Planning ahead...and a question about an existing plot

[Derek Reese 29]

so right now, I have a half acre plot above my house that has WR/WW/2 kinds of red clover (MRC and mammoth)/some aberlasting and alsike growing in it that was planted late last summer and I frost seeded some white clovers and a mix of a few other kinds of perennial clovers and alfalfa into it earlier this month...the frost-seeded seedlings are starting to come up and the WR/WW combo is starting to grow and become more noticeable....how long should I wait to mow the WR/WW?...last year I waited too long on a similar field and the WR/WW got way too tall (it was over 5' when we finally mowed it in June)....the field as it appears now..also..would a quick growing brassica grow in this established clover field without knocking it back?


Also for some more questions...adjoining this plot is another half acre of existing hayfield that I want to convert to a food plot, but slightly different than the one I already have.
My plan is to put aberlasting (2.5 lbs), ladino (6 lbs), mammoth red (6lbs) and a mix of clover and brassicas (4.25 lbs) along with a standalone amount of winfred brassicas (3 lbs) and some WR/WW (probably at least 50 lbs of each) again. I used kind of a similar amount of brassicas and clover last year (I know its a lot of extra seed, but I wasn't too sure how it would do). My question is about timing for this..I planted early August last year and we got good rain in August and September and it turned out well. I would like to try to plant earlier (maybe early to mid July) to get the brassicas taller, but I assume I should wait till later to plant the WR/WW and also maybe the clover till later (late August/early September)?
Sorry for the multitude of questions and thanks for the help!

 

[SD51555]

What do you want to do to with that plot after you mow off the WR and WW?

 

[Bill]

Question 1.
What happened to the field when you mowed the rye late?
I've let the rye terminate naturally and not mow it until late August. It worked perfectly, shaded my clover during the hot July and August weather.

Question 2.
I always plant clover with the brassicas. Even winfreds last year. I was to late for good moisture. I'm trying late June early July if I can get to it this year. Timing is always a crap shoot for me and brassicas

 

[Derek Reese 29]

What do you want to do to with that plot after you mow off the WR and WW?

Really just release the clover to grow and maybe if I see any turkeys around on my cams get a few late May Turkey hunts on the cut rye field when they chase bugs in it

 

[Derek Reese 29]

Question 1.
What happened to the field when you mowed the rye late?
I've let the rye terminate naturally and not mow it until late August. It worked perfectly, shaded my clover during the hot July and August weather.

Question 2.
I always plant clover with the brassicas. Even winfreds last year. I was to late for good moisture. I'm trying late June early July if I can get to it this year. Timing is always a crap shoot for me and brassicas

1. When we mowed the rye late the clover just took off, but if we had mowed it earlier in May I think we woulda had better Turkey hunting and let the clover get more of the earlier spring moisture. I guess I could let the rye stand and cut it later in the summer as I wouldn’t mind if it reseeded itself in and among the good clover land it would protect it from the hot sun as the field faces almost due south.
2. Was there any issue with the clover not doing well due to being planted in the middle of the summer or did it just hold off on germinating till cooler weather set in. I would definitely be willing to just seed the grains later (I broadcast all this by hand so the more things I can get spread at once the better.) I would probably mix up the brassicas and spread in one hopper then do the clover in a second spreading.

 

[SD51555]

Really just release the clover to grow and maybe if I see any turkeys around on my cams get a few late May Turkey hunts on the cut rye field when they chase bugs in it

There's your coin flip. Rye that goes the distance will wash out of the residue an equivalent of about 300 lbs/ac of 0-0-60 within a few weeks of mowing and probably close to 500 within a few months, but without all the burn of potash. I hang the health of the whole system on that mature straw crop.

 

[Nightvision]

Let me know how the frost seeded alfalfa does. I didn’t think you could frost seed it. I planted some down here in Georgia about a month ago then we had a hard freeze 2 nights in a row.

I’m replanting Friday.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

Let me know how the frost seeded alfalfa does. I didn’t think you could frost seed it. I planted some down here in Georgia about a month ago then we had a hard freeze 2 nights in a row.

I’m replanting Friday.

I may not know very well as it was part of a mix and i think it was only like 20% of a 4 pound mix so not very much spread over a half acre..also there was some in the hayfield and I think some of it was RR as it survived 2 rounds of gly and bounced right back..but if I see some I will let you know...

 

[yoderjac]

so right now, I have a half acre plot above my house that has WR/WW/2 kinds of red clover (MRC and mammoth)/some aberlasting and alsike growing in it that was planted late last summer and I frost seeded some white clovers and a mix of a few other kinds of perennial clovers and alfalfa into it earlier this month...the frost-seeded seedlings are starting to come up and the WR/WW combo is starting to grow and become more noticeable....how long should I wait to mow the WR/WW?...last year I waited too long on a similar field and the WR/WW got way too tall (it was over 5' when we finally mowed it in June)....the field as it appears now..also..would a quick growing brassica grow in this established clover field without knocking it back?
View attachment 42041

Also for some more questions...adjoining this plot is another half acre of existing hayfield that I want to convert to a food plot, but slightly different than the one I already have.
My plan is to put aberlasting (2.5 lbs), ladino (6 lbs), mammoth red (6lbs) and a mix of clover and brassicas (4.25 lbs) along with a standalone amount of winfred brassicas (3 lbs) and some WR/WW (probably at least 50 lbs of each) again. I used kind of a similar amount of brassicas and clover last year (I know its a lot of extra seed, but I wasn't too sure how it would do). My question is about timing for this..I planted early August last year and we got good rain in August and September and it turned out well. I would like to try to plant earlier (maybe early to mid July) to get the brassicas taller, but I assume I should wait till later to plant the WR/WW and also maybe the clover till later (late August/early September)?
Sorry for the multitude of questions and thanks for the help!

When I'm trying to establish perennial clover, for the first spring after plant, I like to mow the nurse crop each time it gets much over 1 foot. Depending on the clover and conditions, I'll mow it back to 6 or 8 inches. This keeps the cereal alive and growing fighting weeds, but releases the clover slowly.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

When I'm trying to establish perennial clover, for the first spring after plant, I like to mow the nurse crop each time it gets much over 1 foot. Depending on the clover and conditions, I'll mow it back to 6 or 8 inches. This keeps the cereal alive and growing fighting weeds, but releases the clover slowly.

I don't even know if I will have to mow WR/WW, as the deer are keeping it very short (for the moment). As the surrounding landscape greens up I may have to (this is what happened last year on a different plot) and I know WR doesn't take long to get tall.

 

[yoderjac]

I don't even know if I will have to mow WR/WW, as the deer are keeping it very short (for the moment). As the surrounding landscape greens up I may have to (this is what happened last year on a different plot) and I know WR doesn't take long to get tall.

As cereal matures and other foods become available, use will reduce significant. That is why I mow based on nurse crop height rather than a schedule.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

As cereal matures and other foods become available, use will reduce significant. That is why I mow based on nurse crop height rather than a schedule.

good call! I assume the rye will continue to grow until it kinda peters out later in the summer? thank you!

 

[Bill]

Was there any issue with the clover not doing well due to being planted in the middle of the summer or did it just hold off on germinating till cooler weather set in.

I planted later in the year. This summer I'm going to try early with the brassicas. I'll probably come back later and seed the clover.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

I planted later in the year. This summer I'm going to try early with the brassicas. I'll probably come back later and seed the clover.

I think I was just wimping out, not wanting to spread a bunch of clover and a couple bags of WR/WW by hand so I dont hurt the brassicas

 

[bigboreblr]

Dont be horribly concerned about seeding into brassicas. I've mowed them and they grow back. Sometimes running an atv tire ontop of a turnip doesnt kill it either.

Walking a plot and seeding it wont bother it.

Clover and summer, done it many times. Resseding bare spots, even a plot or two. Perennial white clovers, start them any time. They grow slow the 1st year. Young one will die if it's too dry. I hvent had much issues ith dry summers too much. I do have a way of watering my home plot. Hunting lease up in northern adirondacks is sandy soil, so drought is more of a cocern there. Never had a clover or grain crop die on me up there. Sometimes peas or brassicas fail though.

This might be my downfall. I usually fertilize when I seed and thats it for the year. I built 2 clover turnip and oat plots in the spring, the weeds and grass came up because I didnt kill the weeds first. Sprayed with clethodim, killed the grass well. Mostly nut sedge and goldenrod. Late in the summer, I spread triple 15 with some high N lawn fertilizer I had laying around and more clover seed. Plots looked nice n thick with clover. The oats died from th clethodim, which was ok with me. Turnips got huge. I waited until late summer, so the weeds wouldn't go nuts. Definitely helped out.

New plots planted in the summer will have weed issues, if your light on N fertilizer it does help. Most new plots are low in everything, and P and K doesn't move down the soil quickly, as well as lime too. I usually use 6-24-24 as the bulk of my fertilizer purchase. But, saw 1st hand what late summer trop dressing on N can do. That fall, that spring planted clover field looked well established. The 2nd plot area didn't have quality soil, moss, very small perennial short shrubs despite being bare for a decade. Only 2 pine trees were growing in that field decently.. 3/4 ton / acre of lime woke it up well.

 

[Derek Reese 29]

Dont be horribly concerned about seeding into brassicas. I've mowed them and they grow back. Sometimes running an atv tire ontop of a turnip doesnt kill it either.

Walking a plot and seeding it wont bother it.

Clover and summer, done it many times. Resseding bare spots, even a plot or two. Perennial white clovers, start them any time. They grow slow the 1st year. Young one will die if it's too dry. I hvent had much issues ith dry summers too much. I do have a way of watering my home plot. Hunting lease up in northern adirondacks is sandy soil, so drought is more of a cocern there. Never had a clover or grain crop die on me up there. Sometimes peas or brassicas fail though.

This might be my downfall. I usually fertilize when I seed and thats it for the year. I built 2 clover turnip and oat plots in the spring, the weeds and grass came up because I didnt kill the weeds first. Sprayed with clethodim, killed the grass well. Mostly nut sedge and goldenrod. Late in the summer, I spread triple 15 with some high N lawn fertilizer I had laying around and more clover seed. Plots looked nice n thick with clover. The oats died from th clethodim, which was ok with me. Turnips got huge. I waited until late summer, so the weeds wouldn't go nuts. Definitely helped out.

New plots planted in the summer will have weed issues, if your light on N fertilizer it does help. Most new plots are low in everything, and P and K doesn't move down the soil quickly, as well as lime too. I usually use 6-24-24 as the bulk of my fertilizer purchase. But, saw 1st hand what late summer trop dressing on N can do. That fall, that spring planted clover field looked well established. The 2nd plot area didn't have quality soil, moss, very small perennial short shrubs despite being bare for a decade. Only 2 pine trees were growing in that field decently.. 3/4 ton / acre of lime woke it up well.

I think we have similar ideas...brassicas/grains for the first fall/winter, then clover/residual grain planted in the fall for the next spring and summer...I would probably seed by hand as I feel like even my little 300cc wheeler pulling a spreader with 100 lbs of WR/WW seed would do too much damage to the brassicas. Thanks for the input on fertilizers...last year I added 1 50lb bag of urea when the brassicas were about 8" tall....they weren't that tall for long....a soil test is in the works for up there but it is pretty far down the list...I haven't used much fertilizer on any plot and have had decent success (I know that can make it thicker/more lush) but the money aspect of it gives me pause...

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Being in the same county as you, I can offer our experience as far as planting times. If we don't get our brassicas planted by the first week of August (preferably last half of July) - we don't get good size to them. We've planted brassicas later, around Labor Day, and they didn't get very big. After reading a lot on mixed plots - I don't think we'll be planting any more pure brassica plots. I'll throw in some WR and some red clover to keep something growing in the plots and also add N.

WW and WR we've planted around the last week of August / Labor Day and had good germination and growth before heavy frosts hit.

FWIW ( and I have no expertise here) I've read that allowing grains to get big & go to seed makes them "lignify" - get woody - and when they break down on / in the soil, they eat up nitrogen in the decay process. Any of you actual farmers know anything about this aspect???

 

[Derek Reese 29]

Being in the same county as you, I can offer our experience as far as planting times. If we don't get our brassicas planted by the first week of August (preferably last half of July) - we don't get good size to them. We've planted brassicas later, around Labor Day, and they didn't get very big. After reading a lot on mixed plots - I don't think we'll be planting any more pure brassica plots. I'll throw in some WR and some red clover to keep something growing in the plots and also add N.

WW and WR we've planted around the last week of August / Labor Day and had good germination and growth before heavy frosts hit.

FWIW ( and I have no expertise here) I've read that allowing grains to get big & go to seed makes them "lignify" - get woody - and when they break down on / in the soil, they eat up nitrogen in the decay process. Any of you actual farmers know anything about this aspect???

Thanks Bows! I don't really want those grains to be woody, but I do want taller brassicas (I found this year that the main thing the deer were concerned with once the snow hit was height of the plant, they didn't seem to care at all if it was a little thick in the stem). I was also thinking with the earlier brassica seeding I could get 2 rounds of urea spread to really get some height on them. I also felt like the brassicas kind of "protected" the clover and grains growing underneath, kind of a reverse cover crop kinda thing. Plus the "new" brassica plot will back up to an uncut hay field and my soon-to-be-planted tree screen which I hope will make the brassicas more attractive as they are directly adjacent to a bedding area.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

^^^ The thicker stems I was referring to are the rye stems. They "lignify" - get woody and tougher as the plants get bigger and make seed heads. Brassica stems aren't the same. We like our brassicas to get BIG also - more tonnage of forage for the deer. Woody, "lignified" plant material uses up nitrogen in the soil as it decays - robbing following crops of nitrogen supplied by clovers, alfalfa, and other legumes. (That info is from info I've read by crop & soil specialists. It's NOT my expertise!!! I read a lot of material.)

A good publication booklet (only 19 pages) from Penn State Extension is "Making the Most of Mixtures: Considerations for Winter Cover Crops in Temperate Climates". It goes over brassicas, clovers, rye & wheat, oats, canola, Austrian winter peas, and other crop varieties. It's geared more for farmers, but the info in it is good for food plotters too. Charts, pictures, and graphs compliment the written info. Which crops are good - and poor - weed suppressors, what various crops provide - or take from - the soil, etc. are covered topics. I got mine FREE from our county PSU extension office. Helpful info in it. It might prove handy for planting fall / winter food crops.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Derek -

I added more info to the above post.