My response to the brilliant folks at qdma site

[kabic]

I will start with a :) as you clearly are speaking emotionally.

You should know that as a Wisconsin resident that farmers are incredibly compensated for deer crop damage. have been for many years before CWD.

Please identify where farmers were forced to kill deer and not compensated? They are paid real $$ for killing deer through many programs.

If the govt came in and destroyed/took property in my warehouse, I would most likely be in handcuffs and my family was taken away to concentration camps. That's what Hilter, Stalin, and all the other despots did over the centuries ...

What property are you trying to protect ... the corn or the cow?

Farmers want to get paid to kill deer who eat their crops, then complain when predators are present that kill the animals that eat their corn ... they can't have it both ways.

If you own a business, please advise, as you might understand what the term "Property" or owned insurable asset means ...

I'm not trying to be emotional, sorry if I came across that way. The only point I was trying to make is farmers should be compensated when their livestock is taken\killed by the government. I'm not even talking strictly about CWD, that just happens to be one cause of the situation. Some Michigan Hog farmers faced a similar situation because of the breed of hog they choose to raise for meat.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt...-over-michigans-new-swine-rules-goes-hog-wild

But with Michigan's new order, Baker's herd was suddenly classified as an illegal invasive species — putting him at risk of up to two years in jail and $20,000 in fines. If Baker complies, he will receive no compensation for the loss of his investment.

To answer your question I am not a business owner, but understand the legal definition of property is real estate. I was using the layman's definition(i.e my TV is my property). Are you suggesting that livestock are assets that should be insured, and when the government comes in a says they need to be put down for whatever the reason the government(tax payers) should not provide compensation and the owner should file an insurance claim?

I really don't have a horse in this race, just sharing my opinion.

 

[buckvelvet]

I hope the russians break in here and leak all the info.....

 

[yoderjac]

Riiight...You have been asked 3 times to show 1 case of any harm CWD has caused to any herd in any state or any person in this world? You cant do it. That is fact. 100% real life fact. Everything you have been told( And looks like your one of the few that believe) that CWD was going to do has never happened. 50 plus years..Never happened. Our state in affected by this disease. Have been for over 10 years. Nothing has changed here. The state only test a few each year and hunters do not send out deer to be tested. The only reason people get deer tested is because of the scare they put into people. You think all the hunters in Arkansas that have now just found out that they have had a 50% positive herd for years and never had a deer tested will now get all their deer tested? I doubt it. Some will,which is fine but now will the state give you another tag to go shoot another one to see if that one is positive? And Another? And Another? I would guess not.
If you ever come up with some real life deer kill off or human sickness because of CWD Prion's please feel free to enlighten everyone.

Glad to see there is consensus on the concern of how exposure to CWD poses a risk to humans. You acknowledge the risk by saying you would not feed CWD infected meat to your family. So, the only area of question is what is the level of risk, and what actions are prudent. You seem to feel the only prudent action is to test to ensure animals are not CWD positive before feeding them to your family. Is eating food the only way for CWD to risk people? Perhaps your are right and maybe you are wrong. Others seem to think that it may be prudent to do more to reduce exposure of humans to CWD than simply ensuring the meat they consume is not a source. It is a judgment call where the safety of people is the concern. Every day we make judgments both individually and sociality. Some folks smoke. Some wear seatbelts. Some states enforce seatbelt laws. Others let folks ride motorcycles without helmets.

Just to provide folks with a better overview of this family of disease and how it affects both animals and people, folks should check out the CDC page on prion related disease: http://www.cdc.gov/prions/

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Four Seasons]

Glad to see there is consensus on the concern of how exposure to CWD poses a risk to humans. You acknowledge the risk by saying you would not feed CWD infected meat to your family. So, the only area of question is what is the level of risk, and what actions are prudent. You seem to feel the only prudent action is to test to ensure animals are not CWD positive before feeding them to your family. Is eating food the only way for CWD to risk people? Perhaps your are right and maybe you are wrong. Others seem to think that it may be prudent to do more to reduce exposure of humans to CWD than simply ensuring the meat they consume is not a source. It is a judgment call where the safety of people is the concern. Every day we make judgments both individually and sociality. Some folks smoke. Some wear seatbelts. Some states enforce seatbelt laws. Others let folks ride motorcycles without helmets.

Just to provide folks with a better overview of this family of disease and how it affects both animals and people, folks should check out the CDC page on prion related disease: http://www.cdc.gov/prions/

Thanks,

Jack

If there is a choice..Which there is..people would not eat infected meat. I choose not to test and have fed my family for years which about every one of us has. As it stands at 50 plus years there has been no proven harm done. You say peole have choices and i agree...What i dont agree with is someone telling me i must..Telling me they dont want folks making a living the way they wish as long as safe a legal and all the while them doing this with their double standards. We could all walk around in a bubble but after 50 plus years and billions of dollars in research spent the CWD prion is not even a dot on the radar of things that are going to kill us or our deer herds! Question is...How many years is it going to take for some of us to see this and what will it take to see the light.

 

[Ben.MN/WI]

What do the deer farmers here think should happen when CWD is detected in their captive herd?

 

[jsasker007]

If I raised deer for a living I would have insurance on my investment. If something happens you would be covered if the premiums are up to date and you have the proper coverage. Now days people expect everyone else is supposed to help them when they are down and out---I'm not that way! Don't hate the player, hate the game.

 

[Jeff23]

What do the deer farmers here think should happen when CWD is detected in their captive herd?

Quarantine the farm until they have a chance to try to determine the source (often not productive), and either provide an opportunity to move the animals to a hunting facility OR provide fair compensation if they force depopulation. I think those are pretty reasonable concessions.

 

[Four Seasons]

What do the deer farmers here think should happen when CWD is detected in their captive herd?

Absolutely Nothing! Every aspect of the game should be played on the same playing field. How can you tell me you want to shut my life down for 5 years or even kill all my animals because of a disease yet they can lower the fences of places like Wind Cave Park and let known CWD infected animals out into the wilds and they repopulate states Elk populations with Untested Elk from CWD positive states! What makes one think the same CWD should be treated in two different ways because of who is playing the game???

 

[Jeff23]

I thought of another stipulation I would add: any positive deer would be required to be used for research and testing before being killed. They are killing their most valuable test subjects.

 

[yellowdog00]

A recent yet to be published study on mule deer. Also, note the effects of cwd on group of penned elk described further down in article. I'm in the camp that cwd is a real threat to our valuable deer resource.

http://www.wyofile.com/study-chronic-wasting-disease-kills-19-deer-annually/

 

[yoderjac]

If there is a choice..Which there is..people would not eat infected meat. I choose not to test and have fed my family for years which about every one of us has. As it stands at 50 plus years there has been no proven harm done. You say peole have choices and i agree...What i dont agree with is someone telling me i must..Telling me they dont want folks making a living the way they wish as long as safe a legal and all the while them doing this with their double standards. We could all walk around in a bubble but after 50 plus years and billions of dollars in research spent the CWD prion is not even a dot on the radar of things that are going to kill us or our deer herds! Question is...How many years is it going to take for some of us to see this and what will it take to see the light.

Who is telling you that you must...?

 

[Four Seasons]

If I raised deer for a living I would have insurance on my investment. If something happens you would be covered if the premiums are up to date and you have the proper coverage. Now days people expect everyone else is supposed to help them when they are down and out---I'm not that way! Don't hate the player, hate the ga

A recent yet to be published study on mule deer. Also, note the effects of cwd on group of penned elk described further down in article. I'm in the camp that cwd is a real threat to our valuable deer resource.

http://www.wyofile.com/study-chronic-wasting-disease-kills-19-deer-annually

With those numbers ,seeing though CWD has been in the herd from back in 86' the herd would have all but been gone by now. So many holes in that story. No Dead deer found that confirmed dead from CWD. Testing Wild deer with a live test that is not even approved for use as a test.

Just keeps going back to 50 years of CWD around and no proof that it is doing any kind of carnage they said it would. I like the part about the rise in predators and wonder why there would be a drop in deer numbers. Kinda makes one think about the wolves and the Whitetails. Wonder which one will win in those states?

 

[yoderjac]

A recent yet to be published study on mule deer. Also, note the effects of cwd on group of penned elk described further down in article. I'm in the camp that cwd is a real threat to our valuable deer resource.

http://www.wyofile.com/study-chronic-wasting-disease-kills-19-deer-annually/

Interesting article. Thanks for posting the link. It demonstrates why CWD is of concern to deer managers and mentions CJD is in the same family. 19% is a pretty sizable hit for your area. Fortunately it is so far limited to a few counties in my state, at least so far...Knock on wood.

Thanks,

jack

 

[Jeff23]

If I raised deer for a living I would have insurance on my investment. If something happens you would be covered if the premiums are up to date and you have the proper coverage. Now days people expect everyone else is supposed to help them when they are down and out---I'm not that way! Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Captive cervids are basically uninsurable- the chance that the government could come destroy your entire investment out of the blue is a little too much risk.

 

[Knehrke]

It's amazing how similar these CWD arguments are on different forums. I hear that there's no evidence that cigarettes are bad for you either, according to the tobacco companies, and you can drink the stuff they inject for fracking...

Prior diseases are scary. I speak from an informed perspective, with 25+ years experience as a physiologist, professorship at a major research university, and permanent membership on a National Institutes of Health research panel that evaluates grants to study neuronal dysfunction and death. Neurodegenerative disease progresses with age, so the absence of overt death can't be interpreted as a lack of impact. Prion diseases are not well understood and have been known to jump species. Extreme caution is warranted from a public health perspective, regardless of management strategies.

These are the points that may cause an objective hunter to weigh the evidence more carefully. Individuals with a vested interest in other's opinions should have their own opinions taken with a grain of salt. For the record, I do not work directly on nor receive any funds to study CWD, but my opinions are informed by years of training. Make of that what you will.

 

[yoderjac]

It's amazing how similar these CWD arguments are on different forums. I hear that there's no evidence that cigarettes are bad for you either, according to the tobacco companies, and you can drink the stuff they inject for fracking...

Prior diseases are scary. I speak from an informed perspective, with 25+ years experience as a physiologist, professorship at a major research university, and permanent membership on a National Institutes of Health research panel that evaluates grants to study neuronal dysfunction and death. Neurodegenerative disease progresses with age, so the absence of overt death can't be interpreted as a lack of impact. Prion diseases are not well understood and have been known to jump species. Extreme caution is warranted from a public health perspective, regardless of management strategies.

These are the points that may cause an objective hunter to weigh the evidence more carefully. Individuals with a vested interest in other's opinions should have their own opinions taken with a grain of salt. For the record, I do not work directly on nor receive any funds to study CWD, but my opinions are informed by years of training. Make of that what you will.

They come from folks with a desired outcome and agenda trying to selectively select facts and string them together for support. As you say, when you start with no agenda and look at the data, prion diseases are not well understood but of great cause for concern. No one likes folks messing around with their passions, and the emotional response is quite understandable, but there are a lot of factors for authorities to weigh here.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Four Seasons]

Agreed..But way to many years have gone by for this crap to prove itself. Yes research. Yes let folks make their own choices on how to deal with what lies in front of them BUT if anything is going to be done to stop or prevent something then EVERYTHING has to be done. You dont say stop a deer from coming out of Wisconsin because it may carry the prion but allow say Corn and Alfalfa to leave that same state that may carry that same prion.
Way to many double standards show what the real agenda is! You allow a CWD positive herd of Elk to be killed on a farm yet you open the gates on a public owned, Known positive herd to allow them to run free in the wild to be allowed to be harvested by the public?
You tell me those two things add up to be really worried about a disease?? I think not. When you pick and chose something out of a whole pile of the same thing you are working on agenda.

 

[yoderjac]

Agreed..But way to many years have gone by for this crap to prove itself. Yes research. Yes let folks make their own choices on how to deal with what lies in front of them BUT if anything is going to be done to stop or prevent something then EVERYTHING has to be done. You dont say stop a deer from coming out of Wisconsin because it may carry the prion but allow say Corn and Alfalfa to leave that same state that may carry that same prion.
Way to many double standards show what the real agenda is! You allow a CWD positive herd of Elk to be killed on a farm yet you open the gates on a public owned, Known positive herd to allow them to run free in the wild to be allowed to be harvested by the public?
You tell me those two things add up to be really worried about a disease?? I think not. When you pick and chose something out of a whole pile of the same thing you are working on agenda.

Accept I don't have a position other than that I'm concerned about prion diseases. They have a very long incubation period. It takes a long time to get your hands around a disease with such a long incubation period. Most decisions that have something in common (like CWD in the example you inject), have many other factors being considered. Risk evaluation in a complex situation is non-trivial.

As a hunter in a CWD free area, I'd want to see heavy restrictions to prevent the risk of it coming to my area. As a hunter in a CWD hot zone, I'd be concerned about heavy herd reduction that could jeopardize the sport I love. As a hunter in a CWD emerging area (which is where I am), I have significant concerns about the impact it will have as progresses.

CWD is a legitimate concern. Folks can disagree about the best way to deal with the challenge and in fact, I'm sure different local authorities are dealing with it differently in different areas. It is pretty hard to look at all the data and say there is no problem at all.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Four Seasons]

Problem is the CWD is only 5 years max. Its mine and many that believe even this prion has had 50 plus years to rear and prove its ugly head and it has not done so? 50 more years will only prove more of the same. If its so bad why is not every facet of transmission treated in the same manner by our Govt? Why if there is even a slight question of human harm has the Federal Govt pulled the funding for testing and put the burden on the states?

Again if this was such a big deal after all the billions in research and everything we know about this disease they would not just handpick a couple of things to fight this disease and it surly would not be pointed at just farmers.

 

[yoderjac]

Problem is the CWD is only 5 years max. Its mine and many that believe even this prion has had 50 plus years to rear and prove its ugly head and it has not done so? 50 more years will only prove more of the same. If its so bad why is not every facet of transmission treated in the same manner by our Govt? Why if there is even a slight question of human harm has the Federal Govt pulled the funding for testing and put the burden on the states?

Again if this was such a big deal after all the billions in research and everything we know about this disease they would not just handpick a couple of things to fight this disease and it surly would not be pointed at just farmers.

Here is a good article: http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/10/6/03-1082_article It demonstrates the concern and the need for continued virulence but also points out there has so far been no case of CWD jumping the interspecies barrier. There are some studies that show it may be possible, but none that conclude that it is likely yet. I then to agree with you the risk is low but the consequences are very high.

I understand that the article is long for some, but you might want to focus on the section to how this disease affects cervids. Here is a short quote on that topic for folks that don't have time to read the entire article:

Clinical manifestations of CWD include weight loss over weeks or months, behavioral changes, excessive salivation, difficulty swallowing, polydipsia, and polyuria (1,6–8). In some animals, ataxia and head tremors may occur. Most animals with the disease die within several months of illness onset, sometimes from aspiration pneumonia. In rare cases, illness may last for ≥1 year. In captive cervids, most cases occur in animals 2–7 years of age; however, the disease has been reported in cervids as young as 17 months and as old as >15 years of age (1). This disease can be highly transmissible within captive deer and elk populations. A prevalence of >90% was reported among mule deer in facilities where the disease has been endemic for >2 years (2,6,7,12). The mode of transmission among deer and elk is not fully understood; however, evidence supports lateral transmission through direct animal-to-animal contact or as a result of indirect exposure to the causative agent in the environment, including contaminated feed and water sources (12).

Thanks,

Jack