads. By bearing loads I'm referring to how much pressure you will need to apply with your tractor. The lighter the crimper the more pressure you will need from your tractor and the more likely it will break things. Heavy enough to crimp just by pulling is going to be your most worry free design.

 

[Catscratch]

There is no bare dirt with my method like with normal tillage. When I'm done tilling a field, it is not brown, it is still green. The vegetation is chopped up remaining on top with very little soil is mixed with it. The crusting problem came from extremely low OM from my abuse with a 2-bottom plow when I first started. Crusting is becoming less of and issue over time. That is one reason why I'm exploring alternatives to my current method that don't require gly. The need to till that top inch for crusting is vanishing. One alternative is simply mowing but I'm concerned that will have the same effect as when I use WR for a nurse crop and it will not terminate without gly I think rolling would have the same effect. That is why I'm exploring crimping.

I'm transitioning from traditional tillage through minimal tillage to no tillage...

Thanks,

jack

I thought you had bare dirt due to your tillage. My premise still stands in that it's better to have thatch resting on top of the soil than mixed in. Decomposition will bring it to the root zone in due time without disruption of fungi, bacteria, and atmosphere.

 

[yoderjac]

I thought you had bare dirt due to your tillage. My premise still stands in that it's better to have thatch resting on top of the soil than mixed in. Decomposition will bring it to the root zone in due time without disruption of fungi, bacteria, and atmosphere.

I completely agree. I think on the old QDMA thread someone coined the term "thirt". When I'm done tilling with that lifted, fast, tiller method, it looks like thatch from a distance. If you look closely you can see some dirt in the thatch. I also completely agree that less disruption is better. I'm hoping to get to zero, but I'm still looking for a termination method without gly.

I'm wondering if I simply wait until the WR is more mature (crimping level mature) and still run the tiller but lift it even higher so it does not contact the soil if it would have a similar effect to crimping. The downside I see is trying to drill through the trash with my little kasco for larger seed items like beans or corn. With the crops I'll be using this year, buckwheat, sunnhemp, etc, I think I can just surface broadcast if the tiller terminates the cover crop.

Thanks,

Jack

I've considered the same thing with building one for myself. I've also looked at hot water tanks, old propane tanks, heavy wall pipe, and even 55 gallon barrels. I know of a 55 gallon barrel that is full of concrete that has lasted decades as a roller. When you make it be sure you consider wt and bear loads. By bearing loads I'm referring to how much pressure you will need to apply with your tractor. The lighter the crimper the more pressure you will need from your tractor and the more likely it will break things. Heavy enough to crimp just by pulling is going to be your most worry free design.

I've considered some of the same things. Even a steel lawn roller filled with water. Most hot water tanks today are .090 thick and lined with glass. That might be an option. If I'm going to build one, I'll like it to be at least 5' or 6'.

At this point, I'm just considering the options...

Thanks,

Jack

 

[SmallChunk]

It sounds like you’re trying to roll your rye too early. Wait until the seed heads have formed to lay it down.

Wouldn’t attempting to till standing WR be a tangled mess?

 

[yoderjac]

It sounds like you’re trying to roll your rye too early. Wait until the seed heads have formed to lay it down.

Wouldn’t attempting to till standing WR be a tangled mess?

I'm not rolling or crimping it, but yes, if I were, it would be too early. Because it is a mixed cover crop, I was concerned that the PTT would bolt. What happens in my case is that the tiller chops up the PTT so they don't bolt, but only mildly disturbs the WR and CC in the mix. They both quickly bounce back and provide food until I'm ready to plant my warm season annuals.

Things are changing at my place over time. We used to have high deer numbers and if soybeans are to survive and canopy, they needed to be planted in a small window when soil temps were warm enough but in time so they were established before does left their heavy fawning cover which is when they got the first heavy browse pressure. We had a big drop in deer numbers in 2014 and the population has been recovering since. We also had the issue I described with Marestail so I switched from beans to less attractive buckwheat which has a much wider planting window to allow for soil residual herbicide use.

You make a good point. If and when I go back to planting soybeans, my planting window may not allow WR to be mature enough to crimp and tilling mature WR may be a problem.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[swat1018]

I don't know how you would till more mature rye without a constant balled up mess in your tiller.

 

[Catscratch]

I don't know how you would till more mature rye without a constant balled up mess in your tiller.

Ball it up enough and walla... roller/crimper! :)

 

[yoderjac]

I don't know how you would till more mature rye without a constant balled up mess in your tiller.

Yes, and that would be the advantage of using the tiller with the PTO off as a poor man's crimper as shown in the video of the original post.

 

[Rit]

I’d really like to get away from spraying and this seems like it would be beneficial but not sure the cost of these things is worthwhile. I am only plotting about 3 acres now and spraying that a few times a year is still time consuming when you factor in cleaning out a 60 gallon 3 point sprayer and cleaning the roller pump.

I am planning to put in spring planted cover
crops this year and most of it was in WR. I don’t think I’ll get a good enough kill with just mowing and not spraying.

 

[MNAaron]

Has anyone tried the rolling baskets on the back of cultivators for crimping? Curious if they would work


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