Clover outcompetes my efforts for diversity??

[Wind Gypsy]

So....I was re-reading this thread and examined the "Cover Crop Termination" paper(s) written by Michigan State (above). One of the few "Excellent" combinations to kill clover is a mix of Glyphosate (.75 lb a.i.) missed with Diacamba (.5 lb a.i.).

I do not see any planting restrictions with this mix. I am totally unfamiliar with Diacamba. What are some brand names? Expensive?? Not sure Dicamba is a better choice than 24-D Amine.....but the U of Michigan seems to think so. Worried about plant back time. Trying to have little impact after one week. Also.....how many oz of each to equal the lbs stated of active ingredients??? Kinda confusing.

Kinda been thinking I could use 2 Qt / acre 41% Glyphosate and a Pint of 24-d /acre. Add a little Nitro Surf. Thanks for any help here.

My current plan is to spray some 5 to 10 foot wide strips of clover cover/rye cover crops........then a week or so later drill my brassica mix (possibly others) into these strips......and follow very soon after planting with my roller crimper to all areas to form a mulch on top of the new brassica crop.

I need to solidify a burn down mix......and that paper from Michigan State has fair data on the chemicals......IMO.

Where have you seen that brassicas are safe 7 days after spraying with 2,4-d? I’ve seen where soybeans are said to not be safe til 14 days after and some others are much longer. I do have a handful of stuff I’m not sure gly will wipe out but I’ve been hesitant to go 2,4-d because I wanted to plant sooner after burn down.

 

[buckdeer1]

Dicamba drifts bad and if you have any crop close that is not Dicamba you can wipe it out.It's a constant fight among farmers if they can't all agree to plant one way or another.Sounds like several areas are still discussing outlawing it

 

[Foggy47]

Where have you seen that brassicas are safe 7 days after spraying with 2,4-d? I’ve seen where soybeans are said to not be safe til 14 days after and some others are much longer. I do have a handful of stuff I’m not sure gly will wipe out but I’ve been hesitant to go 2,4-d because I wanted to plant sooner after burn down.

Look at the info from Michigan University about two pages back. It does depend on the amount sprayed......but that is my question. HOW MUCH 24-d can you apply / acre to allow planing in ten days? (the rates shown in the article are not in oz but rather in active ingredient lbs). So.....I am trying to come up with a good mix for this application.....where we can plant brassica with little worry in a week or so.

 

[FarmerDan]

The direct advice is to follow the instruction in/on the label. Understanding how to interpret the label is often a mysterious circumstance. The label information is based on research....with a broad margin of error applied. I'm not going to answer - or be able to answer - your specific questions for lack of knowledge about the variables that cause the need for the margin of error. I'm going to work with 2,4-d generalities. Let's assume a gallon of 2,4-d amine is something like 50% active ingredient. That most likely translates into about 4 lbs of active ingredient. Applying 1 pint of concentrated spray material will leave behind half-a-pound (0.5 lbs) or 8 oz dry weight active 2,4-d. Next question. How long will it persist in soil? Or, to put it another way, how long will its effect continue? Look at it's half life. How many days pass until half the applied amount remains (active)? For 2,4-d there is a wide range of answers dependent on soil type, content, and weather. Generally, it could be as little as 2-days or as much as 30 or more days with the typical half life around 10-days give or take. You ask where you can plant brassicas with little worry. I'm not sure what "little worry" means. With herbicides there's always a risk of damage to desirable plants. It's the many things we don't know. Now I'll offer an opinion. Applying a pint of 48% active ingredient? Little worry? Maybe 8-10 days. Some worry? 3 or 4 days. Go to a quart per acre and double the worry and the number of days to wait to reduce worry.

Source #1


Source #2

 

[Foggy47]

^ Thanks Farmer Dan. Likely the best response to this age-old question I've seen. Helps get me on the right page.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

The direct advice is to follow the instruction in/on the label. Understanding how to interpret the label is often a mysterious circumstance.

I haven't read a 2,4-d label in a while but if I recall correctly the struggle for newbies like me is deciphering how half life time corresponds with safe planting intervals. I understand that different soils and conditions can change the results but i've never seen a method for using soil conditions and half life to calculate when it's safe to plant.

Questions that run through my head:

-Half life is one thing but how much active ingredient is too much for brassicas? clover? beans? peas? I could see half of the applied rate still damaging a lot of stuff.
-How does one go about estimating half life based on soil conditions?
If these answers are on the label and I just need to read closer, you can tell me to go try reading it again, I just don't recall seeing answers.


Just based off google and reading some of this stuff, i'm a bit gun shy to use 2,4-d and then plant brassicas, clover, and peas like I have planned within 30 days of spraying.

 

[FarmerDan]

I haven't read a 2,4-d label in a while but if I recall correctly the struggle for newbies like me is deciphering how half life time corresponds with safe planting intervals. I understand that different soils and conditions can change the results but i've never seen a method for using soil conditions and half life to calculate when it's safe to plant.

Questions that run through my head:

-Half life is one thing but how much active ingredient is too much for brassicas? clover? beans? peas? I could see half of the applied rate still damaging a lot of stuff.

I don't know. The "indicated" crops ae listed on the label - meaning experimental replications has been done extensively. If a crop is not on a label it usually means something of insignificant economic value. In other words the manufacturer isn't going to spend the money to do the research. So we guess.

-How does one go about estimating half life based on soil conditions?

Scientific wild ass guess. Most likely you don't. It takes a lab. Not that it matters here for us but I think there are labs that can do the test on a commercial basis.

If these answers are on the label and I just need to read closer, you can tell me to go try reading it again, I just don't recall seeing answers.

What's not on/in the label is as important as what is there. If you use it for an unlabeled crop (the good stuff) or to kill weeds that are not listed (the bad stuff) you ae off label, experimenting, and on your own - legally. Perhaps I mis-phrased and/or didn't explain well enough. Or, since 2,4-d is a generic products you can read each of the many manufacturer's labels. Here's one thing to consider. Time to germination. If you spray today and wait 10-days to plant and it takes 10-days for the seed to germinate it's been 20-days since the herbicide application. Next question - does the herbicide affect germination? Over and out! I don't know.

Just based off google and reading some of this stuff, i'm a bit gun shy to use 2,4-d and then plant brassicas, clover, and peas like I have planned within 30 days of spraying.

You are wise! In my post I tried to convey the concept of risk and an idea about the probability of risk and failure. In this game, as I know you well know, there are no certainties. I have unintentionally killed grass with a high rate of 2,4-d. I've severely damaged Egyptian wheat. Many have experienced the yellowing of corn and leaf curl after applications of 2,4-d. I avoid the stuff.

 

[Foggy47]

^ 24-d seems like it's a "staple" herbicide for many out there. I've used very little 24-d (amine) in the past.....normally a low dose for dandelions in my lawn......IIRC. From the above.....I now know I will leave the Dicamba idea out of my plans.....but still considering a low rate of the 24-d added to glyphosate to terminate my clover. Gotta do some more label reading. Thanks for your comments!

 

[FarmerDan]

^ 24-d seems like it's a "staple" herbicide for many out there. I've used very little 24-d (amine) in the past.....normally a low dose for dandelions in my lawn......IIRC. From the above.....I now know I will leave the Dicamba idea out of my plans.....but still considering a low rate of the 24-d added to glyphosate to terminate my clover. Gotta do some more label reading. Thanks for your comments!

It's a staple because it's been around since 1944. And it works. I don't mean to put too fine a point on the subject - or maybe I do. Pesticides deserve a lot of respect and too often too many use them indiscriminately with no thought believing there can be no adverse consequence.

 

[Westwind]

@FarmerDan any comments on the differences between 2 4-D amine and 2 4-4 ester for those of us less versed on herbicides?

 

[FarmerDan]

@FarmerDan any comments on the differences between 2 4-D amine and 2 4-4 ester for those of us less versed on herbicides?

No, not really. Its at a depth that is probably inconsequential for habitat work. If you were a golf course superintendent with some fairways up against a vineyard which formulation to use might make or break a career. LoV ester is NOT low volatility. The "low" form is less so than plain old ester which could be equal to amine at certain temperatures. Highly volatile herbicides work better than those that are not, but it's something that cuts two ways.

 

[Westwind]

Thanks! Very interesting stuff!

 

[Foggy47]

Well....here I am.....again. Much of my brassica planting of July 11 has come in pretty well.....but in other areas that clover that I had nuked (2 qts Gly and 1 Pint 24-d) is coming back to fill in where the brassica is slow to take. We had some real rainfall shortages in July.....so the Brassica didnt do too well in some areas....and I thought the clover was toast.....but it's coming back again now.

I am uncertain if some of that brassica can compete with the clover....or if the clover will somewhat choke out the sparse brassica (PTT/ DER/ GHH / Kale). I likely have enough other areas to provide decent brasica.....but the clover here is some persistent stuff. At least it's not pigweeds.

 

[homerj]

but in other areas that clover that I had nuked (2 qts Gly and 1 Pint 24-d)

Did you add AMS?

 

[Foggy47]

Did you add AMS?

Nope.

I did add a non ionic surfacent tho (nitro surf)

 

[Skeeter]

I'd consider clover instead of weeds a big win. My clover didn't recover well enough to out compete weeds in my failed early summer planting.

 

[Foggy47]

Did you add AMS?

just reading up on AMS.....again. Here is a good write up. how-much-ams-do-i-need-to-combat-hard-water-antagonism-of-postemergence-herbicides

I suppose I should use it.

 

[SD51555]

Trouble with clover is it only seems to outcompete what you wish it didn’t. The stuff you don’t want easily steamrolls clover after a couple years.


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[Foggy47]

Trouble with clover is it only seems to outcompete what you wish it didn’t. The stuff you don’t want easily steamrolls clover after a couple years.


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At least I have not seen anymore pigweed......remrkable actually.

 

[SD51555]

At least I have not seen anymore pigweed......remrkable actually.

New inputs yield new outputs.


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