What all do I have growing in this field?

[Native Hunter]

If I decide to plot some of the "open" ground, would you leave or remove the cedars?

I would leave them as much as reasonably possible.

 

[Bill]

The only cedars I would remove in that picture would "maybe" be one here and there if two are crowded together. unless that field has been regularly mowed I would think it's loaded with cedar seedlings.
Some guys don't like cedars, I do if they are thin enough for the deer to get into. What are the trees holding dead leafs? Shingle oaks or white oaks? I like both of those also. When the shingle oaks produce nuts the deer on place hit them daily when they fall.

 

[Tree Spud]

It's the improved variety of Partridge Pea that is sold by Roundstone Native Seeds. They advertise it as growing up to 4 feet tall, but it routinely grows 5 - 6 feet tall in my prairie. The grasses that dominate that particular field are Kaw Big Bluestem and CIR Switch. The switch gets about 7 feet tall and the Big Blue gets about 9 feet tall. I have some other fields that are more dominated by Indian Grass. Our snows are not bad here, and they all stand the winter pretty well. The Big Blue will occasionally flop at a few spots, but mostly stands well too.

Another forb that does great in the tall grasses is smooth ticktrefoil. It's the purple in the second pic below. It's even a more desirable browse than partridge pea. Two other good ones are tickseed sunflower and tall goldenrod.

Native...how do you plant these seeds in SG? Can you broadcast or do you need to till?

 

[Native Hunter]

Native...how do you plant these seeds in SG? Can you broadcast or do you need to till?

My tall grasses and forbs were all planted at the same time. We did a double gly kill on the existing fescue pasture and drilled the forbs and grasses in together. If SG (switchgrass) was already existing, you would need to thin it a little in my opinion and get the forb seed to some dirt with enough space to germinate and grow. I think that could be done by disking just enough to cause some disruption in the SG. In fact, to bring back forbs when SG gets too thick, disking is something that is usually recommended by the experts. I can see where getting the right amount of disking to reach your exact goal could be a little tricky. You don't want to set the SG back too much - you just want enough space to get the forbs going.

 

[Native Hunter]

Bill brings up the key to cedars in his post above. If they get too crowded, the bottom limbs die from lack of sun, and you eventually lose the screening. It's also a thick mess with no food value that deer don't use. However, if they are spaced out to where the bottom limbs keep getting sun, you have what I consider to be the almost perfect screening conifer for most situations where I live.

PS - If it's just one row of cedars with no other shade, they can touch at the bottom and you are fine. It's the cedar "thickets" that end up being what you don't want.

 

[lazy_turtle]

Bill brings up the key to cedars in his post above. If they get too crowded, the bottom limbs die from lack of sun, and you eventually lose the screening. It's also a thick mess with no food value that deer don't use. However, if they are spaced out to where the bottom limbs keep getting sun, you have what I consider to be the almost perfect screening conifer for most situations where I live.

PS - If it's just one row of cedars with no other shade, they can touch at the bottom and you are fine. It's the cedar "thickets" that end up being what you don't want.

Would be curious how you would lay this property out?

Red areas are the open areas I made this post about. The pastures on the north side will be in a corn/soybean rotation.

Here is drone footage of the place: https://streamable.com/cl72qo

 

[Native Hunter]

Would be curious how you would lay this property out?

Red areas are the open areas I made this post about. The pastures on the north side will be in a corn/soybean rotation.

Here is drone footage of the place: https://streamable.com/cl72qo

1. Those areas in red may be your best cool season food plot options since you are going to farm the north. I would plot those areas to the acreage I needed and possibly do switch and forbs on the rest.
2. I would screen as much as possible around property lines anywhere a neighbor might be hunting. It would be nice to even screen on the north if you think it is reasonable.
3. Create trails just inside the perimeter that you can use to access stands based on wind. Learn how deer travel on the land and place stands as needed.
4. Treat the rest as sanctuary. Do maintenance in the spring and stay out the rest of the time.
5. Looks like you have a stream through the middle for water, so that should take care of that.

 

[lazy_turtle]

1. Those areas in red may be your best cool season food plot options since you are going to farm the north. I would plot those areas to the acreage I needed and possibly do switch and forbs on the rest.
2. I would screen as much as possible around property lines anywhere a neighbor might be hunting. It would be nice to even screen on the north if you think it is reasonable.
3. Create trails just inside the perimeter that you can use to access stands based on wind. Learn how deer travel on the land and place stands as needed.
4. Treat the rest as sanctuary. Do maintenance in the spring and stay out the rest of the time.
5. Looks like you have a stream through the middle for water, so that should take care of that.

Thank you so much! A couple follow up questions:

Would you plot around those cedars or take them out?

What are some good options for screening the roads? I was gonna start with annuals like Egyptian wheat. Was thinking about Giant Miscanthus, but worried that herbicide from the crops might drift on it one year and ruin it.

 

[Bill]

If this is new property hunt it a few years before doing much more then screening. That said, I'm with Native but his #2 would be my #1.
Miscanthus will take a little drift, I plant beans 10 feet from mine. never had a problem but I try not to spray with winds blowing right on them. I've got some on ground I lease and they have been hit the last two years. Herbicide for beans and corn. Stunted but not dead. Gotta let my farmer know to plant 10 feet off them nest spring.

There is small round opening N of the larger opening in red. No boots on the ground but if you could connect the end of the larger red to that round spot then on to the crop field and plant it to clover it will be a natural pull. They like working a smaller plot before dark on the way to a lager crop field. The limiting factor is you would need a South wind to hunt it. But we get those in the fall.

I really like the cedars tough, good thermal cover in the making.

 

[Native Hunter]

Thank you so much! A couple follow up questions:

Would you plot around those cedars or take them out?

What are some good options for screening the roads? I was gonna start with annuals like Egyptian wheat. Was thinking about Giant Miscanthus, but worried that herbicide from the crops might drift on it one year and ruin it.

As stated earlier, I like the cedars. I would try to design the plots where the cedars can stay. You can always remove one immediately if you change your mind, but it takes a long time to put one back. When designing the plots think about accessing stands without disturbing deer and being able to see where you need to see.

Herbicide drift can be a real problem, and I don't have a 100% solution for that. However, I will say that I think your best shot at avoiding that problem would be conifers such as Norway Spruce or Eastern Red Cedar. I have cedars around both of my farms where gly is sprayed for crops every year and I have yet to see one damaged. However, they did get one of my pear trees.

 

[lazy_turtle]

@Bill, @Native Hunter

If those open areas end up having a strong stand of serecia, should I just go ahead burn them down and no till in soybeans this year, or wait and observe a year.


Again thanks for all the help, this is all great.

 

[Native Hunter]

@Bill, @Native Hunter

If those open areas end up having a strong stand of serecia, should I just go ahead burn them down and no till in soybeans this year, or wait and observe a year.


Again thanks for all the help, this is all great.

Farming an area with bad stuff in the seedbank is a good thing to do. It helps deplete the seedbank so that when you get ready to plant what you ultimately desire, it will be able to dominate the ground better. The problem with spraying serecia after you already have a prairie planted is that you are also going to kill a lot of your other desirable forbs.

 

[Mortenson]

Agtalk crowd said it's hard to kill in pasture situations but easy to kill in crop situations.

 

[Bill]

Agtalk crowd said it's hard to kill in pasture situations but easy to kill in crop situations.

This is my experience. I can't kill it in clover by just mowing it. Not even when burning down with gly or liberty before planting. It top kills but comes back. I have none in my bean fields.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

In a effort to reduce grasses in an old field/early successional test plot area I was going to experiment this spring. It’s a little area by my cabin so it really doesn’t matter the outcome. I was going to burn asap to get rid of some of the grasses. Once spring green up starts I was going to spray it quickly (as in drive pretty fast over it) with some cleth with the expectation that I will miss some of the grasses so I don’t completely wipe them out. I want some grass but right now it is matted down with grasses and very few forbs.

 

[omicron1792]

In an effort to reduce grasses in an old field/early successional test plot area I was going to experiment this spring. It’s a little area by my cabin so it really doesn’t matter the outcome. I was going to burn asap to get rid of some of the grasses. Once spring green up starts I was going to spray it quickly (as in drive pretty fast over it) with some cleth with the expectation that I will miss some of the grasses so I don’t completely wipe them out. I want some grass but right now it is matted down with grasses and very few forbs.

That’s a good plan Dawg. I would consider discing 2-3 passes over it. Will kill some grasses, but forbs come back from seed every year so will stimulate them. You could then do Clethodim in April or May after you see if discing did the trick.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

That’s a good plan Dawg. I would consider discing 2-3 passes over it. Will kill some grasses, but forbs come back from seed every year so will stimulate them. You could then do Clethodim in April or May after you see if discing did the trick.

Good idea. I meant to include that. I was going to adjust the disc to a not aggressive angle and make a pass. The only thing I worry about burning now is possible erosion until green up. Some of it is my pond dam.

 

[omicron1792]

Good idea. I meant to include that. I was going to adjust the disc to a not aggressive angle and make a pass. The only thing I worry about burning now is possible erosion until green up. Some of it is my pond dam.
View attachment 48279

Def burn in March then. I’ll tell you burning will stimulate grass growth, so could just disc and skip burn this year. Could also burn now and throw our winter rye or ryegrass to keep stabilized. Burning now stimulates forbs, burning in March stimulates grass.

The rye or ryegrass would give a little alleopathic effect that could thin the grass a little for you also.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Def burn in March then. I’ll tell you burning will stimulate grass growth, so could just disc and skip burn this year. Could also burn now and throw our winter rye or ryegrass to keep stabilized. Burning now stimulates forbs, burning in March stimulates grass.

The rye or ryegrass would give a little alleopathic effect that could thin the grass a little for you also.

Yeah that’s what I’m torn with. Burning now to achieve desired plant response but risk erosion or burn in March and stimulate too many grasses but erosion won’t be a problem…
Not sure I could even get the disc to penetrate right now without burning

 

[Tree Spud]

My tall grasses and forbs were all planted at the same time. We did a double gly kill on the existing fescue pasture and drilled the forbs and grasses in together. If SG (switchgrass) was already existing, you would need to thin it a little in my opinion and get the forb seed to some dirt with enough space to germinate and grow. I think that could be done by disking just enough to cause some disruption in the SG. In fact, to bring back forbs when SG gets too thick, disking is something that is usually recommended by the experts. I can see where getting the right amount of disking to reach your exact goal could be a little tricky. You don't want to set the SG back too much - you just want enough space to get the forbs going.

I have already mowed it and will use my drill to put the seed in. The SG is pretty well established after 6 years so knocking it back a bit shouldn't hurt.