Chestnuts Still no radical! WTH
- Thread starter Jordan Selsor
- Start date
cavey
5 year old buck +
Its never as easy as it seems it should be...
The way it looks then - in light of not trying to make home made air pruning containers my only option is to go from my solo cups to the 1 or 1.5 gal containers then 3 gallon ones.(its kind of a scam how they measure/label nursery pots - I think mine are actually labeled 1.6 gal - but they look like they are smaller then 1 gal. I'm pretty sure I could dump a 1 gallon ice cream pails worth of water into them and overflow it) anyways,,
I have that option of doing the staggered transplanting you speak of, inso far as the container sizes - less the rootmaker containers - I can rake out the side wall roots/over growth from the one gal containers then transplant to the 3 gal. so they don't encircle as much (maybe even hand prune them, I've always been told that cutting/ripping up of the encircling roots can stimulate growth in long term potted plants that are being transplanted and maybe that's why your multi-time transplanted plants have done better - ?? I don't know?). They are not going to have that root system air pruning gives you then I guess... and in the future Im going to rethink the timing of pulling them out of the fridge...
The only thing is?? from what I've seen these chestnuts (cold stratified) kind of have a mind of there own and when they are ready they pretty much take off and I really dont want to be keeping them chilled in the fridge with an ever longer and longer growing root radical; 30 nuts stacked up in a plastic bag (to easy to damage). I dont have the space to chill them in their own cells in the fridge.
So to direct plant them in the spring I would have to delay my cold stratifying start time right?? How would you store them prior to putting the chill on them then? I'm assuming there is still a benefit from cold chilling and planting a known viable nut/plant. My one issue is this time around I have about a 100 plants growing... had I 20 plants things would be different. Infact I dont have enough 3 gal containers anyways the more I think of it. I was going to pot about 30 plus apple trees in them too. I have a small fenced nursery where I can dump this springs grafted trees into and will just bare root them out in a year or two but I'm still going to be short on the 3 gal containers.... arrrg
What I have to remember is that there is almost 100 Dunstan Chestnuts growing in the basement with over 90% germination this first go around, and that is pretty flipping cool. I will get all of them transferred to my small pots. All of this is food for thought for the future; you are really sold on the air pruning - and I now clearly see the benefit of the time you can keep them in those especially with may being a better time for us to put trees into the ground.
The way it looks then - in light of not trying to make home made air pruning containers my only option is to go from my solo cups to the 1 or 1.5 gal containers then 3 gallon ones.(its kind of a scam how they measure/label nursery pots - I think mine are actually labeled 1.6 gal - but they look like they are smaller then 1 gal. I'm pretty sure I could dump a 1 gallon ice cream pails worth of water into them and overflow it) anyways,,
I have that option of doing the staggered transplanting you speak of, inso far as the container sizes - less the rootmaker containers - I can rake out the side wall roots/over growth from the one gal containers then transplant to the 3 gal. so they don't encircle as much (maybe even hand prune them, I've always been told that cutting/ripping up of the encircling roots can stimulate growth in long term potted plants that are being transplanted and maybe that's why your multi-time transplanted plants have done better - ?? I don't know?). They are not going to have that root system air pruning gives you then I guess... and in the future Im going to rethink the timing of pulling them out of the fridge...
The only thing is?? from what I've seen these chestnuts (cold stratified) kind of have a mind of there own and when they are ready they pretty much take off and I really dont want to be keeping them chilled in the fridge with an ever longer and longer growing root radical; 30 nuts stacked up in a plastic bag (to easy to damage). I dont have the space to chill them in their own cells in the fridge.
So to direct plant them in the spring I would have to delay my cold stratifying start time right?? How would you store them prior to putting the chill on them then? I'm assuming there is still a benefit from cold chilling and planting a known viable nut/plant. My one issue is this time around I have about a 100 plants growing... had I 20 plants things would be different. Infact I dont have enough 3 gal containers anyways the more I think of it. I was going to pot about 30 plus apple trees in them too. I have a small fenced nursery where I can dump this springs grafted trees into and will just bare root them out in a year or two but I'm still going to be short on the 3 gal containers.... arrrg
What I have to remember is that there is almost 100 Dunstan Chestnuts growing in the basement with over 90% germination this first go around, and that is pretty flipping cool. I will get all of them transferred to my small pots. All of this is food for thought for the future; you are really sold on the air pruning - and I now clearly see the benefit of the time you can keep them in those especially with may being a better time for us to put trees into the ground.
Davewp70
A good 3 year old buck
At time of planting, i just put dirt and screen in ground, break away roots having stuck to screening. and then leave screen in place as a rodent guard. (back filling dirt, appropriate sized cage, staking...)
Davewp70
A good 3 year old buck
Did a large batch a few years ago. Can certainly attest, learn more from mistakes and observation than just reading. Sometimes too shaddy, too wet, too sunny. Rushing the hardening process. frequency of watering.... The cages are 5 foot tall, again, learning that despite all of the other forest offerings. Deer will scoff at 4ft cage.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
The only limitation to direct seeding is the ability to get a shovel in the ground. If you direct seed in the fall, nature cold stratifies them and they begin top growth when it warms up in the spring. You cold stratified in the fridge. If you can dig deep enough to get the nut and radicle below the soil line and can protect the nut from rodents, nature will keep them from sprouting.
Now there is one possible hitch. When chestnuts are planted in the fall, they go through a slow change in temperature that causes chemical changes in the nut which protects them against freezing. When we collect nuts in the fall and put them in the fridge to cold stratify, we skip that slow transition and nuts don't have time to adapt. That is why it is important to keep nuts above freezing in the fridge but they can freeze in nature. So, depending on your weather, I hard freeze could kill a nut, but I'd probably take that risk.
Thanks,
Jack
Well guys should I be worried yet. After planting 50 nuts in my rootmaker pots 2 weeks ago, I have exactly 1 out of 50 that is sprouting a radical. Should this take that long. They cold stratified for 3 months in the fridge. Pictures are in an earlier post.
Thanks
Thanks
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
This thread has a chart a couple posts down. http://habitat-talk.com/index.php?t...-chestnuts-transferred-from-qdma-forums.5712/ It was transferred from another forum so the picture is an icon. If you click on it you can see it in full size. These were Dunstan nuts that were only cold stratified for 60 days. They were all planted in 18s with no root radicle showing. The chart shows how many showed top growth over time.
If you read down the thread, you will see that Wayne also did Chinese chestnuts in the same period. His were cold stratified for 90 days and he go significantly better germination rates than I did. It is pretty clear to me that if you are short on 18s or want to maximize germination rates, 90 days of stratification is best. However in my case, I had plenty of 18s and more nuts than I could handle. So, with 60 days cold stratification I got an extra couple weeks of growth and was able to time my transplant from 18s to 1 gals to coincide with acclimating plants to the outside.
That chart should give you some idea of when to get worried.
Thanks,
Jack
I have to say this Chestnut from seeds project is the biggest fail I have ever had in all of the habitat projects I have tried. One sprout out of 50 nuts. Not sure what I did wrong. I followed directions to the letter. I guess it's seedlings from now on for me.
I had the same results with my first attempt last year. This year I have about a 50% germination rate. It does make you wonder how trees manage to grow in the wild when we fail at it under ideal conditions, with all the information that is available to us.
Keith
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
You may have done nothing wrong at all. If nuts were infected with mold at the source, you can do everything right and have failure. Start with where you get nuts. I've had good luck with Chestnut Ridge of Pike County. Next, be sure your crisper temp is correct. Ensuring you have the right moisture level during cold stratification is something that takes time to learn. Too much moisture and you encourage mold to grow and spread. Too little and nuts don't cold stratify.
If you start with good nuts and you get at least this far, you will likely get over 50% germination.
As for nature, think how many chestnuts a single mature chestnut tree produces over its lifetime and how few of them end up as trees.
Thanks,
Jack
bigeight
5 year old buck +
When you say " cold stratisfied" do you mean in the fridge in a zip lock with no added moisture? Or in the fridge with added damp spaghnum moss?
I usually do 75-90 days in a Gallon zip lock 3/4 full of nuts with about an inch of the bag open to let them breath, but condensation on the top so they don't dry out. Then switch to adding damp spaghnum to the bag splitting the dry nuts into 2 bags with the moss. It usually takes a month or so for them all to pop after that.
Let me know if I can help. If you want already germinated nuts, I'll send you some. If you want seedlings, let me know as well :)
Last edited:
John B
5 year old buck +
What is the temp where you have them planted? I had to buy a space heater last year and enclose part of my basement to get the temp up before mine really started growing.
I put ten each in a ziplock bag poked with holes
with a damp paper towel in the fridge for 90 days. Only threw out one that had visible mold. Kept just enough moisture to keep condensation in the bag.
As for seeds I got them from Wayne, wbpdeer, so I'm confident the seeds were good.
Thanks for the offer Bigeight, very generous. If you have any extras I would love to have a few to put into gallon rootmakers to nurse along this year in my fenced garden. I will then plant and cage them next year.
I'm going to focus on starting my orchard this year since my large scale chestnut planting didn't pan out. Anybody have suggestions on planting pear, crabs, and apple tree seedlings in gallon rootmakers in preparation for transplanting next year?
bigeight
5 year old buck +
IMO they didn't have enough moisture to actually germinate. They were more stratisfied in stall mode like I keep mine for 90 days. When I put them in the damp spaghnum, each nut is totally surrounded by the damp spaghnum for 45 days or so in the fridge. It takes a good amount of moisture to penetrate that skin (speculation) and actually wake the nut up.
If yours do not have mold in the trays, and feel like the shells are still attached to the meat (no clicking noise when ya squeeze them) indicating they dried out. I'd toss them back in the fridge surrounded by damp spaghnum and I bet they'd sprout in a few weeks.
If it doesn't work, you aren't out anything and can re use the spaghnum next year :-)
My fall planted trees do better than my spring, so if you were interested in some trees, let me know this fall and we'll hook up then :-)
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I agree with Bigeight. Getting the moisture level right is the key to cold stratification. If there is not enough moisture, stratification slows. If the moisture level drops low enough cold stratification completely stops. Too much moisture and you encourage the growth of mold. If your goal is to maximize germination, letting them produce root radicles in the fridge is probably the best bet. I'm happy with 75% germination rates. Nuts are cheap and I have plenty of 18s. Planting them after 60 days or so with no root radicle started lowers my germination rates but lets me get trees started a month earlier.
Thanks,
Jack
Thanks,
Jack
cavey
5 year old buck +
This was my first and only attempt so far at all this and I had pretty good luck. - through the help of others here on the forum.
With that I think I can also support the longer cold stratification comments, 90 plus days; and the "in damp peat moss" statements as being beneficial...
Started with (I believe) a three pound bag of large eating chestnuts from Chestnut Ridge - not a promo,.. just saying
Nuts came in inside a brown paper bag shipped in a cardboard shipping box, looked good ... I kept the nuts for quite awhile in the bag in the fridge just as they were shipped - that is what the directions on the bag said for keeping them fresh for eating.
Put about 30 nuts layered in very damp peat moss in 3 large zip lock bags with holes punched in the bags ( peat moss was wetted and squeezed by hand to get the excess moisture out - I was worried that it was too damp when I bagged them up). They were left in the lower crisper for 2 months then checked for mold. Tossed maybe three out due to excess mold and just whipped off another 3 or 4 that had some mold on them. I did not prewash any nuts before bagging nor did I do anything special to those that I washed the mold off of other than tap water. After 2 months only a couple of nuts had started with a root radical. Re-layered them in the same damp peat moss but, worried that the crisper was was too cold I moved them up a shelf into the general fridge area. About 30 days later I checked again and almost all had root radicals. Transplanted them into Solo cups with the bottoms punched out for drainage and stacked them on trays in the pantry area (68 degree room temp). Ordered two 4 bulb 4 foot grow lights. Once they started growing out of the soil I moved them down into the basement under grow lights... lights are cycled to stay on for about a total of 12 hours a day with a temp of around 70-75 degrees, when lights are on, at the soil level... this has changed a bit as the trees have grown rapidly and I've had to move the grow lights up above the plants a couple times now. I now have a mini forest in my basement with more trees growing than I expected.
In a nutshell - no pun intended I started with 98 nuts - tossed 2 right away, bagged 96 in peat moss, tossed 3 due to mold after 2 months; 93 were planted into cups after roughly 3 months of cold stratification in damp peat moss - 86 had germinated root radicals at the time of cup planting. At this time I have 84 up and growing under lights in the basement, 20 have been transplanted into 1 gal containers (plain nursery pots - grow pro injection molded black plastic) - need to do the same for the balance.
85% of the nuts I bought are growing
90% of the nuts I actually planted post cold stratification process are growing
I have more than I ever expected and would do things differently but that is another topic beyond this... I just wanted to add what I did and how its turned out.
With that I think I can also support the longer cold stratification comments, 90 plus days; and the "in damp peat moss" statements as being beneficial...
Started with (I believe) a three pound bag of large eating chestnuts from Chestnut Ridge - not a promo,.. just saying
Nuts came in inside a brown paper bag shipped in a cardboard shipping box, looked good ... I kept the nuts for quite awhile in the bag in the fridge just as they were shipped - that is what the directions on the bag said for keeping them fresh for eating.
Put about 30 nuts layered in very damp peat moss in 3 large zip lock bags with holes punched in the bags ( peat moss was wetted and squeezed by hand to get the excess moisture out - I was worried that it was too damp when I bagged them up). They were left in the lower crisper for 2 months then checked for mold. Tossed maybe three out due to excess mold and just whipped off another 3 or 4 that had some mold on them. I did not prewash any nuts before bagging nor did I do anything special to those that I washed the mold off of other than tap water. After 2 months only a couple of nuts had started with a root radical. Re-layered them in the same damp peat moss but, worried that the crisper was was too cold I moved them up a shelf into the general fridge area. About 30 days later I checked again and almost all had root radicals. Transplanted them into Solo cups with the bottoms punched out for drainage and stacked them on trays in the pantry area (68 degree room temp). Ordered two 4 bulb 4 foot grow lights. Once they started growing out of the soil I moved them down into the basement under grow lights... lights are cycled to stay on for about a total of 12 hours a day with a temp of around 70-75 degrees, when lights are on, at the soil level... this has changed a bit as the trees have grown rapidly and I've had to move the grow lights up above the plants a couple times now. I now have a mini forest in my basement with more trees growing than I expected.
In a nutshell - no pun intended I started with 98 nuts - tossed 2 right away, bagged 96 in peat moss, tossed 3 due to mold after 2 months; 93 were planted into cups after roughly 3 months of cold stratification in damp peat moss - 86 had germinated root radicals at the time of cup planting. At this time I have 84 up and growing under lights in the basement, 20 have been transplanted into 1 gal containers (plain nursery pots - grow pro injection molded black plastic) - need to do the same for the balance.
85% of the nuts I bought are growing
90% of the nuts I actually planted post cold stratification process are growing
I have more than I ever expected and would do things differently but that is another topic beyond this... I just wanted to add what I did and how its turned out.
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Be sure to check the tap root when you do your first transplant.
cavey
5 year old buck +
"Be sure to check the tap root when you do your first transplant"
You have been 100% on with this whole deal... 5 of the 20 I have transplanted into 1 gal containers had the taps curling on the bottom, pulled them down and out and fluffed the roots out, I will likely transplant them to 3 gal containers in a bit here (basement to garage) and get them into the ground as soon as we get good weather Which is still a ways off... the growth has been crazy/rapid. I cant get tomatoes to grow this fast
You have been 100% on with this whole deal... 5 of the 20 I have transplanted into 1 gal containers had the taps curling on the bottom, pulled them down and out and fluffed the roots out, I will likely transplant them to 3 gal containers in a bit here (basement to garage) and get them into the ground as soon as we get good weather Which is still a ways off... the growth has been crazy/rapid. I cant get tomatoes to grow this fast
