Illinois joins the crossbow list

[j-bird]

Here is the way I see it. Most states actually call it "Archery season"....not Bow. Cross bow is included because it's technology, the projectile, the killing distances and the like are so very similar....not the same....but SIMILAR. This is just like "FIREARMS season". In many states they do not call if rifle or shotgun or handgun season.....some even include muzzle-loading guns in their "firearms season". Again....very similar technology, and projectile, but not the same between a cap and ball muzzle-loading rifle and say model 700 Remmington with a huge scope in 308win! Do some weapons take more "skill" or "effort" to learn to be proficient with.....I think so. Does it mean we need to get all worked up because one person chooses on method while another chooses something else.....I don't think so.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I just get so tired of some who make the point that crossbows don't require the same level of 'skill' or commitment that a compound bow does. As one who hunts with both I can assure you there is no argument as far as that is concerned. .

So....just so there are no misunderstandings, are you suggesting that crossbows offer no advantage over compound bows?

 

[jray57]

Crossbows do not require the same level of "skill" and commitment as a compound. Compounds do not require the same level of "skill "and commitment as a recurve. They are all archery.

 

[Bill]

I use one, it is easier.
But it is also different and has unique challenges. I find them very dangerous. No way I'd ever put one in a young kids hands. To me that's asking for the kid to loose fingers even if an adult is right there. OSHA would never allow a contraption like an X bow in the work place.

Their heavy and clunky. No way near as easy to maneuver in a tree stand then a traditional bow. Set up is a PITA (at least it was for me) using expandable Broad heads is a No No with a short bolt. Lots of guys do, but shouldn't.

In many ways I see them as harder to use than a vertical bow. With one BIG differance, their deadly accurate if set up right.

I'm with Catscratch, if I get within 25 to 30 yards of a mature buck, I won regardless of how he hits the ground.
I realize that's a personal opinion but everyone gets one of those.

 

[bjseiler]

"using expandable Broad heads is a No No with a short bolt. Lots of guys do, but shouldn't."

Can you expand on that? Maybe I'm doing something stupid here. Using 20" bolts with expandable broadheads right now.

In terms of kids and danger, I would agree. I let them shoot from a bench where I was basically holding their left hand so it could not go up....

No noise - I meant in comparison to a gun which some non-hunters just do not like.
Accuracy - I was talking about from a bench or from shooting out of a box blind where I can rest on the window.

 

[Bill]

using expandable Broad heads is a No No with a short bolt. Lots of guys do, but shouldn't."

Not as good as these guys can. Up to 50% loss of energy.
http://www.crossbowmen.com/index.htm.broadhead-accuracy.html

 

[yoderjac]

There is always energy loss using any expandable compared to a fixed broadhead because some of the energy is spent to open the broadhead. How much energy is a function of the broadhead design. With deer sized game and proper shot placement when shot from a modern compound bow with at least 50 lbs draw weight, an inch and 1/2 expandable of a reasonable design will provide a full pass-thru of a deer sized animal. Crossbows have significantly more kenetic energy than most compound bow setups. Kenetic energy is mass times velocity squared. Most crossbows shoot as fast or faster then most compound bows and do so with heavier arrows. Thus, they have more kenetic energy. Shorter arrows do lose stability (and some kenetic energy due to the increased friction) at long range, but this occurs far beyond a practical hunting distance of about 30 yards. In practical terms, when hunting deer with proper shot placement at reasonable ranges, crossbows present less of an energy loss issue than most compound bows.

The biggest issue I've seen with using expandable broadheads with crossbows, is that the draw weight on most is high and the power stroke is short compared to a compound bow. This means more energy is transferred across a shorter distance. The combination of properly splined arrows and the rail resolve the arrow flex issues associated with this. However, many expandable broadheads, designed for the smoother transfer of energy that compound bows have, can open prematurely affecting arrow flight. If you use expandable broadheads you need to make sure they don't open in flight. They now make expandable broadheads designed to handle the shock of a crossbows energy transfer.

As for being dangerous for kids, I think that was more so true with the older crossbows. Many of the new ones build the stock in such a way that you can't really reach your thumb up into the string path. Safety is important for everyone, especially kids. However, firearms, knives, and even cell phones and video games can be dangerous in unsupervised hands of a kid. With proper training and supervision, I think crossbows can be used safely by kids.


Thanks,

Jack

 

[North Mo]

I started using a crossbow last year. My own personal reason was the desire for a more sure kill. Everyone's experiences are different and my own were that after 43 years of archery hunting killing many deer, turkey's and a bull elk was that I wanted more penetration with the chance of a pass thru shot even if the arrow hit bone. After research I bought a Scorpyd Ventilator Extreme from Borkholder Archery in Indiana. I paid the extra to have them set it all up. After target practice and killing a coyote and a good 10 point with it last year I can say it has a very noticeable increase in impact energy and penetration in fact it drives the bolt completely thru the 12 inch thick target that my 70lb Mathews compound penetrates around 5 to 6 inches. The buck I hit last year was a complete pass thru and the upper front leg bone on the off side was broken by the bolt as it exited. My confidence that I will have a quick kill and a short tracking job is way higher. It is heavy but with reverse limbs pretty well balanced. I agree with Bill about the danger. I have really made a conscious effort to at all times keep my support hand on the forward grip and not the barrel or rail, even with a generous guard a thumb or finger tip could be amputated.

 

[j-bird]

North Mo - does mention something that I have seen as well. IF you get a crossbow. Get a crossbow target. A crossbow will easily penetrate well beyond the back side of most normal archery targets!

 

[bbcoach]

We as hunters, went through this when muzzleloader/blackpowder, allowed in lines. Now it's bows/crossbows. We need to understand one very important point, WE ARE A DYING BREED!!!!! In 50 years, I don't see hunting being a part of our heritage. People aren't interested in hunting as they were 30-50 years ago. Younger generations aren't as accepting of this sport and they sure don't want to spend time doing it. My point is we are becoming a minority and we need to find ways of making it easier to enjoy this sport not bickering over minor rule changes. Let's make it easier for someone to enjoy the sport we LOVE not turning someone away.

 

[Tap]

We as hunters, went through this when muzzleloader/blackpowder, allowed in lines. Now it's bows/crossbows. We need to understand one very important point, WE ARE A DYING BREED!!!!! In 50 years, I don't see hunting being a part of our heritage. People aren't interested in hunting as they were 30-50 years ago. Younger generations aren't as excepting of this sport and they sure don't want to spend time doing it. My point is we are becoming a minority and we need to find ways of making it easier to enjoy this sport not bickering over minor rule changes. Let's make it easier for someone to enjoy the sport we LOVE not turning someone away.

I agree. But it seems to me that the rate that we are dying has a direct parallel to the rampid introduction of "stuff" into our "sport" (and I content hunting is not a sport).
The easier we make it, the faster we lose the challenge and interest.
We've come to the point where we've convinced ourselves that we need to allow toddlers to participate in the taking of a critter.
I don't know guys...I truly believe that we are killing ourselves.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[Catscratch]

I'm around hunting age kids a lot. I understand what Tap is saying and agree to an extent, but feel that there is a different culprit out there keeping kids from hunting. It's the difficulty and elusiveness of land to hunt. I personally feel that hunting land is harder to come by now than any other time in history. Getting permission by knocking on doors is a longshot, and paying/leasing is not an option for a 15yr old. I've personally heard from many kids who were hunters that quit because they lost their places to hunt. That is the challenge many are unwilling or unable to tackle.

 

[yoderjac]

I agree. But it seems to me that the rate that we are dying has a direct parallel to the rampid introduction of "stuff" into our "sport" (and I content hunting is not a sport).
The easier we make it, the faster we lose the challenge and interest.
We've come to the point where we've convinced ourselves that we need to allow toddlers to participate in the taking of a critter.
I don't know guys...I truly believe that we are killing ourselves.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

The rate at which we are dying is directly related to the rate at which we are dying compared to the rate we are being born. Not much we can do about the death rate, but plenty we can do about our birth rate. Unless you are hunting solely for food and without it you would struggle to eat, it is either recreational or managerial. Managerial hunting is focused on efficiently, effectively, and safely removing animals to achieve a balance. Recreational hunting is primarily for enjoyment. That doesn't mean there is not overlap. You can certainly enjoy management hunting. When I archery hunt in the suburbs to control population, I can enjoy it very much, but I'll pass bucks for does every time and I'm more focused on a quick clean kill than on challenge. If that means using a crossbow over a compound or a compound over a recurve, I will. When I'm hunting for recreation, the challenge is part of the balance, but ethics are just as important. I'm not confident in my shooting skills with a recurve and I won't hunt with it until I am. I limit my distance with a compound even more than a crossbow because the increased challenge means there are more things that can go wrong.

I would say that hunting is a sport. It is a consumptive sport, but should not be a competitive sport. I certainly understand your concerns and I have them as well when I see competition creeping into hunting. However, when it comes to changes in equipment that open the door to increasing recruitment or extending the life of existing hunters, I'll all for it. As long as I have the option not to use it, I can get all of the challenge my ethics can accept.

I would pose this question: If we complain that allowing different equipment into our season makes it too easy for others, are we not competing for the resource? If we don't see hunting as competitive, one would think that using more primitive equipment than is permitted during the season would increase the challenge. For example, when I was younger, I would extend my bowhunting season by using a bow during our muzzleloader season (legal in my state). I was purposefully limiting myself compared to others in the woods to increase the challenge. I'm passed that point where challenge is primary and I now switch over to a muzzleloader when the season begins.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[NWWI]

I know of too many people who go buy a crossbow at a big box store and go out hunting. In the past to be a bow hunter you actually had to practice and learn the craft from fletching arrows to aligning broad heads. When I was 12 if I couldnt pull the minimum draw weight I practiced until I could. Just one more way of instant gratification for lazy people. I know what I say doesn't stand for all who use them, but why would an able bodied adult use one unless they are looking for the quick fix.

 

[Bill]

I know what I say doesn't stand for all who use them, but why would an able bodied adult use one unless they are looking for the quick fix.

Can't speak for all able bodied people. Had a bum shoulder last year when I started with one. Since then the shoulder has healed enough that I dont need it, but Im still using it.

When I was 13, I picked up my first recurve at Boy Scout camp. I shot that thing until my fingers blistered. In a week I was outshooting the Counselor . He asked me to be a CIT (counselor in training). Spent the next 5 weeks teaching and shooting. By the end of summer I could hit Pepsi caps at 20 yards instinctive with fingers.

From there I was invited to go deer hunting and loved it. Worked for the local archery shop after hours fletching arrows in exchange for gear. So I get the hard knocks thing.

I'm willing to bet I can pick up my Elite cam bow with sights and a release and be proficient on the first shot after leaving it sit for 2 years. For me the problem is there is a difference between proficient and deadly accurate with muscle memory that takes over at the second you need it.

No more instinctive and fingers for me. (Though it would be fun to try). I might return to a verticals bow, but I'm not in a hurry to. I'd rather spend my free time on things other than practicing with a bow. I can live with Lazy. I'd rather call it priorities, but lazy is probably closer to the truth.

Please don't take my next statement as a jab at you, it not, it's just how I feel about the whole Xbow debate.

I really don't care if someone doesn't think I should use one for "whatever" reason. As long as it's deemed legal I'll use it. I can live with people thinking less of me and sleep well at night. Lord knows it won't be the first time someone looked down their nose at me.

On a side note, be careful calling for a separate season for them. It wouldn't bother "me" to have a separate season at all.
But I bet some guys would be mighty pissed if they did separate them and Xbow season just happened to get the rut....

 

[Tap]

When I try to defend what bow season used to be and what I wish it still was, I'm not attacking (or supporting) the person behind the weapon. My stance is that I truly believe that in the long run, we are losing our bow season because we hunters keep demanding higher technology. I didn't say hunting opportunities, I said bow season. (We can easily increase hunting opportunities by legalizing more weapons throughout the entire season.)

For a lot of us, this debate just comes down to what your vision is for what the season is (or what it should be based on the establishment and history of bowhunting).
For many years, bowhunting was well defined based on the equipment and it's difficulties. It was not defined as to be an all inclusive endeavor. You could either do it or you couldn't. You could either join bowhunting or not. But it was up to the person to pursue bowhunting, not the other way around where bowhunting had to morph in order to tailor itself to the hunter. That's where we are today. Bowhunting has morphed and will continue to do so to the point where it will be unrecognizable. We're almost to that point now.
I begrudgingly accept the fact that the legalization of ultra high technology has engrained itself in a primitive "sport". I resist the legalization of these weapons, but once they are legalized, I realize they are here to stay.

While bowhunting is not nearly as important as many other societal struggles (like what defines a marriage, a baby or a family or gender), we continue to change the meaning and essence of our language and institutions. I'm very alarmed at the direction our society is headed because of political correctness and I believe that certain things should remain rooted. I believe in the roots of bowhunting and I'm trying to preserve the spirit of that great hunting method.

I too have had some health issues. Rheumatoid and Osteoarthritis, torn rotator cuffs, torn bicep, and carpal tunnel syndrome. I can still effectively hunt with my recurve. I realize that not everyone is capable for fighting through injuries and disease and moving to high tech equipment is a hard choice for them to make.
At the same time, I realize that there are those that will use any and all advancements the minute they are legalized. They will toss bowhunting into the ash heap of history the second they can trade archery for gunpowder.

When I can no longer shoot my bow, I will then have to wait for firearm season. I haven't, and won't demand that equipment legalization change to suit my needs or desires.

 

[KDdid]

Maybe I'm way off here, but the trend I see is the gradual stretching of firearms ( the most efficient weapon) seasons into the majority of hunting days in the name of reduced deer numbers. I see a lot of states increasing firearms opportunities, often at the expense of special weapons seasons.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

I know of too many people who go buy a crossbow at a big box store and go out hunting. In the past to be a bow hunter you actually had to practice and learn the craft from fletching arrows to aligning broad heads. When I was 12 if I couldnt pull the minimum draw weight I practiced until I could. Just one more way of instant gratification for lazy people. I know what I say doesn't stand for all who use them, but why would an able bodied adult use one unless they are looking for the quick fix.

Your post nailed it....this is the modern face of hunting. Take to the woods on your brand new Quiet Cat electric bike in your brand new fancy camo...with every imaginable gadget...Ozonics, calls, spays, lures, decoys, GPS...sit in a blind all day protected from the rain and wind...surf the net and post epic selfies when you're bored...and peep through a hole overlooking a pile or corn with your brand new crossbow. Then go home and tell everybody on the forums how hard you've been hunting.

Larry Benoit would be rolling over in his grave....

 

[H20fwler]

I have been bow hunting since the early 80's, tried the crossbows a little twenty years ago it's not my thing but I sure don't have any issues with anyone that uses one. I don't get why compound bow hunters think it is so difficult to get a compound sighted in or to shoot? I get a new bow and within an hour am pretty much dialed in from 10-60 yards...to say shooting a compound is somehow so difficult is a stretch, it's harder than a crossbow but not much.

 

[Tree Spud]

I have been bow hunting since the early 80's, tried the crossbows a little twenty years ago it's not my thing but I sure don't have any issues with anyone that uses one. I don't get why compound bow hunters think it is so difficult to get a compound sighted in or to shoot? I get a new bow and within an hour am pretty much dialed in from 10-60 yards...to say shooting a compound is somehow so difficult is a stretch, it's harder than a crossbow but not much.

LOL!!!! Then why are hunters flocking to crossbows?

Saying compounds are only slightly more difficult to use than a crossbow is like saying riding a bike 20 miles is only slightly harder than riding a motor cycle the same distance. Let's see, a crossbow ...

• Requires much less physical strength or training to hold & aim
• Can use a bench rest or a tripod to hold it even while shooting
• Do not have to draw and hold to shoot (CB you can pre-draw)
• Drawn CB can be held indefinitely
• Can use a powered or red dot scope (veritical bow requires ability interpret 3-5 pins through a peep site)
• Scope, (if high quality) will allow CB in low light conditions where a peep & pins cannot be used
• Can rest CB butt stock against your shoulder
• No worry about string catching clothing

I have been using a compound for 20 years now. Shot a buddies CB once without any training. At 50 yards I put my 1st 3 bolts in an 8" pie plate without any effort at all.

I was sitting at a picnic table ... wasn't actually in real world hunting conditions like the guy below