Lime Question

My advice is never based on any one single experience. Instead, it is based on my collective experiences that are most relevent to the specific question(s) being asked.

But you're referencing production ag practices in a food plot discussion. You're answering apple questions with orange solutions. If you lose these guys by trying to have it both ways, they're all gonna end up trying some gypsum and destroy their soils.
 
Let's take a timeout and let me say thank you then. I love mushrooms, and those sold here come out of PA.

Your welcome, and yes those mushrooms coming from the guys around Kennet square are coming off (relatively speaking) my hay.

Fortunately, I dont have to manage that ground at all if chose not to (most don’t at all). However, I do to some extent as all of that acreage will be NWSG, pollinator habitat or plots in the near future. So, my actions are aimed at building the soil foundation for those uses when I finish the plantings.
 
Last edited:
But you're referencing production ag practices in a food plot discussion.

To the extent Ag practices and Food plot practices are comparable of course I am discusing them. If you choose to call them Ag practices, that doesnt change the fact that they are also food plot practices (Ex. lime does what it does regardless of whether you put it in soil and call that soil a food plot or a crop field).

As for there being people not understanding what they are reading, that is true of all written content regardless of the subject matter....all one needs to do is read some of the comments in this thread to see that! Lol.

If people don’t know, or understand, something they just need to ask instead of acting hostile to the messanger.....Just as I asked when I didnt understand why you were highlighting a video in which the host was discussing the sulphur component of his ag lime as if it was material.
 
I will point out...I meet the bulk of my sulphur needs simply through the application of needed S in the form of a liquid ferilizers. However, that is not an option for most food plotters so I havent focused on it here. Regardless, as I already stated I also have plots that I fertilize with the most basic equipment that every food plotter has access to, and so for the purposes of this topic I have limited my input to experiences gained from those practices.
 
White Birch, post #115 - No, I don't know Brian Cowden. Who is that ??
 
If people don’t know, or understand, something they just need to ask instead of acting hostile to the messanger.....Just as I asked when I didnt understand why you were highlighting a video in which the host was discussing the sulphur component of his ag lime as if it was material.
Boy howdy.

The reason I call out the difference is because baled up and hauled away biomass would require frequent applications of fertilizer to replace what was taken away. However, I have provided irrefutable, undeniable, and impermeable, proof that annual N, P, K, applications are not necessary in clover (where my original point began), making any addition of them foolish expenditures that create problems (sped up acidification, weed stimulation, poisoned soil biota) and simply add nutrients that were already sufficient for many years of top production.
 
Like the mulching lawn mowers vs the baggers.
 
However, I have provided irrefutable, undeniable, and impermeable, proof that annual N, P, K, applications are not necessary in clover (where my original point began), making any addition of them foolish expenditures that create problems (sped up acidification, weed stimulation, poisoned soil biota) and simply add nutrients that were already sufficient for many years of top production.

That is where you are undeniably wrong, (unless you consider it acceptable to have subpar forage production simply to (maybe) save a few dollars). Most food ploters with limited space should, and do, focus on optimizing yield.
 
Last edited:
Here are the twelve basic steps to establishing and maintaining a perennial clover plot (credit due to the “dork”). Note 6, 7, 8, 9, 11 and 12. The fact that you are skipping the fertilizer steps is not helping you fight grasses, it is the cause for you constantly being on the defensive trying to fight them. Add in the fact that you have stated that you view overseeding as a waste and it is clear why you have to fear fertilizing.

1) Proper planting rate
2) Proper planting depth
3) Proper seed to soil contact
4) Higher levels of soil organic matter
5 Inoculated Seed with non expired inoculants
6) Proper pH
7) Proper Fertilizer for your own soil
8) Use of micro nutrients both dry and foliar
9) Use of humics or fulvics
10) Timely clipping
11) Use of Sulfur
12) Fall Fertilizer Winterizing

(To be clear, if your goal is keeping your costs down (which it seems to be), that is your perspective. However, that doesnt make it a good practice for optimal forage production).
 
Last edited:
To the extent Ag practices and Food plot practices are comparable of course I am discusing them. If you choose to call them Ag practices, that doesnt change the fact that they are also food plot practices (Ex. lime does what it does regardless of whether you put it in soil and call that soil a food plot or a crop field).

As for there being people not understanding what they are reading, that is true of all written content regardless of the subject matter....all one needs to do is read some of the comments in this thread to see that! Lol.

If people don’t know, or understand, something they just need to ask instead of acting hostile to the messanger.....Just as I asked when I didnt understand why you were highlighting a video in which the host was discussing the sulphur component of his ag lime as if it was material.

And that is where I have changed over the years. I'm slowly learning that most Ag practices don't really apply to QDM. I've come to start with a new premise: The only benefit I see from a food plot is what ends up in a deer's stomach and only to the extent that the quality of that food exceeds what the deer would have otherwise eaten in naïve foods.

The deer herd will be limited but the fertility of the underlying dirt. We can not practically amend enough soil to change the underlying fertility of the soil over a large enough area to impact the herd. I don't think there is anything we can do to change that limit. Deer herd quality may be limited by other factors in the habitat as well. One of those factors is the volatility of weather in a given climate.

So, what am I shooting for? My first goal with food is to improve the availability of native foods by keeping sufficient land in early succession. Smart timber management improves the native foods while producing income. This is sustainable. My second food goal is to fill those gaps created by weather/climate volatility. Planted food plots give me the short term ability to decide when a quality food will be available. Cost efficient yield is the primary driver for ag practices and it completely unimportant to me. Deer are browsers by nature. All that beautiful high quality food left in a monoculture after the stress period contributes nothing to improving my deer quality. It matters not that deer are eating my food plot rather than native foods of equal quality. It is only when nature is stingy that the quality foods I produce evens out food factors that might otherwise be the limiting factor of my herd.

As I watch these discussions over Lime/gypsum, I think sometimes we miss the forest for the trees. I'm no soil scientist, but I have friends who are. When I look at this from a big picture perspective, I come to the conclusion that the important factor is nutrient cycling. All kinds of things including pH and microbiology of the soils effect nutrient cycling. There are a few things I've changed over the years as I've learned.

First is not to destroy what I have. "Ray the soil guy" has some great videos demonstrating how tillage impacts the soils. These are largely focused at big ag, but this is one area where the underlying principles of soil health apply as much or more to the food plotter. I have immensely reduced tillage.

The second area where I have changed is weed tolerance in clover and fall crops. Many of those weeds (but not all) have as much if not more wildlife value than the crop I plant. So, weed tolerance and smarter herbicide use is also something I've grown into.

While discussions like this are informative for those who can follow them, we need to keep things in perspective. Deer management is significantly different from agriculture.

Thanks,

Jack
 
That is where you are undeniably wrong, (unless you consider it acceptable to have subpar forage production simply to (maybe) save a few dollars). Most food ploters with limited with limited should and do focus on optimizing yield.
I said irrefutable. Therefore I will not respond.
 
Just so you dont think I cant understand your view...I have loads of “zero input” clover on the Ag side of my farm where I have no need to maximize them. However, there is a reason I distinguish between my ground that is “Ag” and the ground that is “food plots”. Because my goal for food plots is to maximize whitetail forage production in that location and so I treat that clover accordingly.
 

Attachments

  • 99EC67F0-2B70-4735-9FED-D1096406EC03.jpeg
    99EC67F0-2B70-4735-9FED-D1096406EC03.jpeg
    439.3 KB · Views: 4
I'm also going to buy a bag of $5 gypsum and with the drop spreader make a line in the clover. Will be a fun experiment.

When you do and see how good it works be careful posting up any results about it or White Birch will start an argument poo-pooing your results and start listing twenty other things you could have put on that were more expensive to do the same thing!
 
Just so you dont think I cant understand your view...I have loads of “zero input” clover on the Ag side of my farm where I have no need to maximize them. However, there is a reason I distinguish between my ground that is “Ag” and the ground that is “food plots”. Because my goal for food plots is to maximize whitetail forage production in that location and so I treat that clover accordingly.

That is my point. Maximizing Whitetail forage production is not a contributing factor to QDM in most cases. Money spend to food that does not enter the belly of a whitetail and is not available when equivalent quality native foods are not is money that could be spend on other aspects of QDM. You may not be doing QDM, but from a QDM perspective, a more appropriate sub-goal would be to produce sufficient whitetail forage production during a stress period.

I'm not suggesting you should do anything different. I'm just saying that this discussion is more applicable to maximizing yield as in agriculture than it is to deer management.
 
Deer management is significantly different from agriculture.

I agree 100%. The one point that I would add is that Deer management on the small property is significantly different than on an “Ag” sized property.

While you and I can afford a low input, natural approach and still make a meaningful difference, the same is not true on a small property where optimizing every planted acre is incrementally more advantagous.
 
You may not be doing QDM, but from a QDM perspective, a more appropriate sub-goal would be to produce sufficient whitetail forage production during a stress period.

I havent discussed my goals, so I am unclear what you think they are. However, I can assure you my plans are well in excess of what most people would call “QDM” goals and were created with the help of a host of qualified individuals including several that would be immediately identifiable by name in “QDM” circles.

For example, few “QDM” guys would put the time/energy/money into planning the vernal pools and associated habitat that I am. Not to mention, owl, duck, bat boxes, etc.
 
Last edited:
Here are the twelve basic steps to establishing and maintaining a perennial clover plot (credit due to the “dork”). Note 6, 7, 8, 9, 11 and 12. The fact that you are skipping the fertilizer steps is not helping you fight grasses, it is the cause for you constantly being on the defensive trying to fight them. Add in the fact that you have stated that you view overseeding as a waste and it is clear why you have to fear fertilizing.

1) Proper planting rate
2) Proper planting depth
3) Proper seed to soil contact
4) Higher levels of soil organic matter
5 Inoculated Seed with non expired inoculants
6) Proper pH
7) Proper Fertilizer for your own soil
8) Use of micro nutrients both dry and foliar
9) Use of humics or fulvics
10) Timely clipping
11) Use of Sulfur
12) Fall Fertilizer Winterizing

(To be clear, if your goal is keeping your costs down (which it seems to be), that is your perspective. However, that doesnt make it a good practice for optimal forage production).
First off, I don't not skimp on fertility, and I accept your apology.

Here is me applying borax in preparation for first planting to clover.
Borax.PNG

Here is me applying copper sulfate.
copper.PNG

Here is where the ground started before I began working on it in 2016.
summer 16.PNG

I've since been working on it as I'm able to get nutrients back there. I have access limitations due to excessive rainfall. I have added 800 lbs of potash/ac (the last shot went on last fall), 100 lbs MAP, 300 lbs gypsum (this all per/acre), 16lbs borax, 10 lbs copper sulfate, and I earned the manganese with my potash application. I was finally able to get the rest of my lime (1 ton/acre dolomitic, available at your local Tractor Supply store...) and micros done after this test was done. When my clover comes outta the ground in spring, it's going to be epic. All it will get from here is some borax and gypsum each year.

summer 18.PNG
 
First off, I don't not skimp on fertility (goes on to discuss all kinds of fertilers he used on his clover plot)..., and I accept your apology.

I have provided irrefutable, undeniable, and impermeable, proof that annual N, P, K, applications are not necessary in clover (where my original point began), making any addition of them foolish expenditures that create problems

If there is need to apolgize, it would be you apologizing for making continuously contradictory statements and talking in circles.

Responding to your questions has taken an enormous amount of my time, accordingly if you continue to backtract on your own statements and question me about them in a circular fashion I will not waste my time responding to your questions.
 
Here are the twelve basic steps to establishing and maintaining a perennial clover plot (credit due to the “dork”). Note 6, 7, 8, 9, 11 and 12. The fact that you are skipping the fertilizer steps is not helping you fight grasses, it is the cause for you constantly being on the defensive trying to fight them. Add in the fact that you have stated that you view overseeding as a waste and it is clear why you have to fear fertilizing.
Second, what of my pictures and postings leads you to believe I am "constantly on the defensive" trying to fight weeds? I accept your apology.

There are many guys on this forum that have discovered the way to defeat weed encroachment long before me. And that is undeniable fact.
c.JPGb.JPG
a.JPG
3.JPG
2.JPG
1.JPG
 
Top