Can QDM make hunting harder?

[yoderjac]

I think it has for us. When we first bought the place, it was overrun with deer. We had reasonably good cover that was nearing its end but quality food was absent. As soon as we implemented a food plot program, deer were easy pickins. They moved from cover to food plots and you could hunt them anywhere in between. We have continued the food plot program but added large scale timber management with herbicide application and controlled burns. We now have our populations under control and we have increased the Biological Carrying Capacity. Our fawn weights are increasing but archery hunting is becoming much more difficult.

The first week of our season was in the high 70s and low 80s and deer were not moving much. Toward the end of the first week, we had a cold front move through and temps dropped significantly, both highs and lows. The first two days of the cold front, deer were all over me. I had a shooter buck in range (but did not present a shot) and multiple opportunities to harvest does and young bucks but passed. It has been a cool week but I haven't seen a deer all week. They are still using our fields and hardwoods but very unpredictably. I hunt a location and see nothing and the next day when I hunt somewhere else, I get multiple pictures at eh first location. I've been out of sync with the deer all week.

Why? They now have food in cover. Our thinned pines and clear-cuts that have been burned are loaded with native vegetation. There are plenty of acorns this year as well. Deer now have lots of options for both bedding and food. They are as active as ever but much less predictable an much harder to pattern. I know what we are doing is good for deer and wildlife, but it can be frustrating.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Bill]

Toward the end of the first week, we had a cold front move through and temps dropped significantly, both highs and lows. The first two days of the cold front, deer were all over me

Bingo! You have better everything. Food, population, cover and most of all healthy deer.
They don’t have to move every evening to find food because you gave it to them on purpose or by accident.

Now it comes down to things I don’t think we “here, collectively” talk about and that’s hunting strategy.

Once your property is a meca or on the way. The deer are there but they don’t act like we think they should. Years into this I still think they should act like they did before I gave them everything. They don’t, Their takers, no need to come to my clover because I gave them lots of browse on the way.

How to fix the conundrum is where I struggle. It may be just me but I don’t think waiting for the rut to get them running around is the right answer. I’m starting to believe early season temp swings might be really key. Not discounting the rut. But that’s a crap shoot.

Unfortunately I haven’t figured out the right answer just yet. But I believe you’re early season weather swing observation may be a key.

Disclaimer: I’m talking about deer in farm country. Zero clue about north woods roamer or migrators.

 

[SD51555]

I think it sucks the fun out of hunting.

Holding out for that first trophy buck that will never materialize, endless protection for does in an effort to grow the herd to a number that winter, neighbors, and game agencies will never allow anyway, getting bent out of shape about taking a buck before it's a "trophy" by your standards.

How many hardcore QDM'ers also have people in their camp that can enjoy the hunt without having to worry about which deer they can shoot? QDM practiced strictly enough can drive away your entire deer camp.

 

[roymunson]

I think it sucks the fun out of hunting.

Holding out for that first trophy buck that will never materialize, endless protection for does in an effort to grow the herd to a number that winter, neighbors, and game agencies will never allow anyway, getting bent out of shape about taking a buck before it's a "trophy" by your standards.

How many hardcore QDM'ers also have people in their camp that can enjoy the hunt without having to worry about which deer they can shoot? QDM practiced strictly enough can drive away your entire deer camp.

That may be true for some. But I think it's a personality thing. Some people are fine to shoot a middle of the road buck every year because they measure success in terms of whether or not you kill A buck.

Some people want to kill THE buck. It's a way to test themselves and delay gratification that makes things that much more rewarding when it does come together. Just depends what people want out of the experience.

Some people claim it a "successful year" in life if they hang other the same job they did the last 5 and make the same amount and are satisfied with that. Some people are wired to try to push themselves and get more from it. It can be measured in responsibility at work, pay, or prestige.
We need both in the world. To rip 1 view point simply because you have a differing one seems shallow to me.

"Meat hunters" get offended when trophy hunters tell them they should have waited, but are the first to call out a "trophy hunter" for the way they hunt. You get out of life what you put into it, and if you're happy killing a certain deer on your property, that's fine, but don't get on a soapbox for someone who wants something different or more from their experience.

As for the "bucks that never materialize", if you ever swing by NE Ohio, i'll take you to a trophy room that shows those bucks do materialize, but it takes a lot of delayed gratification to get there.

 

[yoderjac]

I think it sucks the fun out of hunting.

Holding out for that first trophy buck that will never materialize, endless protection for does in an effort to grow the herd to a number that winter, neighbors, and game agencies will never allow anyway, getting bent out of shape about taking a buck before it's a "trophy" by your standards.

How many hardcore QDM'ers also have people in their camp that can enjoy the hunt without having to worry about which deer they can shoot? QDM practiced strictly enough can drive away your entire deer camp.

You are spot on. We've tried to strike a balance. We are balancing income from timber with wildlife management, We are balancing improving the local herd with recreation and trying to bring new folks into the sport. There is no worse feeling than sitting in a stand with a kid, watching the excitement on his/her face when a deer appears followed by disappointment that the buck is to small to shoot. We let our novice hunters shoot anything. We try to protect bucks under 3 1/2 years old from our experienced hunters.

Well, people are all unique. I've shot enough deer over my life that passing a young buck for me is no big deal. I used to pass them up for a doe but killing does is getting harder (at least during archery season). Once I harvest a doe and have to deal with all the aftermath of tracking, transporting, cleaning, butchering, and cleanup, it is much easier to pass deer for a while. One thing that can work for and against you is the macho effect. We had some older guys in our group. One was having a tough time getting around. You could tell he had a hard time passing young bucks, and we told him to shoot whatever he wanted. He continued to complain about passing small bucks but he wouldn't shoot them. He has since passed away. I still ask myself if our group decisions and policies had a negative impact on his last years. So, even when we set policies and make exceptions for certain classes of hunters, the consequences are not always clear.

We certainly have had some disunity within the group over time. While I think the lion's share of it is due to us buying our land before the most recent real estate crash and watching the value of our investment fall, some is probably due to our management program. We probably had too high of expectations as to how much and how fast our impact would be on the deer herd. We probably underestimated the cost and time commitment. While overall, I'm happy with our wildlife management results, I'm not sure I would do the same thing over again from the start. The impact on people is generally not factored into QDM.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

I'm just under the full realization that I am a terrible hunter and I'll be the first to admit it.

 

[Nova]

I think it sucks the fun out of hunting.

Holding out for that first trophy buck that will never materialize, endless protection for does in an effort to grow the herd to a number that winter, neighbors, and game agencies will never allow anyway, getting bent out of shape about taking a buck before it's a "trophy" by your standards.

How many hardcore QDM'ers also have people in their camp that can enjoy the hunt without having to worry about which deer they can shoot? QDM practiced strictly enough can drive away your entire deer camp.

I could not disagree more!!! You point out one very small detail of QDM in your post. Trophy deer, which isn't even a part of QDM. QDM is about age and deer health, not about rack size.

It's also about a lot more than just bagging that trophy deer. It's land management, food plot, TSI, and a whole lot more, which to me is just as fun as the hunt itself. QDM is a year round activity not a one time shoot a trophy and go home.

Sorry, but it bugs the crap out of me when people make the very long leap from QDM to trophy hunting and it happens very often. Not even close to the same thing!

 

[yoderjac]

I could not disagree more!!! You point out one very small detail of QDM in your post. Trophy deer, which isn't even a part of QDM. QDM is about age and deer health, not about rack size.

It's also about a lot more than just bagging that trophy deer. It's land management, food plot, TSI, and a whole lot more, which to me is just as fun as the hunt itself. QDM is a year round activity not a one time shoot a trophy and go home.

Sorry, but it bugs the crap out of me when people make the very long leap from QDM to trophy hunting and it happens very often. Not even close to the same thing!

I don't think there is as much of a conflict here as it appears on the surface. One of the legs of QDM is to let young bucks walk to restore the age structure to the herd. After generations of shooting anything with antlers in many states and no does, age and social structures got out of balance. So, passing young bucks is part of QDM. In some cases, the recreational aspects of hunting are more than restores because another leg is keeping populations in balance with the habitat which often means harvesting more does. However there comes a point in the program where populations come back into balance because of both the ongoing doe harvest and improvement in habitat.

We have reached the point where we no longer harvest all does possible. We shoot them only recreationally because we have reduced overall numbers and increased the BCC. All deer have become harder to hunt except for young bucks which were always easy pickins.

So, for some, waiting for that "buck that never shows", may be someone waiting for a trophy. That is an individual decision and not part of QDM. However, it could just as easily be waiting for a deer that meets your QDM policy objectives. In are case, we will not be producing trophy bucks. Trophy class bucks are limited by a number of factors and a big one is dirt. Our dirt won't support many free ranging trophy class bucks. Here we are targeting 3 1/2 year old and older bucks as shooters. When a buck here hits 3 1/2 years, it is a very respectable mature buck and much harder to kill outside the rit. We have clearly increased the number of deer in this age class, but harvest opportunities are far and few between. We have harvested a few over the years but most of our buck harvests have been kids killing the occasional young buck or big 2 1/2 year old deer that were harvest mistakes, or bucks wounded on neighboring properties that come to our land under stress.

I think a lot of hunters would love to kill a mature buck (including me), are fine passing small bucks, but find it less enjoyable to go home empty handed for long periods. When this aspect was filled by doe harvests supporting QDM, QDM was more enjoyable form a hunting perspective for many.

Waiting for the "right deer" may be trophy hunting for some but not for others. Either way, when it is a policy of a program and not just an individual decision, it does have an impact on hunter satisfaction.

,

Jack

 

[SwampCat]

I do everything everyone talks about, passing does and younger bucks, food plots, predator management, etc. But, I have done no timber management. There is a world of bedding area around my land. There are two 80 acre clearcuts that join my land. But, I have the best, easy food in the neighborhood. I have one food plot my wife claims as hers. Nothing special - durana and wheat. It is located pretty much in the middle of the property. My wife saw 18 different bucks in that food plot last year - including three of the four shooters we had on camera. When I bought my place 15 years ago - I started with 12 acres - and a one acre food plot. Now, I am up to 340 acres and have 10 food plots totalling 30 some acres. We kill no more big deer than we did with 12 acres and a one acre food plot. But at least we now have somewhere for everyone to hunt. We also hunt a lot of public land - where we do shoot smaller bucks and does. We like to eat deer meat, too.

 

[Bill]

It's also about a lot more than just bagging that trophy deer. It's land management, food plot, TSI, and a whole lot more, which to me is just as fun as the hunt itself.

I'm with Nova, I'd much rather be sweating on the tractor than getting up early and sitting in a cold tree stand. I've certainly gotten much more enjoyment from doing projects and seeing the fruit of the of the labor than actually hunting. Ultimately hunting is what it's about, but not all it's about.

I can certainly see trophy deer management sucking the fun out it in a club setting. I hunted in a club of 6 people years ago and just the stress of getting 6 to agree on projects that took precedence sucked the fun out it.

Absent a club my farm gets hunted by my brother and I who have pretty similar views on QDM and TDM. We also host a youth Hunter and my son who can shoot whatever moves them.

I average a buck kill about once every three years and manage to get some good videos on the years I don't. That's enough for me. Now if I were going years without a harvest I'd rethink it and lower my standards. Waiting for a monster to "materialize" Would be frustrating particularly in an area where there isn't really any chance of that happening.

I'm always an advocate of hunting the best an area has. if that's a fork horn then that's what you hunt. And never let anyone else tell you different. Success is an individual thing in this game. If you're worried about someone else it would suck! No club experience with QDM or TDM but I would think some hard honest conversations would have to happen.

 

[Nova]

We started QDM 10 plus years ago. Before that everyone was back at deer camp opening day with their 1.5 year old buck by 9am. Lots of fun, but you wait 12 months for deer opener and it's over in 3 hours.

I have buddies that use to come to our camp back then and they come now and say WOW! You guys are the poster for QDM. We have 6 bucks on the wall and pictures every week of great deer. Deer we never even knew existed. It's a great success story that we are all proud to be a part of and it's been a great ride. Things are only going to get better.

Is hunting tougher, sure it is. Older bucks are a lot smarter than 1.5 year olds, but you get to hunt more than 3 hours a year. You can modify QDM to whatever your personal goals are, there are no hard fast rules. The basic let young bucks get older is just that, but you don't have to let them get to 5 and 6 years old if that doesn't fit your enjoyment level. There is no reason under the sun you can't practice QDM to a degree and also have fun for everyone in camp, NONE!

 

[Boll Weevil]

Does QDM make hunting harder...I think so (at least for bucks). We're 7 years into our management plan and one outcome of balancing sex ratios combined with altering buck age structure has yielded more older (and harder to kill) bucks wandering the farm.

 

[Catscratch]

I like to deer hunt, I like habitat management, and I like to plant stuff and watch it grow! I'm perfectly fine eating tag soup so that I can hunt a trophy buck. Chasing trophy deer is part of the fun even if it is seldom fulfilled. Sitting on stand and watching the world go by is the other part of the fun for me. They are two separate things. The 3rd is habitat management. I like it even if deer don't use it. Once again... it's fun.

Kids and friends shoot whatever they want. I place no limits (nor project my own emotions) on other peoples perception of joy. From my point of view; horn porn can be pretty disruptive to a person's well being if they let it be. And trust me... I am addicted to horn porn! I just try to make sure I have fun with my ailment.

 

[roymunson]

I think what I've found is a lot of people may have issues with the A in QDMA. They may not like the organization, but it's hard to argue with the success of it.

We probalby kill does 3:1 or better, and still have plenty of deer. (probably more a testament to our area than our prowess)

It's all about your goals in the woods. If you're happy killing a deer that hasn't reached it's potential fully, that's fine. I'm at a phase in my hunting where I want to kill a certain aged deer. I hunted last night for a 4 year old 8 point that will be lucky to go 130". I'd be thrilled with a shot at him. Someday I may be more discerning and want to kill a certain scored deer, but a 4 year old buck is far more of a challenge than a 3 year old. And that's what trips my trigger. There was a time I'd have been thrilled with a 3 year old.

 

[yoderjac]

Lots of good points made in this thread. And I think striking the proper balance is the key. It seems easier to do with wildlife and habitat than with people. I hunt for many reasons, challenge, connection to something bigger, meat, solitude, connection with kids, the list goes on....QDM is a way to better understand all the interconnections in nature and to some degree reset the balance. During some stages of our QDM, hunting actually got easier. The only ag within about 3 miles is pasture. At one point, when we had poor mast crop years, our food plots were the only game in town. Nature is not static and is always changing. As we are starting to see the yield from larger scale timber management aspects, we see all kinds of consequences. Most are positive, especially for wildlife. Changing and adapting is part of the equation.

One of the reasons I started this thread was to help folks new to QDM have realistic expectations. It is easy for new folks to watch TV shows and read magazine and get excited. There is some good in that in terms of motivation, but it can be offset when unrealistic expectations are not met. QDMA was very successful for many years at being a champion of QDM. Eventually they succumbed to the pressure of the industry to market products and they elevated that above the QDM mission. While I'm no longer a supporter of QDMA as an organization, I'm still fully supportive of QDM.

I think it is important for those of us who have been at this for many years to provide perspective for new folks. Coming into QDM with reasonable expectations will result in a much more sustainable commitment knowing the ups and downs of it.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[roymunson]

One of the reasons I started this thread was to help folks new to QDM have realistic expectations. It is easy for new folks to watch TV shows and read magazine and get excited. There is some good in that in terms of motivation, but it can be offset when unrealistic expectations are not met. QDMA was very successful for many years at being a champion of QDM. Eventually they succumbed to the pressure of the industry to market products and they elevated that above the QDM mission. While I'm no longer a supporter of QDMA as an organization, I'm still fully supportive of QDM.

The TV thing can be a real detriment to things. I'm not that old, but realize that my generation of Millenials lives in a world where "playing the long game" isn't something they're generally interested in. But you watch the Outdoor Channel and you watch a 1/2 hour show and they kill a giant every episode. What's not seen is some of these guys hunting 50 straight days to get that video. Some people don't have the grit or desire to hang in there.

I've found the level of longlasting joy something brings you is directly proportionate to the amount of skin you have in the game. Whether it's sweat equity, time in the field, elbow grease, whatever. A roller coaster is fun, but the joy fades quickly. Being after a buck for 4 years, laboring to create habitat, hang stands, and get that particular deer to use the foodplot that was your brainchild and then be in the right tree at the right time when he shows up means more to me.

How's that for waxing philosophical?

 

[Gator]

Food everywhere will kill your chances of killing deer. Ideally bedding will not contain food or at least very little, thus making the deer move to eat quality food. Laying out a piece of ground to make it very huntable is actually a very difficult thing to do. Most of us tend to add a plot here, hinge cut over here etc without thinking about the big picture or at least not thinking enough about the big picture. If you have a lot of oaks, there's not much you can do in a year like this (in our area of Virginia anyway). The deer just don't have to move much and in my experience seem perfectly happy bedding right there in the oaks regardless of how great a bedroom you have created elsewhere. If we were younger starting with a treeless farm would probably be the easiest way to make the ultimate huntable farm, even then, I'm sure I would mess it up....

 

[j-bird]

The OP comments about lots of food options. I see this every year as I live and hunt in heavy ag country. Corn and soybeans abound, cover crops of radish and cereal grains as well. Toss in the occasional woodlot with a decent mast crop and the deer here can literally eat almost anywhere they want. Part of our QDM programs we increase cover and browse and food to yet further complicate the issue. When the deer can feed anywhere and anytime they want....of course it's going to make hunting them more difficult. It becomes very difficult to find an established pattern. This is where we need to have a plan based on hunting and deer movement. Without the movement or predictable movement....things get even that much harder.

 

[Catscratch]

Not to be rude, but it will sound that way... but you guys that have created a ton of cover and food and are complaining that deer aren't huntable anymore sound like you haven't tried to adapt yourself to the situation. I'm betting that all of you that are having trouble now that you've changed your land haven't changed your hunting methods and are still sitting in trees wishing a deer would walk by. Obviously the deer don't have to travel corridors between bedding and food anymore, so why are you still sitting there? Maybe since the deer adapted you could to.?. Maybe start still hunting or stalking? How about a two man drive? Hunt different times, midday or late morning? It seems to me that most of us have recognized the change, but are so set in our ways that we won't do what's necessary to be successful.

 

[yoderjac]

Food everywhere will kill your chances of killing deer. Ideally bedding will not contain food or at least very little, thus making the deer move to eat quality food. Laying out a piece of ground to make it very huntable is actually a very difficult thing to do. Most of us tend to add a plot here, hinge cut over here etc without thinking about the big picture or at least not thinking enough about the big picture. If you have a lot of oaks, there's not much you can do in a year like this (in our area of Virginia anyway). The deer just don't have to move much and in my experience seem perfectly happy bedding right there in the oaks regardless of how great a bedroom you have created elsewhere. If we were younger starting with a treeless farm would probably be the easiest way to make the ultimate huntable farm, even then, I'm sure I would mess it up....

First, it is great to see you posting here again Gator. Unfortunately, unless folks have very large properties (multiple thousands of acres) and very significant financial resources, we have to make compromises on overall design. We really worked the big picture thing hard. We are well undersized for QDM based on what we actually own. We need to include neighboring properties where hunting is prohibited or limited as sanctuaries to get even close to having enough acreage for QDM. What most folks don't realize is how much scale is required to make a measureable impact on the local herd. So, our first limitation was the location of our sanctuary lands. Next was financial resources. Since we don't have agricultural land to lease our income source comes from selling timber.

So, we have a limitation based on timber value. We need to harvest timber in a sustainable way that benefits wildlife as well. The timber related things that benefit wildlife sometimes work against overall design and huntability. For example, we clearcut a few small hardwood stands. They were low quality hardwoods (mostly scarlet oak) that were at their peak value. They are shallow rooted in our shallow top soil and we were losing them to wind storms anyway. So, the location of these were fixed (but not bad locations). At the same time, we did a pine thinning on about half our pines. In both cases, as soon as the fuel load was low enough we executed controlled burns. This creates quality foods in native cover. It is a great approach in balance. It generated income and increased the BCC of our land, but it makes it hard to hunt.

Still hunting with a bow is beyond my skill level so that technique is off the table, especially with my arthritis. With muzzleloader and firearm hunting, we will still harvest plenty of deer. Those weapons cover a lot more ground for an ethical shot. Without more regular deer patterns during archery season, it will continue to be challenge for the next few years.

An important thing to keep in mind is that sometimes the things that benefit wildlife most or are the best overall balance, can have negative impacts on huntability...at least for the short term. Our thinned pines will eventually canopy again, but by then, we will be thinning and burning the other half of our pines.