Fertilzer increases tonage :)

[WTNUT]

There are some on here who don't fertilize any more than is necessary or maybe not at all. Heck, I even fall into that category from time to time. Fast forward to this year, It had been a few years since I dotted the i's and crossed the t's with fertilizer on clover, brassicas or grains. I NEVER skimp on corn. This fall with no corn planted, I gave the clover a healthy dose of Potash and Phosphorus (max recommended by soil tests). Wow I forgot how much that does. I thought the clover were hitting it hard and keeping it cropped. Well it was not getting enough fuel so to speak. Then with the brassicas I did not get the second dose of N spread. Last weekend I notice the brassicas next to the plot screens was substantially further along than the rest of the plots. That is because I had spread plenty of N for the screens and there was a wider path spread than the screen occupied. The brassicas benefitted from that. Not rocket science here but at times you may be better off planting the acreage you can fertilize and get the same tonage as you would with more acreage and less fertilizer. Time, seed, and fuel may be more money than less acreage and more fertilizer. Just a thought.


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[Smallplot]

Without fuel the car does not go very far. Food plots and Ag crops are the same. Here is a late planted brassica plot planted with a good amount of nutrients and following a natural nitrogen banking crop of med red clover.

While the plot is way behind, just look at the plants that had a head start!

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[bbcoach]

Spot on. One other thing to mention is liming. If we don't keep the PH at the optimal level (normally around 6.5) then that fertilize we put down will not get to the plant. It is bound up in the soil. So take your soil samples and follow the recommendations!

 

[yoderjac]

There are some on here who don't fertilize any more than is necessary or maybe not at all. Heck, I even fall into that category from time to time. Fast forward to this year, It had been a few years since I dotted the i's and crossed the t's with fertilizer on clover, brassicas or grains. I NEVER skimp on corn. This fall with no corn planted, I gave the clover a healthy dose of Potash and Phosphorus (max recommended by soil tests). Wow I forgot how much that does. I thought the clover were hitting it hard and keeping it cropped. Well it was not getting enough fuel so to speak. Then with the brassicas I did not get the second dose of N spread. Last weekend I notice the brassicas next to the plot screens was substantially further along than the rest of the plots. That is because I had spread plenty of N for the screens and there was a wider path spread than the screen occupied. The brassicas benefitted from that. Not rocket science here but at times you may be better off planting the acreage you can fertilize and get the same tonage as you would with more acreage and less fertilizer. Time, seed, and fuel may be more money than less acreage and more fertilizer. Just a thought.


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I'm on the opposite track. I started using traditional high-input farming techniques. They clearly provide a quick short-term response at a high cost. Over time, I've found yield to actually work against my objectives. If deer are wiping out a high yield sizeable field, it is speaking to a larger problem. For most, that isn't a problem which means all the yield left in the field did not end up in the bellies of deer. I've come to believe that a broader distribution of quality food over more acreage at lower cost actually benefits deer more. I find that groups of related does tend to anchor around individual small plots. They require some level of special separation from other doe groups. So, having a broader distribution over more acreage tends to increase the number of family groups using our farm. The broader distribution of food over acreage also creates more edges which improves native foods and travel corridors.

Achieving this on the same or even decreasing budget over time is possible with a different approach. It starts with maintaining and improving soil health using the principles advocated by Ray the Soil Guy. You certainly right about pH and not skimping on lime. Fertilizer is a different story. By improving nutrient cycling in the soil I've been able to reduce fertilizer significantly. This requires a different view of crops and weeds. I start by avoiding monocultures where possible and selecting complementary crops. Next is becoming much more "weed" tolerant. Yes, some weeds really are problematic and must be dealt with, but many are great deer food, even better than our crops in some cases. While my yield in terms of crops per acre is down, my total amount of crop is about the same, and the amount of deer food has increased significantly.

So, I'm on the opposite tract, more acreage, less fertilizer, and lower cost are yielding more deer food and more social groups using the farm.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Powder]

Jack,
I shouldn't speak for the OP but I think you are doing exactly what he's saying. I did not take his comments as saying we should fix our problems with fertilizer. He was simply saying you need to fertilize appropriately for your fields. As you improve soil health of a field it allows you to spend less time and $$$ (fertilizer) on that particular field and shift those resources to creating and maintaining more/other fields.

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
I shouldn't speak for the OP but I think you are doing exactly what he's saying. I did not take his comments as saying we should fix our problems with fertilizer. He was simply saying you need to fertilize appropriately for your fields. As you improve soil health of a field it allows you to spend less time and $$$ (fertilizer) on that particular field and shift those resources to creating and maintaining more/other fields.

Perhaps I misunderstood the OP, but here is where I see the difference: What does "fertilize appropriately for your fields" mean? For most, and for me when I first started, it means following the soil test recommendations. I'm not sure what it means to the OP or any individual, but I've come to fall well out of the mainstream over time.

Soil test fertilizer recommendations are aimed at farmers and they include a lot of assumptions that don't apply to food plots. First, farmers want to maximize yield. That is not one of my objectives. For the most part, farmers plant monocultures and do so because that fits with harvest equipment and they harvest, we don't.

Most soil tests don't measure N and most that food plotters use don't even collect the necessary information to estimate banked N. So as far as an N recommendation goes, it is based solely on the requirements of the crop. P and K recommendations are based on a combination of measured levels and crop requirement.

Where possible, I use mixes that contain complementary plants. If you give you soil test results to 5 soil scientists along with the list of components and percentages in a mix and ask for a fertilizer recommendation, you will get 5 different recommendations.

This is not to say there is no place for fertilizer; there is. It is just not the same place it is for farming which is where we gravitate. When farmers harvest, they remove a lot from the field. We don't harvest. The only thing that leaves our fields is what deer eat and most of it is recycled in the form of droppings. It is all part of nutrient cycling.

I guess I see fertilizer as something I use in moderation because my soils have not been restored to full health yet. Different soils have different levels of underlying fertility. Farmers can sustain artificially increasing soil fertility because they can sell the crop for enough to cover their input cost and make a small profit in our system. Unless you are selling hunts, which we don't, it doesn't make sense for deer managers to do that. Instead, I think it makes sense to restore the soil health to level that is sustainable. In some cases, the soil may be in fine condition, but that is not the case on my place.

I'm not trying to disagree, because there are many approaches. I'm just adding my perspective for consideration. It has certainly changed over time.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Smallplot]

And to go a bit further on what Jack mentioned. Speaking of soil health, most food plots are planted in the conventional way which leads to soil degradation just from tillage. This can bind up certain parts of the soil structure, some of which can be isolated with more comprehensive soil tests, while others are based on soil types and different aspects of nutrition interaction within the soil.

Having said that someone who is planting into a healthy soil, like the soils Ray the soil guy shows, less input is necessary to get the same outcome because the plants are better able to use the existing nutrients. Whereas someone planting into soils worked each year typically have to fertilize heavier to reach the same usable levels after the specific nutrients reach the correct formulation for uptake by plants. Soil biology is an interesting thing to study.

In Jacks answer I kind of agree with most of what he is saying but pointedly key in on one aspect I don't think he specifically mentioned. Healthier soil and having available nutrients leads to healthier plants. Healthier plants handle stresses better with quicker rebound from things like low moisture, constant browsing, and disease. Leaf tissue samples during the growth stages of a plants life is a more accurate way to taylor a specific fertilization program as it shows what the plants are deficient in at different growth stages again looking for the healthiest plant in the long run.


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[BuckSutherland]

Perhaps I misunderstood the OP, but here is where I see the difference: What does "fertilize appropriately for your fields" mean? For most, and for me when I first started, it means following the soil test recommendations. I'm not sure what it means to the OP or any individual, but I've come to fall well out of the mainstream over time.

Soil test fertilizer recommendations are aimed at farmers and they include a lot of assumptions that don't apply to food plots. First, farmers want to maximize yield. That is not one of my objectives. For the most part, farmers plant monocultures and do so because that fits with harvest equipment and they harvest, we don't.

Most soil tests don't measure N and most that food plotters use don't even collect the necessary information to estimate banked N. So as far as an N recommendation goes, it is based solely on the requirements of the crop. P and K recommendations are based on a combination of measured levels and crop requirement.

Where possible, I use mixes that contain complementary plants. If you give you soil test results to 5 soil scientists along with the list of components and percentages in a mix and ask for a fertilizer recommendation, you will get 5 different recommendations.

This is not to say there is no place for fertilizer; there is. It is just not the same place it is for farming which is where we gravitate. When farmers harvest, they remove a lot from the field. We don't harvest. The only thing that leaves our fields is what deer eat and most of it is recycled in the form of droppings. It is all part of nutrient cycling.

I guess I see fertilizer as something I use in moderation because my soils have not been restored to full health yet. Different soils have different levels of underlying fertility. Farmers can sustain artificially increasing soil fertility because they can sell the crop for enough to cover their input cost and make a small profit in our system. Unless you are selling hunts, which we don't, it doesn't make sense for deer managers to do that. Instead, I think it makes sense to restore the soil health to level that is sustainable. In some cases, the soil may be in fine condition, but that is not the case on my place.

I'm not trying to disagree, because there are many approaches. I'm just adding my perspective for consideration. It has certainly changed over time.

Thanks,

Jack

Jack,


I get high most nights and then check out HT talk just before bed and drink a few beers to unwind from my two jobs, 3 kids, and bitch for a wife. You drivel on too much in 99% of your post. Could you help me out and start summing them up in a sentence or two so I can maybe want to start reading them?



Thanks,

Buck

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,


I get high most nights and then check out HT talk just before bed and drink a few beers to unwind from my two jobs, 3 kids, and bitch for a wife. You drivel on too much in 99% of your post. Could you help me out and start summing them up in a sentence or two so I can maybe want to start reading them?



Thanks,

Buck

I'm not quite sure that is the kind of help you need. HT does have an ignore function that may temporarily reduce your aggravation.

 

[broom_JM]

Jack,


I get high most nights and then check out HT talk just before bed and drink a few beers to unwind from my two jobs, 3 kids, and bitch for a wife. You drivel on too much in 99% of your post. Could you help me out and start summing them up in a sentence or two so I can maybe want to start reading them?



Thanks,

Buck

You say you take drugs, get drunk, and then have a short attention span? Maybe long, insightful posts aren't the problem?

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[trampledbyturtles]

Ha

No offense to any party, but I thought it was kinda funny,
I viewed it as a bit of comic relief in-between the stress of daily life.
Maybe a little bit on the blunt side - ba dum tss.
I do read an appreciate most of Jacs stuff, he has helped generate some neat topics now an in past threads

But there are defiantly two sides to this coin in the fertilizer argument department.

 

[tooln]

What no one can take a joke.

 

[Catscratch]

Lol, that caught me off guard! (and was funny).

I'm in between on the fert thing. I like to fertilize but if I miss a yr it isn't a big deal. I Throw n Mow, create no soil disturbance, plant for organic matter, and try to use complementary plants (that includes non-invasive weeds). The seasons that I don't get around to fertilizing doesn't seem to affect the plants much.

 

[WTNUT]

Checking back in, I don't know a great deal about fertilizer but I do know this: When I fertilize at or very close to the amount recommended in my soil tests my crops do really well. When I cut back on the fertilizer they don't do so well, and don't produce nearly as much. In my situation I am looking to maximize the yield on the acreages I plant. I do that because I don't want to plant any more acres than I have to plant. I have kind of lost sight of that goal the last few years.


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[yoderjac]

Checking back in, I don't know a great deal about fertilizer but I do know this: When I fertilize at or very close to the amount recommended in my soil tests my crops do really well. When I cut back on the fertilizer they don't do so well, and don't produce nearly as much. In my situation I am looking to maximize the yield on the acreages I plant. I do that because I don't want to plant any more acres than I have to plant. I have kind of lost sight of that goal the last few years.


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Nothing wrong with that. I think in many places the soils have been impacted so much that restoring the natural nutrient cycling ability can take many years. Beyond that some soils are just more naturally fertile than others. I will say that my reduction in fertilizer was not an over-night thing and I still use fertilizer. One nice thing about this forum is that we can compare and contrast different approaches.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Boll Weevil]

One more data point to add to the dialogue...I never fertilized my clover patches although I did initially lime at establishment. All I do is mow/spray to manage competition and like Jack, although my plots are pretty clean am not overly concerned with sustaining a pure monoculture.

 

[WTNUT]

Let me add something that is getting lost. If we are talking about clover plots, then you are more likely to get away without fertilizer. It grows in my yard and there has never been a drop of fertilizer in my yard. If we are talking about corn, I want to see someone grow corn without fertilizer and then tell me how they did it. P.S. When I say grow corn I mean produce nice full ears of corn, not just stalks.


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[j-bird]

Let me add something that is getting lost. If we are talking about clover plots, then you are more likely to get away without fertilizer. It grows in my yard and there has never been a drop of fertilizer in my yard. If we are talking about corn, I want to see someone grow corn without fertilizer and then tell me how they did it. P.S. When I say grow corn I mean produce nice full ears of corn, not just stalks.


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If I pull anything from this thread it is you are showing that you can feed deer on one acre with proper soil health while another plotter not interested in proper liming and fertilization may require 2 or even 3 acres to provide the same results. Many folks choose to skimp on proper soil amendments for various reasons but claim they need more and more food and expand their plotting acres. You are proving, to at least a point, there is more than one way to get more food to the deer and it may not require expanding plotting acres to do so. You are saying that can be achieved thru proper soil health and fertilization to increase the yield of the existing plot. That's what I am seeing...... All I will add is that there is more to soil health than fertilizer as well. Liming (pH level), micro-nutrients and organic matter levels can all play a very important part as well....it can get much more complicated than that, but I'm not that smart! More than one way to skin a cat!

 

[yoderjac]

Let me add something that is getting lost. If we are talking about clover plots, then you are more likely to get away without fertilizer. It grows in my yard and there has never been a drop of fertilizer in my yard. If we are talking about corn, I want to see someone grow corn without fertilizer and then tell me how they did it. P.S. When I say grow corn I mean produce nice full ears of corn, not just stalks.


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Ahhhh.... That is one of our big differences and it is regional. Corn is a huge N seeker and I doubt anyone will get reasonable yields in a corn monoculture with zero added N. Ray the soil guy shows how farmers are reducing their N input for corn by using no-till methods and cover crops, but I doubt one could ever bank enough N for corn a normal densities. Up north where you guys are, carbs are king for getting deer though the winter and it is perfectly understandable why you need reasonable yields of corn.

In my neck of the woods (7a) summer is a greater stress period than winter and in most years acorns provide enough carbs. Here, I plant for the summer stress period and beans are king, not for pods, but for summer forage. I plant RR corn with my beans in a 7 parts beans to one part corn by weight. This provides for a low density of corn in the beans which provides vertical cover which encourages daytime use. With Eagle forage beans, they can stay green and attractive well into our season, and cover crops provide the later season attraction. While my primary purpose for growing corn is for the cover, I get good ear production with this method. For me, that is just gravy. I'm sure the reason is that given the low density of corn, the previous year's soybeans and the cover crop bank enough N.

I do fertilize for beans/corn, but I completely ignore the N requirement. The only N that is added is the small percentage in MAP which I use to achieve P levels. My focus when fertilizing is actually on K, not P or N. I find that with my soils, legumes respond more to K than P. In all cases I use less than the soil tests call for.

Once again, we see how regional perspectives play into approaches.

Thanks,

jack

 

[WTNUT]

JBird,

You are getting what I am conveying. I should have been more clear. I am starting with the assumption that PH is within a proper range and liming is not needed. I start there because I don't skimp on lime. I do no till plant so that helps too. But, I have been reminded that with proper application of fertilizer to all of my crops in plots, clover, corn, brassicas, alfalfa, beans, wheat, rye, oats, and other varieties as well I get a lot more production (some times twice as much) with proper fertilization as opposed to cutting corners. Therefore, I can plant fewer acres and take care of those acres and get as much production from them as I can from more acreage that isn't cared for as it should be.


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