Bench graft rootstock size

[AtomApple]

I am looking to order a bulk amount of rootstock. It is only $.24 more each to get a 3/8 over a 1/4. I would like to get the bigger size, but is it more important to match the size of the scion?
Is most Scion typically closer to the 1/4?
where do they measure the size, could a 3/8 be grafted higher up if a smaller Scion is used?

 

[Chainsaw]

I have successfully grafted 240 rootstocks or so to date and unsuccessfully a little more than that so I am still searching for answers myself. From the scions I have seen though, 1/4 inch is a nice size and the most common for good size scions from trees that have been trimmed the year before and fertilized. Some sucker shoots can get to 3/8, or a half inch even and be up to five ft. in length. Scions from wild trees that have never before been trimmed though are generally far less than 1/4 inch. 1/4 is a good all around size rootstock and yes grafting higher up the stem worked as well so far as grafting lower; note trees are only almost one year old so far though. A few larger rootstocks like 3/8 would be nice to have for the larger trunk sucker branch scions. Some of the rootstock bought as 3/8 could push a 1/2 inch and some bought as 1/4 can push 3/8. Generally the 1/4 I bought were 1/4 but some pushed 3/8. This year after looking over my scion selection I ordered all 1/4 inch rootstocks.

And definitely the closer the scion matches the rootstock diameter the better results for me so far. I have noticed though that at least one successful grower uses larger rootstocks than his scions. On the other extreme some of the one year old trees bought last year didn't even have 3/16 inch trunks at their thickest point above or below the graft. They didn't fare very well with the drought we had.

 

[silver_yummies]

I have successfully grafted 240 rootstocks or so to date and unsuccessfully a little more than that so I am still searching for answers myself. From the scions I have seen though, 1/4 inch is a nice size and the most common for good size scions from trees that have been trimmed the year before and fertilized. Some sucker shoots can get to 3/8, or a half inch even and be up to five ft. in length. Scions from wild trees that have never before been trimmed though are generally far less than 1/4 inch. 1/4 is a good all around size rootstock and yes grafting higher up the stem worked as well so far as grafting lower; note trees are only almost one year old so far though. A few larger rootstocks like 3/8 would be nice to have for the larger trunk sucker branch scions. Some of the rootstock bought as 3/8 could push a 1/2 inch and some bought as 1/4 can push 3/8. Generally the 1/4 I bought were 1/4 but some pushed 3/8. This year after looking over my scion selection I ordered all 1/4 inch rootstocks.

And definitely the closer the scion matches the rootstock diameter the better results for me so far. I have noticed though that at least one successful grower uses larger rootstocks than his scions. On the other extreme some of the one year old trees bought last year didn't even have 3/16 inch trunks at their thickest point above or below the graft. They didn't fare very well with the drought we had.

Curious what you do with the grafts in year 1. Do you plant them in a nursery bed and tend to them or are you placing them out in their final resting spot?

ive never grafted before but I have 100 B118 rootstocks coming from Copenhaven farms and am hoping for more like a 80% survival rate and not less than 50%. I went with the 1/4” caliper.

 

[sandbur]

Curious what you do with the grafts in year 1. Do you plant them in a nursery bed and tend to them or are you placing them out in their final resting spot?

ive never grafted before but I have 100 B118 rootstocks coming from Copenhaven farms and am hoping for more like a 80% survival rate and not less than 50%. I went with the 1/4” caliper.

Sorry if you were specifically asking chainsaw. I plant my newly grafted trees in their final location . Care during the first few years is important, such as loosening grafting tape or bands or e tape, thumb pruning of new growth from rootstock once you are fairly sure of success with the graft.

I live where the final planting location is and can do these things.

If final location is different than where you live, I would keep them at home.
Rodent control is important in either location.


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[sandbur]

I have successfully grafted 240 rootstocks or so to date and unsuccessfully a little more than that so I am still searching for answers myself. From the scions I have seen though, 1/4 inch is a nice size and the most common for good size scions from trees that have been trimmed the year before and fertilized. Some sucker shoots can get to 3/8, or a half inch even and be up to five ft. in length. Scions from wild trees that have never before been trimmed though are generally far less than 1/4 inch. 1/4 is a good all around size rootstock and yes grafting higher up the stem worked as well so far as grafting lower; note trees are only almost one year old so far though. A few larger rootstocks like 3/8 would be nice to have for the larger trunk sucker branch scions. Some of the rootstock bought as 3/8 could push a 1/2 inch and some bought as 1/4 can push 3/8. Generally the 1/4 I bought were 1/4 but some pushed 3/8. This year after looking over my scion selection I ordered all 1/4 inch rootstocks.

And definitely the closer the scion matches the rootstock diameter the better results for me so far. I have noticed though that at least one successful grower uses larger rootstocks than his scions. On the other extreme some of the one year old trees bought last year didn't even have 3/16 inch trunks at their thickest point above or below the graft. They didn't fare very well with the drought we had.

What type of rootstock did you use?


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[Chainsaw]

Curious what you do with the grafts in year 1. Do you plant them in a nursery bed and tend to them or are you placing them out in their final resting spot?

ive never grafted before but I have 100 B118 rootstocks coming from Copenhaven farms and am hoping for more like a 80% survival rate and not less than 50%. I went with the 1/4” caliper.

I could be a little high on how many were unsuccessful but not by too much. Losing a bunch had notta to do with rootstock but more to do with serious freezes before and after planting. One day for example the temps were in the forties; I was grafting away and putting them in pails in water and putting those outside close to the door with the intentions to move them to the cool but not frozen lower barn. Also had some out that night that I had moved out into the sun and they had leaves on them. Forgot to move them down to the lower barn and they froze big time that night. On the leafed out ones most of the leaves turned black that night.

And for many after planting had serious freezes that turned leaves black. And then we were hit with the drought and it took me a while to start watering so the really weak ones didn't make it. I figured it was all part of the learning curve and no big deal. Without the freezing the percentage of success would have been substantially higher.

And yes they were planted in a nursery area. Otherwise many more would have been lost to the drought period. In my thread Apples, Apples and More Apples on page 10 post 197 shows our nursery area. Another reason for some failure was using lots of 2 year old wood for scions; due to the most of the trees used for scions being wild and none of them recently trimmed the scion growth was small and short, very plentiful but just too small to use in many cases. Did use some really small scions and some took but some didn't.

Overall though it was the freeze followed by a drought that killed the most.

 

[Chainsaw]

What type of rootstock did you use?


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Rootstock choices weren't all that great when I ordered and I wanted to try different ones. It seems like ten years ago now but it was just last winter that I started the grafting deal. Had to look up to see what rootstocks I had used. For apples the rootstocks used were G.890, P.18, M111, B118 and Antonovka. The Antonovka produced the most live ones but it was I think just a function of when they were grafted, not left out to freeze in buckets, and planted at the end so they missed some of the freezes after planting. This year I'm going with Dolgo and Antonovka; I like the heavy root systems that the seedling rootstock has over the clonal rootstock and that is the reason for me going with Dolgo and Antonovka over the more traditional clonal rootstocks. I also like the idea that if any rootstocks from Dolgo and Antonovka are left ungrafted there is the option of just planting the rootstock and letting it grow with expectations that some of them could grow into good trees. Conversely with the clonal rootstock that would be unlikely.

Your thread got me very interested in using Dolgo last year but there was none available at the time I ordered. This year I got the order in this past fall with Ryan at Blue Hill Wildlife nursery.

And for pears Old Home 333 and Old Home 097 rootstocks were used. This year I did not order any pear rootstocks, want to give the pears a year or two in the ground to see how they survive our winters. Additionally I'm focusing on apples this year. The apples are more familiar to me and are proven here already and it is just easier to just graft apples this year.

 

[sandbur]

Rootstock choices weren't all that great when I ordered and I wanted to try different ones. It seems like ten years ago now but it was just last winter that I started the grafting deal. Had to look up to see what rootstocks I had used. For apples the rootstocks used were G.890, P.18, M111, B118 and Antonovka. The Antonovka produced the most live ones but it was I think just a function of when they were grafted, not left out to freeze in buckets, and planted at the end so they missed some of the freezes after planting. This year I'm going with Dolgo and Antonovka; I like the heavy root systems that the seedling rootstock has over the clonal rootstock and that is the reason for me going with Dolgo and Antonovka over the more traditional clonal rootstocks. I also like the idea that if any rootstocks from Dolgo and Antonovka are left ungrafted there is the option of just planting the rootstock and letting it grow with expectations that some of them could grow into good trees. Conversely with the clonal rootstock that would be unlikely.

Your thread got me very interested in using Dolgo last year but there was none available at the time I ordered. This year I got the order in this past fall with Ryan at Blue Hill Wildlife nursery.

And for pears Old Home 333 and Old Home 097 rootstocks were used. This year I did not order any pear rootstocks, want to give the pears a year or two in the ground to see how they survive our winters. Additionally I'm focusing on apples this year. The apples are more familiar to me and are proven here already and it is just easier to just graft apples this year.

I suspect that in the upper Midwest, traditional rootstock has been Dolgo and maybe some Columbia previously. Baileys has been a major supplier, but is not easy to tell what they have been using.

Thanks for the information. I am impressed with the roots on most of the dolgo.


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[silver_yummies]

Thanks for the follow up and info. I checked out the nursery pic as well. I will be doing something similar and place them in a fenced in garden for the year.

 

[cavey]

I've done 400 plus bench grafts, primarily whip and tongue, with fair amount of funky side graft tries for smaller scions. 300 of my orders were 1/4, and 100 was a size smaller due to a late order. Then maybe a 100 odd field grafts maybe more. The one thing I learned is that Im not an expert just a very good amateur grafter - at least with whip and tongue. I suck at chip budding.
Ball park success on bench 88-94% ish (heavy on the ish) success with the grafts first summer. I usually pot out my grafts then heel them in for winter, almost zero disease issues for me that way and 100% water and care as I can check on them anytime with ease. Then out in the spring or one more year still potted in the nursery. Almost 100% survival of the rootstock even if the graft fails. I always leave a little bit of secondary growth from the root stock - a leaf or small shoot till I know the graft union has taken. In the end after some additional annual mortality from disease, bugs, mice, rabbits, cold (winter test for diff usda zoned scion) and a small child I would say 70%-85% overall survival is a pretty good guess at what in the end makes it out and in the field for the first few years. Till the deer, bear, racoons and voles get their shots in. Then there is that B!##C# Mother Nature.

Your rootstock at 1/4" should be graded as 1/4" and larger to the next size up. So it should be 1/4" plus. I have found that most of my scion is in that range. If I harvest my own then I choose the scion to match. When I have bought scion that came in larger or could only find tiny scion I would move up and down on the Rootstock to get closer to the same diameter or side graft or do a one sided graft.

I have grafted at the top of the rootstock and tight to the roots. That is one thing to remember you can go down near the base of the root stock where the tree dia significantly increases. You just get one shot at it.


You can also ......if you order in bulk. Pre plant some of those rootstock direct to the field for future root stock to scion grafts at a later date. Pssst another little known secret......Bonus move is to let a couple of those rootstocks go to trees. Their apple trees too or crabs. Antys make good wildlife trees and I have a few unknown root stocks that actually have turned out to be great wildlife trees - one hangs late and doesnt taste so bad.
You can also make a stooling bed out of a row of those extra rootstocks to harvest future root stocks should you choose to do only a few in the future. Easier just to buy stock but a maybe fun option.

 

[cavey]

P.s. just as a side note 3/8 is a big root stock. Maybe bigger than what you will need... granted you can graft anything to a bigger rootstock but nothing in general to a smaller one if the scion is to big. Matchable sized scion to RS will make your grafting much much easier.

I believe they measure caliper mid length to lower third ish on the RS. Going to depend on the grader and how they hold them during sorting and the history of your supplier/nursery. You usually get a mix of size as you move up or down from that point. And from my orders the size you choose is the minimum caliper. I always have larger to sort out for my bigger scion. Then at the end of grafting out have to sometimes get creative with what is left. With hand graded bundles of 50 you will get some smaller ones tossed in and some bigger ones... not many but some especially if the growing season was bad or good and trendded in a certain direction.

Yes Matching to the scion size is key. Kind of like what came first the chicken or the egg though.... what do you have in your hand first? Usually the scion but the RS has to ordered early and arrives later in the spring. Its a bit of a guessing game.

 

[sandbur]

I've done 400 plus bench grafts, primarily whip and tongue, with fair amount of funky side graft tries for smaller scions. 300 of my orders were 1/4, and 100 was a size smaller due to a late order. Then maybe a 100 odd field grafts maybe more. The one thing I learned is that Im not an expert just a very good amateur grafter - at least with whip and tongue. I suck at chip budding.
Ball park success on bench 88-94% ish (heavy on the ish) success with the grafts first summer. I usually pot out my grafts then heel them in for winter, almost zero disease issues for me that way and 100% water and care as I can check on them anytime with ease. Then out in the spring or one more year still potted in the nursery. Almost 100% survival of the rootstock even if the graft fails. I always leave a little bit of secondary growth from the root stock - a leaf or small shoot till I know the graft union has taken. In the end after some additional annual mortality from disease, bugs, mice, rabbits, cold (winter test for diff usda zoned scion) and a small child I would say 70%-85% overall survival is a pretty good guess at what in the end makes it out and in the field for the first few years. Till the deer, bear, racoons and voles get their shots in. Then there is that B!##C# Mother Nature.

Your rootstock at 1/4" should be graded as 1/4" and larger to the next size up. So it should be 1/4" plus. I have found that most of my scion is in that range. If I harvest my own then I choose the scion to match. When I have bought scion that came in larger or could only find tiny scion I would move up and down on the Rootstock to get closer to the same diameter or side graft or do a one sided graft.

I have grafted at the top of the rootstock and tight to the roots. That is one thing to remember you can go down near the base of the root stock where the tree dia significantly increases. You just get one shot at it.


You can also ......if you order in bulk. Pre plant some of those rootstock direct to the field for future root stock to scion grafts at a later date. Pssst another little known secret......Bonus move is to let a couple of those rootstocks go to trees. Their apple trees too or crabs. Antys make good wildlife trees and I have a few unknown root stocks that actually have turned out to be great wildlife trees - one hangs late and doesnt taste so bad.
You can also make a stooling bed out of a row of those extra rootstocks to harvest future root stocks should you choose to do only a few in the future. Easier just to buy stock but a maybe fun option.

You mentioned grafting close to the roots.

Last spring, I had a dolgo rootstock that had several good sized ‘branches’ on the root.

I did a root graft on one piece of that root and it grew well. I kept the graft union just at or below dirt level and later on, dug down a bit to remove the grafting and e tape.

Why did I do it? Just to try something new.

The texture of the root is entirely different from the rootstock trunk. I used a cleft graft.


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[AtomApple]

P.s. just as a side note 3/8 is a big root stock. Maybe bigger than what you will need... granted you can graft anything to a bigger rootstock but nothing in general to a smaller one if the scion is to big. Matchable sized scion to RS will make your grafting much much easier.

I believe they measure caliper mid length to lower third ish on the RS. Going to depend on the grader and how they hold them during sorting and the history of your supplier/nursery. You usually get a mix of size as you move up or down from that point. And from my orders the size you choose is the minimum caliper. I always have larger to sort out for my bigger scion. Then at the end of grafting out have to sometimes get creative with what is left. With hand graded bundles of 50 you will get some smaller ones tossed in and some bigger ones... not many but some especially if the growing season was bad or good and trendded in a certain direction.

Yes Matching to the scion size is key. Kind of like what came first the chicken or the egg though.... what do you have in your hand first? Usually the scion but the RS has to ordered early and arrives later in the spring. Its a bit of a guessing game.

Thanks for the replies, it’s kinda what I expected, but confirmation is always a plus. I am looking at williamette for ordering, have not confirmed yet if they will fulfill a 50 order or if their minimum is higher. They do state, as you say, 1/4 is the minimum for 1/4 orders. So they would range from a 1/4 up to a cun+ hair under 3/8.

 

[silver_yummies]

Thanks for the replies, it’s kinda what I expected, but confirmation is always a plus. I am looking at williamette for ordering, have not confirmed yet if they will fulfill a 50 order or if their minimum is higher. They do state, as you say, 1/4 is the minimum for 1/4 orders. So they would range from a 1/4 up to a cun+ hair under 3/8.

Check out Copenhaven Farms as well for rootstock. I was going to go through Willamette as well but found Copenhaven quite a bit cheaper overall. They’ll do qty 50 BUT it’ll be $2.50 per rootstock anything under 100 pieces. So for a few bucks more, might as well just get 100 of them and practice away! FYI I have zero affiliation with Copenhaven, just wanted to throw another option out there.

 

[cavey]

You mentioned grafting close to the roots.

Last spring, I had a dolgo rootstock that had several good sized ‘branches’ on the root.

I did a root graft on one piece of that root and it grew well. I kept the graft union just at or below dirt level and later on, dug down a bit to remove the grafting and e tape.

Why did I do it? Just to try something new.

The texture of the root is entirely different from the rootstock trunk. I used a cleft graft.


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a few years ago I watched a video with a commercial nursery operation - grafting nothing but 3-4" root sections to scion in bulk and packing them away in saw dust for cold storage.

 

[cavey]

Thanks for the replies, it’s kinda what I expected, but confirmation is always a plus. I am looking at williamette for ordering, have not confirmed yet if they will fulfill a 50 order or if their minimum is higher. They do state, as you say, 1/4 is the minimum for 1/4 orders. So they would range from a 1/4 up to a cun+ hair under 3/8.

I order from Williamette, good people - quality stock and I believe they will fill you 50 count order. They do my 100-150 each year. They will reserve your order count automatically and call you to see if you want them for the next year before returning them back to regular inventory. You shouldn't have any issues with them.

 

[AtomApple]

Check out Copenhaven Farms as well for rootstock. I was going to go through Willamette as well but found Copenhaven quite a bit cheaper overall. They’ll do qty 50 BUT it’ll be $2.50 per rootstock anything under 100 pieces. So for a few bucks more, might as well just get 100 of them and practice away! FYI I have zero affiliation with Copenhaven, just wanted to throw another option out there.

I am looking at the Antonovka seedling rootstocks, they are $1.24 for the 1/4“, plus shipping & handlong.
the Clonal RS (like b118) is a little more.

 

[cavey]

I have ordered both from them, all good. 3 years of Anty and one with b118. The b118 will have a darker red like cambium layer so dont be freaked out if when you start grafting into those, that you dont see that nice healthy thin green layer. Its normal - at first glance I thought I had dead RS. I had no issues with b118 but went back to Anty for its larger tree size. They have been super hardy RS on my clay ground here in 4b NW Wisconsin.