Chestnuts Still no radical! WTH

Now that I see them starting, I have some suggestions for next time. Place the nuts in the corner of the 18 cell with the flat side down (or radical down) and the pointed end where the radicle and stem come out at the center of the cell. The puts both your root system and stem in the center.

Also, be careful with the watering. The pic could be deceiving but that mix looks like it is holding a lot of moisture.

Thanks,

Jack
 
A few months ago I bit the bullet and bought a bag (I think a 3 lbs bag) of "eating" Dunstan chestnuts... followed the tips from here, bagged them up in plastic bags with moist peat moss and tossed them into the fridge, checked them once for mold... tossed 1 or 2 out and never counted them before re-bagging.... I got nervous when I checked them 2 weeks ago and only one was sprouting,... A few days ago I decided it was time to move them out of the fridge, didn't hold out much hope... To my surprise pretty much all of them have taken off and there was a whole lot more nuts than I remember. Of the remaining 94 nuts, 86 sprouted - 7 had not yet and I tossed 1 more (tossed 3 in total from the original purchase)... Now I got a good sort of a problem... over 6 plus trays with 15 each planted in solo cups (i punched out the bottoms of the cups for drainage and they dont seem to let to much light in through the plastic). There are some nursery pots on order - just not that many and my significant other is,... well she's not really pleased with the kitchen set up right now and I do need to get them set up for growing out... grow lights in the basement I guess?, we are a bit to chilly up here for the garage. Just wanted to say thanks again for the advice to those that had posted tips and to those that said to give them time... I had pretty much written off the whole experiment.
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A few months ago I bit the bullet and bought a bag (I think a 3 lbs bag) of "eating" Dunstan chestnuts... followed the tips from here, bagged them up in plastic bags with moist peat moss and tossed them into the fridge, checked them once for mold... tossed 1 or 2 out and never counted them before re-bagging.... I got nervous when I checked them 2 weeks ago and only one was sprouting,... A few days ago I decided it was time to move them out of the fridge, didn't hold out much hope... To my surprise pretty much all of them have taken off and there was a whole lot more nuts than I remember. Of the remaining 94 nuts, 86 sprouted - 7 had not yet and I tossed 1 more (tossed 3 in total from the original purchase)... Now I got a good sort of a problem... over 6 plus trays with 15 each planted in solo cups (i punched out the bottoms of the cups for drainage and they dont seem to let to much light in through the plastic). There are some nursery pots on order - just not that many and my significant other is,... well she's not really pleased with the kitchen set up right now and I do need to get them set up for growing out... grow lights in the basement I guess?, we are a bit to chilly up here for the garage. Just wanted to say thanks again for the advice to those that had posted tips and to those that said to give them time... I had pretty much written off the whole experiment.
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If you ordered regular nursery pots you are going to have an issue. The tap root on chestnuts grows quickly. You will get circling or j-hooking roots once the tap root hits the bottom of the pot. That is why if we are going to start seedlings in containers we use some sort of root pruning container. The other option is to direct seed. I'd suggest either getting a series of root pruning containers or direct seed those nuts before the tap root hits the bottom of the container. You may also want to keep them refrigerated to slow them down until you can direct seed.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Do you think they will hit bottom in 2 and 3 gal containers by May?,... I could chill them for a bit out in the garage its not heated and doesnt get much light into it. They just had too much growth going on to keep in bags in the fridge, it was time to put them into something. I've got about 60 containers coming and need to still order another 100 3 gal for some apple tree grafts Im doing. I was just going to add an order of another 30 2 gal pots. Most of those container trees (Dunstans) people buy from the stores must be J rooted by the time they get sold I was hoping that the transplanting from the solos to pots would slow them down a bit.

6 flats are not going back into my fridge I can tell you that, for one they will not fit and two the wife would kill me, and 3 she informed me I will not be buying a "beer" fridge until after I build her a new house so... its going to be the garage or nothing.
 
Do you think they will hit bottom in 2 and 3 gal containers by May?,... I could chill them for a bit out in the garage its not heated and doesnt get much light into it. They just had too much growth going on to keep in bags in the fridge, it was time to put them into something. I've got about 60 containers coming and need to still order another 100 3 gal for some apple tree grafts Im doing. I was just going to add an order of another 30 2 gal pots. Most of those container trees (Dunstans) people buy from the stores must be J rooted by the time they get sold I was hoping that the transplanting from the solos to pots would slow them down a bit.

6 flats are not going back into my fridge I can tell you that, for one they will not fit and two the wife would kill me, and 3 she informed me I will not be buying a "beer" fridge until after I build her a new house so... its going to be the garage or nothing.

Many trees, especially those with a large nut like chestnuts, put a lot of energy into that tap root and it does grow quickly. I don't know whether it will hit the bottom of the container by May or not. Just something to keep an eye on. When you buy containerized trees, Dunstan or otherwise, you deal with circling or j-hooking roots at planting time. You have to remove enough of the mix to prune them by hand. That can be a lot of root mass lost to pruning just before planting. It will slow the growth of a containerized tree and it will act more like a bare root tree which, as the saying goes, "the first year they sleep, the second they creep, and the third they leap". This is better than the alternative. The tree may grow great for a few years and look great above ground, but eventually those circling/j-hooking roots constrict themselves.

The approach that works for me is to start trees early indoors under lights with a root pruning container system. I keep them at home for one season and they are 6' tall or so when I field plant them in the fall. Nothing is free. I lose that deep tap root making the tree more susceptible to drought before it is well established. Fortunately in my area, the water table is not real deep and we get pretty reliable rain in the spring and fall/winter. I do get a lot faster growth this way and when invest in planting and protecting the tree, I confident it will thrive.

Another approach that works well for folks is direct seeding. This can be done in the fall letting mother nature do the cold stratification or you can cold stratify the nuts in the fridge and plant them in the spring before top growth begins. The upside is a natural tap root but growth is slower. Also, you need to protect the nuts when planted in the field and some simply won't germinate or grow well so you don't have an easy opportunity to cull to the best before planting.

You seem to be taking an in between approach. Presuming your tap root doesn't hit the bottom of the container and cause issues, you will have trees very similar to direct seeded. I'm not sure that small amount of time you are getting top growth under lights by May will be much advantage. It seems this in between method adds cost and time with little advantage over direct seeding.

Given that you plan to plant in May, I would direct seed them. My thought is to fill your existing cups with mix and put the nuts near the top and put them in the unheated garage with no light. You may want to put a small heater with an anti-freeze setting next to them cause you don't want them to freeze. You could transplant into your 3 gal containers when they arrive but I'd keep them in the garage. I'd plant and protect them in the field just like folks who direct seed.

Thanks,

Jack
 
"You seem to be taking an in between approach."

Honestly I would love to say I had a plan... truth is the whole chestnuts in the fridge deal was more of an experiment than the well planned out approach I should have taken... never thought I would have close to a hundred nuts germinating and my timing was off on this from the beginning... so I'm kind of dealing with what I got.

Over the years I've planted thousands of trees - most behind a hardwood row planter. Ive trimmed up roots before so we wouldn't J root them in the furrow (wanna real treat, plant basswood once - out of control root systems - like getting a twig with cousin it attached). That added work was expected - I just dont have a clue how fast they root down. I plan on getting them into the ground as soon as the first hard frosts are done, raking out the roots/pruning them if need be. I will stake and maybe even tube some - prefer window screen. If I get 50 to go I would be happy this time around. I might keep a dozen or better in the bigger pots until fall just to see what happens. I have never cold stratified nuts before and thought what the heck... the price of just 1 from a nursery is more than what I got into the nuts and soil - the pots I will reuse so I'm not out much for trying... I just figured i would have more control this way than direct seeding... we have hungry squirrels up in these parts and I wasn't going to try and strip seeds or something to that effect - read something about that.

What I need is a four season greenhouse and a beer fridge...

Its just fun messing around, and there is a ton of good advise here from others, again Thanks,

Rich
 
"You seem to be taking an in between approach."

Honestly I would love to say I had a plan... truth is the whole chestnuts in the fridge deal was more of an experiment than the well planned out approach I should have taken... never thought I would have close to a hundred nuts germinating and my timing was off on this from the beginning... so I'm kind of dealing with what I got.

Over the years I've planted thousands of trees - most behind a hardwood row planter. Ive trimmed up roots before so we wouldn't J root them in the furrow (wanna real treat, plant basswood once - out of control root systems - like getting a twig with cousin it attached). That added work was expected - I just dont have a clue how fast they root down. I plan on getting them into the ground as soon as the first hard frosts are done, raking out the roots/pruning them if need be. I will stake and maybe even tube some - prefer window screen. If I get 50 to go I would be happy this time around. I might keep a dozen or better in the bigger pots until fall just to see what happens. I have never cold stratified nuts before and thought what the heck... the price of just 1 from a nursery is more than what I got into the nuts and soil - the pots I will reuse so I'm not out much for trying... I just figured i would have more control this way than direct seeding... we have hungry squirrels up in these parts and I wasn't going to try and strip seeds or something to that effect - read something about that.

What I need is a four season greenhouse and a beer fridge...

Its just fun messing around, and there is a ton of good advise here from others, again Thanks,

Rich

Rich,

Yep, it is fun to mess around with this stuff. Things don't always work they way they are supposed to. I've discovered a bunch of interesting and useful things just messing around.

Best of luck,

Jack
 
Rich,

Your journey similar to mine and(Im sure) countless others in our fraternity

Enjoy our addiction

bill
 
IMG_0268.JPG Got mine in the Rootmaker containers this weekend. I plan to transplant in the woods in May using tree tubes. They will be where I can water them if needed.
 
hunterrep,

You need to get airflow under that one tray. The ones with the regular 18s set in the express trays will get enough. I actually use the wire shelving you can pick up at Lowes for both regular and express trays to maximize air flow below the container. I rip a 2x4 in half and lay it on the surface. I cut it to the length of the shelving I'm using. The wire shelving has a lip that is close enough to the size of the 2x2. I use cable ties to tie the two sides of the shelving together on the large flat side. I then place the side where they are tied on the 2x2 with the lips pointed down. You can put the regular 18s directly on these.

This is just one way to do it, but the important thing is to have plenty of air flow below the 18s. I find using a mesh flat under an 18 helps support it a bit. I presume you got those express trays so you can eventually cut the regular 18s and rearrange the trees by height for better light adjustment.

Please report back with success or failure planting directly from 18s next year. I had very little success planting directly from 18s compared to keeping trees longer and planting them from larger RB2s. I did not provide supplemental water with my trees and it sounds like you are. I hope you have better success planting from 18s than I did.

Great works so far!

Thanks,

Jack
 
I hear you about air flow. Actually the extra tray is not a rootmaker. I simply had 13 extra nuts that I used this Home Depot tray for for in the event that some of the nuts in the rootmaker don't sprout. I will transplant the non producers from the short tray into the rootmaker before the tap root hits bottom. If I end up with 36 good trees that is a big enough chore for me.
You have me worried now about planting from the 18's. I never considered using the RB2s. I cant imagine if I keep them watered what difference it would make though as long as I keep the rodents away which I intend to do. Am I missing something?
Thanks
Jeff
 
Jeff,

I have planted from rootmaker 18s and had good luck. Two things I did that improved my growth was I used moisture mizer crystals in the hole when I put them in their final destination and I put down landscape fabric to eliminate competition and conserve moisture. If you can water them to avoid stress yours will do well if you have reasonably good soil.

They like full sun and the Chinese Chestnut can't be planted inside the forest because other trees will shade it out. I plant mine 7 steps apart.

Wayne
 
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Thanks for the tips Wayne. I have several open areas in my woods due to ash die off as well as an open south facing area slated to plant these. I was planning on using fabric but like the water crystal idea.
 
I hear you about air flow. Actually the extra tray is not a rootmaker. I simply had 13 extra nuts that I used this Home Depot tray for for in the event that some of the nuts in the rootmaker don't sprout. I will transplant the non producers from the short tray into the rootmaker before the tap root hits bottom. If I end up with 36 good trees that is a big enough chore for me.
You have me worried now about planting from the 18's. I never considered using the RB2s. I cant imagine if I keep them watered what difference it would make though as long as I keep the rodents away which I intend to do. Am I missing something?
Thanks
Jeff

I'm not saying planting trees from 18s will kill them, especially if you provide supplemental water. I have too many trees in the field for that. I am saying that while I did have significant losses planting directly from 18s, but more importantly is that trees don't thrive for me. I have trees that were planted from 18s four years ago that are only 3 or 4 feet tall now. By comparison, I've had trees I kept in RB2s for 1 season be over 6' tall and 3/4" in caliper when planted in the fall. I got 3 feet additional growth the following growing season. This thread has details with pictures: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.p...h-rootmakers-transfered-from-qdma-forum.5556/

Some of this could be my conditions. As I say, I don't provide supplemental water to any trees in the field after they are initially planted. Beyond that, I don't have great soil. So, things may be different if one has fertile soil and provides supplemental water. Wayne seems to have good results planting from 18s. With my conditions, there is no question that the added expense and effort of keeping them for 1 growing season and upsizing RB2s is more than worth it for me in terms of results. That may not be the case for others.

Keep in mind that the first time you grow chestnut trees from seed it is a learning experience. Over time you will learn what works best for you.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Jack,

The last sentence of your post is important

I am starting to believe taproot preservation is more important than root pruning in arid zones (8b)

bill
 
Jack,

The last sentence of your post is important

I am starting to believe taproot preservation is more important than root pruning in arid zones (8b)

bill

Bill, I think you may be right, but it may be a bit more complicated than simply arid. Most trees are sold for landscape or orchard use around a house where supplemental water is available. I think root pruned trees do fine even in arid regions in that setting. We have a unique use for trees when planting them for wildlife. Anytime we are planting trees in volume, they need to achieve our production goals with minimal if any long-term care. I natural tree with a tap root can reach deep. Most nutrients are in the topsoil but depending on location, water can be much deeper. Rainfall is one factor. If reliable rain is available I think root pruned trees work out even better than a tap root tree. However, another factor is water table. If the water table is not reachable by the tap root it doesn't add much, but if it is, it can be a life saver in terms of drought. The other factor is that a root pruned tree has a much more efficient root system. So, it can make better use of water and nutrients, but they can only use what they can reach. Another factor is soils. Someone with sandy soil may get good rain, but the soil dries out quickly and a short drought could be problematic. Someone with heavy clay soil that retains water well is in much better shape.

I'd say there is a continuum and everyone needs to figure out where they sit on it. For example planting directly from 18s did not work out well in my area because the root system was so small and shallow coming from an 18. Planting larger trees kept for one season scaling up sizes to 3 gal RB2s worked fantastic however, there is certainly more effort in planting from 3 gals. The larger the root system of a root pruned tree when planted, the better it will work out in regions where water may be an issue. So, some folks my need to go to 7 gal containers and keep trees for two seasons.

I don't think there is one size fits all. That is one great thing about this forum where we can share successes and failures and then adapt them for our areas. This is often why I have such long posts trying to identify underlying concepts rather than simply spouting short "do this" answers. But your point is well taken. Before making a big investment in a process for growing trees, I bought a few containers from John at Big Rock and experimented. It was only after I convinced myself that rootmakers were a good fit for my situation that I went large scale.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Jack,

You were so right about the tap root growth on these chestnuts... wow... I was moving my chestnuts to grow light racks, still in their solo cups and in the process cracked a cup.... the tap root is already at the bottom and turning... top growth is only surface to an inch.

So transplanting is in the immediate future... their going to have to be happy in 1.5 gallon pots (there just going to get pruned like all the other bulk hardwood plantings I've done) , I dont have enough room in the basement for 90 3 gal ones and I have to get the skid steer out to bust into the dirt pile as it is - we are still pretty chilly up here and store purchased, bagged up dirt is likely to still be frozen as well.

Bright side is - next year will go soooooo smooth................................................
 
Jack,

You were so right about the tap root growth on these chestnuts... wow... I was moving my chestnuts to grow light racks, still in their solo cups and in the process cracked a cup.... the tap root is already at the bottom and turning... top growth is only surface to an inch.

So transplanting is in the immediate future... their going to have to be happy in 1.5 gallon pots (there just going to get pruned like all the other bulk hardwood plantings I've done) , I dont have enough room in the basement for 90 3 gal ones and I have to get the skid steer out to bust into the dirt pile as it is - we are still pretty chilly up here and store purchased, bagged up dirt is likely to still be frozen as well.

Bright side is - next year will go soooooo smooth................................................

With the root pruning containers, you don't need such large containers. The tiny 18s are good for 12 to 16 weeks. Chestnuts are often 15" by the time I transplant into 1 gal RB2 containers. I think keeping a tap root is pretty hard to do when starting trees indoors. You don't gain much growth starting them indoors without root pruning containers and lights to outweigh the tap root issues. If you want the tap root, it is probably better to direct seed.

Having said that, growing seedlings indoors is great cure to cabin fever regardless of the method. I learned a lot in my first few years of it. Issues are just part of the learning process. I hope these work out for you!

Thanks,

Jack
 
With the root pruning containers, you don't need such large containers. The tiny 18s are good for 12 to 16 weeks. Chestnuts are often 15" by the time I transplant into 1 gal RB2 containers. I think keeping a tap root is pretty hard to do when starting trees indoors. You don't gain much growth starting them indoors without root pruning containers and lights to outweigh the tap root issues. If you want the tap root, it is probably better to direct seed.

Having said that, growing seedlings indoors is great cure to cabin fever regardless of the method. I learned a lot in my first few years of it. Issues are just part of the learning process. I hope these work out for you!

Thanks,

Jack


I might just get crazy and bore a mess of holes in my smaller nursery pots and give that a whirl, I have them bought and paid for and a drill, so what the heck, right?....... I was looking at rootmaker type pots but they are pricey and I dont know if I can personally justify them (they look good - not slighting them I just have to spend money in a couple other directions this spring). I looked at Dimple Drain Sheets to see if cutting them down to size to make some air pruning containers was cost effective, but that also seems like a lot of work... I have some water proofing membrane left over from a basement project - the more I think about it I may just cut and pop together a few containers out of that, it has dimples and I will just make a nail board jig and push out holes in that....

and I agree, now that I've seen how fast they push out roots, keeping a tap root would be tough unless you grew them in 1 1/2 foot (split)pvc pipes or maybe black 3 inch drain tile cut into lengths - and with that ....

Actually that might not be such a bad idea - I wonder if perforated black drain tile would air root --- light wont go through it, its cheap, the corrugated rings would make a good spot to drill into also besides the slits... you could rack them up stacked side by side in a pretty tight area and could cut to any length you would want, You wouldn't necessarily need to make a bottom for them... Ive split them before (used to use them for tree protection before I went to window screen) The trick would be to spit them in half for the smaller dia containers... 4" or larger wouldnt be to hard to open enough to get the plant/roots out without a mess. 6" x 100' would cost 70 - 90 bucks ... so roughly .80 for a 6"x1' container ... you should be able to get three years plus of reuse out of them before they start to bust apart maybe a lot longer. Might be a good way to keep a decently long tap root - you would be planting with a post hole digger verses tree spades.

Who knows in the end I will likely come home one day and find them smoked under my grow lights... the temp is running 71 deg, I have a timer to install tomorrow.. but Im all new to this grow light thing... Im waiting for the Narc-cops to come knocking because my power consumption has gone up and there is a strange glow coming out of the basement windows at night.

which now that i think of it ... how much light (on time) are you giving your plants? I was going to do 6 hours, off 3 then 6 more, balance of a day off then cycle again each day?
 
I wouldn't bother drilling holes in nursery containers. Others have tried that with poor results. It is a bit more complicated than holes. Back when the first experimentation with root pruning being done, they used milk cartons and completely cut out the bottoms. That would prune the tap root and would work for the first stage, but would not do much for pruning lateral roots. I find root pruning to be a system, not a one shot deal. You could probably prune the tap root like that at 4" and buy cheap bags. Folks have success with canvas like bags with a fairly loose weave. Roots grow through the bag and are air pruned. You need to keep these bags off the ground or move them from time to time to keep roots from growing through the bottom of the bag into the soil. They are less expensive than the RB2 containers I use. I was also able to make inexpensive DIY containers out of shelf liner that worked for the first stage like 18s. The only issue with them is that you have to watch water even closer than 18s. http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.p...ntainers-diy-transfered-from-qdma-forum.5542/

Root pruning containers may not be for you. I've had poor results planting directly from 18s and good results planting from 1 gals but the best results from doing two transplants from 18s to 1 gals and then to 3 gals in the first growing season before planting them in the field.

One question to ask yourself is this: Is any additional benefit you get from starting them indoors worth the cost and effort. The PVC idea or anything that preserves the tap root makes planting more difficult. The longer the tap root at planting time the more difficulty compared to direct seeding. If you prune the tap root, you've likely solved circling and j-hooking but unless it is done in stages, you don't get the benefits. Most of the branching occurs in the first 4" above the tap root. That is why we use a system of containers. The tap root is pruned with 18s and with that container is full of secondary and tertiary roots, we transplant to a larger container. The optimal size would be 4" deeper and 8" larger in diameter than the first container. This would maximize branching in the next 4". We don't quite do this for practical reasons, but going a bit smaller doesn't hurt anything. So, I go from 18s to 1 gal to 3 gal. By the time I have a 3 gal that is full of a dense root ball, the tree can handle all the conditions my climate throws at it.

As long as you think of it as an experiment, fun, and a learning experience, you can try about anything. Lots of folk have tried different methods over the years and I've followed those threads. My sense is that either you direct seed in the field or commit to a root pruning container system. Splitting the difference usually ends up with worse results than committing to one or the other.

Thanks,

Jack
 
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