TSI -what to cut?

mglenn005

5 year old buck +
I am in north Alabama and will be doing some TSI after hunting season. I will be hunting some trees and flush cutting others. I am decent at tree identification and know the majority of trees in my area. I don’t know timber markets very well. So what tree has value to deer or to sell in a stand. Most of this timber has been cut many years ago with a lot of double trunk or triple trunk trees growing. Some of these double trunk trees are 8” in diameter.

This is my perceived value (i.e. don’t cut unless it’s competing or unhealthy shape / crooked / disease)

1. White oaks and varieties (swamp white oak)- obviously keep. I will cut trees that interfere with the crown of a healthy tree. No stump treatments
2. Red oaks and varieties. See above comment.
3. Pines (long leaf, short leaf, white) greater than 12” diameter. Cut smaller if stem density is high
4. Walnuts - only keep if very straight and minimal branches
5. Cherry - never seen one of mine produce, candidate for hinge
6. Dogwood - candidate for hinge
7. Maple - hinge or flush cut
8. Ash varieties - any value? Hinge or flush
9. Cedar - flush cut
10. Holly tree - leave as they are green cover year round?
11. Hickory - hinge or flush
12. Yellow Popular - hinge or flush.
13. Sycamore - any value? Hinge or flush
14. Unknown trees but leaves 10” plus in length and 5+ inches wide. I don’t have a picture of it currently.
15. Sweetgum - I plan to kill, destroy, and spray. I hate these things

Thoughts or comments?


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My forestor leaves blue dots. Those are he ones I cut lol. He’s far smarter then I am. With that said he is managing mainly for oaks. Once I cut his marked trees in an area, I will use any tree I see fit for habitat improvements. He’s fine with it.
 
What are you managing for? Timber? Deer? Turkeys? Nongame? All of the above? How do you rank and weight each of these?

Priorities and the importance of each will change your prescription.

For example, poplar can be a great timber tree and often grows on sites where oak doesn’t do near as well.

Do you have any blackgum? I’m just north of you and it’s a top browse specie here.

And there’s a balance on how heavily you thin- a real heavy “wildlife thinning” can cause trees to sprout epicormic branches- new limbs along the trunk- in response to light hitting the trunk. Also have a rhyme or reason for where you put it. Too much cover and browse across the whole property is great for deer but hard for hunting.




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#14 may be catalpa
 
What are you managing for? Timber? Deer? Turkeys? Nongame? All of the above? How do you rank and weight each of these?

Priorities and the importance of each will change your prescription.

For example, poplar can be a great timber tree and often grows on sites where oak doesn’t do near as well.

Do you have any blackgum? I’m just north of you and it’s a top browse specie here.

And there’s a balance on how heavily you thin- a real heavy “wildlife thinning” can cause trees to sprout epicormic branches- new limbs along the trunk- in response to light hitting the trunk. Also have a rhyme or reason for where you put it. Too much cover and browse across the whole property is great for deer but hard for hunting.




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I primarily care about deer hunting. Although, I don’t want to butcher up a timber sale in the future either. I care about turkey some, but never had much luck and the mosquitos start biting me. I want to do pockets of TSI around my food plots. I haven’t seen any blackgum.


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#14 may be catalpa

I was thinking that too after looking at various species online. I just need to go get a leaf and compare directly, verse just by memory.


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#14 may be catalpa

I was thinking that too after looking at various species online. I just need to go get a leaf and compare directly, verse just by memory.


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If you think it may be catalpa, also look up royal paulownia. It’s an invasive with large, heart shaped leaves.


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#14 may be catalpa

I was thinking that too after looking at various species online. I just need to go get a leaf and compare directly, verse just by memory.


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If you think it may be catalpa, also look up royal paulownia. It’s an invasive with large, heart shaped leaves.


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Thanks. I’ll check it out. I only have seen a few instances of this tree and it has never spread.


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Sounds like you're developing a solid plan. A few more things to consider:

1) Form and/or position in the stand. If you have lots of multi-stemmed trees or areas of overstocking, sometimes you must decide which trees to remove simply to decrease competition. Low forks, excessive sweep, injury, and branching can all help determine which to keep vs. remove.
2) Shade tolerance. When you open up the timber and sunlight hits the ground some of those stumps will sprout and some will not. Do a quick search on "shade tolerant tree species" to help guide in this regard.
3) Although gums aren't the most highly valued, they'll still make a log one day and depending on your regional market they're worth something even if it's just pulp. I won't cut a gum "just because it's a gum" if there's no other crop trees around.
4) Safety. Flying along felling "little stuff" it's easy for the focus on safety to fade a little as the day wears on. Vines connecting trees can easily pull the 3-5" diameter tree you cut a moment ago with the tree you are currently felling. Little stumps left even an inch or two above the ground but still hidden by leaves can be tripping hazards. Felled saplings especially in severely overstocked stands are prone to hanging/lodging. Just because it's small diameter doesnt mean it's not hazard.

Good luck to you!
 
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Because I am not familiar with trees in AL all I can offer up is that you understand what you have and see if it has a place in your plan. You list "maples" - there are 2 families of maples...hard/sugar maple (which can bring a nice price here) and will be browsed by deer or soft/red/silver maple (which can be browsed but has far less timber value). You also list yellow poplar...here again it brings a decent prince and gee will browse it. The biggest thing is you don;t want only a few species and you have to understand or prioritize what it is your trying to do. Some trees won't hinge well, while others will. Some will stump sprout far better than others. Some produce mast for other animals, while others will provide browse...if you can bring it down to the deer. Every tree is a situation that you simply have to consider. Also consider just clearing some areas and planting some additional diversity as well. The key is promoting the trees you want and trying to get the most out of the trees you are taking down. Also don't hinge a few trees with a remaining canopy and expect them to live. A hinged tree or even a stump will still need sun light to survive.
 
In MO, the state forester made a forestry plan for me and assists with TSI. They also covered the cost of a forestry plan developed by a private consulting forester. You might check with your local Conservation Dept. or NRCS.
 
Here is my experience with some of the trees you mentioned. I fear cutting no tree :) but I have only ever had habitat as a goal. If someone wants to grow timber I'm not a good example or source of how to.

White oaks, I hinge them or cut them. They stump sprout and new white oaks seem to sprout in the openings. I too have a lot of white oaks so I don't mind killing some.

Red oaks, I kinda leave these alone I dont have many.

Dogwood, yep they sprout like crazy when you cut them.

Maple, either cut, they stump sprout and hinge OK

Holly tree, if they're tall they aren't really offering much. Maybe good tree stand cover if one is next to your stand. Don't rule out flat cutting them. Holly will stump sprout and deer around me target the new growth.

Hickory, I hinge small ones and just cut the big ones down. small ones survive hinging pretty well.

Sycamore, Ive never really seen them browsed but never really went out of the way to look. Sycamore is great tree to hinge cut low or just cut off if you're trying to make cover. Cut one and it will explode with stump sprouts. Same thing when you hinge it. My favorite tree to increase stem count.

Sweetgum, I'm with you but they do make stem count quick after opening an area up.
 
Here is my experience with some of the trees you mentioned. I fear cutting no tree :) but I have only ever had habitat as a goal. If someone wants to grow timber I'm not a good example or source of how to.

White oaks, I hinge them or cut them. They stump sprout and new white oaks seem to sprout in the openings. I too have a lot of white oaks so I don't mind killing some.

Red oaks, I kinda leave these alone I dont have many.

Dogwood, yep they sprout like crazy when you cut them.

Maple, either cut, they stump sprout and hinge OK

Holly tree, if they're tall they aren't really offering much. Maybe good tree stand cover if one is next to your stand. Don't rule out flat cutting them. Holly will stump sprout and deer around me target the new growth.

Hickory, I hinge small ones and just cut the big ones down. small ones survive hinging pretty well.

Sycamore, Ive never really seen them browsed but never really went out of the way to look. Sycamore is great tree to hinge cut low or just cut off if you're trying to make cover. Cut one and it will explode with stump sprouts. Same thing when you hinge it. My favorite tree to increase stem count.

Sweetgum, I'm with you but they do make stem count quick after opening an area up.

I don't mess with MO sycamore, it is a mushroom factory!
 
I don't mess with MO sycamore, it is a mushroom factory!

I never noticed that. Do they grow out of the dead wood?
 
Let me start by saying I am not a forester, but you should contact one at some point in my opinion. Where I live, a State Forester will visit your property one time to give you some insight on what you have, and a rough idea of how to proceed to accomplish your objectives.

As far as timber values, Walnut is your most valuable tree at roughly $1,100 pre 1k board ft. Red oak, Cherry, Hard Maple (sugar), and Ash are you next most valuable trees ($700ish / 1k board ft.). Soft Maple (silver), Hickory, and Sycamore also have some value ($250ish / 1k board ft.). I am not familiar Pine or Yellow Popular prices, and I don’t imagine Dogwood, Holly, or Cedars have any commercial value whatsoever. Also, if you can safely cut out the extra trunks where you have more than one, especially if one is significantly smaller than the other, that would be beneficial. Note; if you have the Emerald ash borer down there, you might as well cut them out (or timber) the ash because they’re gonna die anyway. As for wildlife value, Far and away, the oaks and maples offer the greatest value deer. It seems to me they can get to the dogwood and holly for browse, and the pines offer cover, so I would not be in a hurry to clear them out. Bill gives good advise above on the decision to cut or hinge the different trees.

My personal pecking order for the of what to keep and what to cut would look something like this (most to least desirable). Oaks, maples, pines, Walnuts, Cherries, Dogwoods, Holly, Popular, Cedar, Hickory, Sycamore, Sweetgum, Ash (if emerald ash borer is present).

Just my two cents. Good luck, keep us posted!
 
Definitely consult a forester. Mature poplar bring $3k/acre in my area. I wouldn’t exterminate all of them if you care about future timber harvests. Tree prices are regional though.


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Thanks everyone for the comments. We are definitely gonna go the forester route. I’m hoping we can seal the deal on a neighboring 80 acres of pine that is ready for its first thinning. I am getting ancy because the timber company isn’t responding as fast as I want. If that deal goes through then I get a consultant in to mark the new 80 plus our existing 160 acres to accomplish my goals.

If we can’t get the deal done, I want to go make some small pockets for potential bedding / browse locations as well as key areas around existing food plots.


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In MO, the state forester made a forestry plan for me and assists with TSI. They also covered the cost of a forestry plan developed by a private consulting forester. You might check with your local Conservation Dept. or NRCS.

I think we tried this once but could never get an Alabama forester out to our place. It could have just been busy schedules on both sides.


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Because I am not familiar with trees in AL all I can offer up is that you understand what you have and see if it has a place in your plan. You list "maples" - there are 2 families of maples...hard/sugar maple (which can bring a nice price here) and will be browsed by deer or soft/red/silver maple (which can be browsed but has far less timber value). You also list yellow poplar...here again it brings a decent prince and gee will browse it. The biggest thing is you don;t want only a few species and you have to understand or prioritize what it is your trying to do. Some trees won't hinge well, while others will. Some will stump sprout far better than others. Some produce mast for other animals, while others will provide browse...if you can bring it down to the deer. Every tree is a situation that you simply have to consider. Also consider just clearing some areas and planting some additional diversity as well. The key is promoting the trees you want and trying to get the most out of the trees you are taking down. Also don't hinge a few trees with a remaining canopy and expect them to live. A hinged tree or even a stump will still need sun light to survive.

Definitely the cheap maple. I believe they are red maples. I plan to open the canopy a lot in certain areas.


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After we've had 2 loggings done on our 220 acres, I can vouch for stump sprouts if you want to make thicker cover / browse for free. My area doesn't have some of the trees you mention, but red maples & oaks will stump sprout readily. If you want to get any size to them - cage the stumps or deer will eat the sprouts to the ground until the stump dies and you have nothing. Our stumps sprouts grew 3 to 5 ft. tall after caging in a year. Thicker cover and browse at deer level.

We had a licensed forester come in and the first thing he asked was, " What are your goals - habitat for deer and other game ……. future timber sales ……. or both ?? " We wanted both, so he laid out a plan after walking our woods tracts. We then marked the trees we wanted to keep and the rest (mostly) were cut. He saw clues of disease on some trees we wouldn't have noticed, so he recommended cutting those. Well worth the forester route in my estimation.
 
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