Tree planting in wooded areas

[westonwhitetail]

I have 10 acres that is completely wooded except for 2 small food plots. I want to grow some chestnuts from seed again and try some sawtooth oaks as well. Being I have already filled up my open areas with either food plots and a small chestnut plot from a couple years ago, I'm wondering what other people have done in my situation.

Should I clear a larger area and plant all the trees I grow in an opening? Or could I select cut some undesirable trees (lots of basswood and elm in my woods) and fill the open canopy with a few trees in each spot? Or could I even just plant some in areas that are getting some sun and not clear any other trees?

What would you do, besides buy more land? (which would be my first choice if I didn't have student loans!)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[broom_JM]

I have a similar situation on one 12 acre property and we had a logger remove marketable timber to make room for more desirable mast producing hardwoods

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[chickenlittle]

Depends what they will compete with. A chestnut will get 40 to 50ft tall. Sawtooth are a little taller. If they are likely to get over canopied by faster or taller trees, it will take on going maintenance. From a maintenance perspective, it is probably easier to make an organized orchard rather than planting into a thinned canopy.

 

[j-bird]

I have tried to grow direct seeded sawtooths in a select cut area where I thought they would get enough sun to no success thus far. Now is that my fault, was that critters eating the acorns, I don't know. All I know is that I have had far better success with direct seeding in areas where you can control competition better and give them full sun light. I actually chose to line the edges of 2 of my perennial plots in sawtooths and they did just fine and those grown on the back porch did even better. My plots are surrounded by CRP so they get full light with little influence from any shade from timber.

I have heard it said and I have sort of proven it to myself.....you can't grow trees in the woods! Instead i simply try to promote what I already have growing by thinning around those trees when possible.

My 2 cents worth is if your going to plant in the woods - you will need to clear a space much like you would for a plot to have the best results. Not saying it's impossible to plant a tree in the woods and have it survive and grow.....but do you have time for it just to survive?

 

[westonwhitetail]

I have a similar situation on one 12 acre property and we had a logger remove marketable timber to make room for more desirable mast producing hardwoods

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Did you try planting anything in the areas that were cleared or was the logging strictly to free up existing mast bearing trees?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[westonwhitetail]

By the sounds of it, it'd be hard to grow in small openings without probably yearly maintenance to keep the trees free of competition.

Maybe I expand my existing food plots and plant the edges?

J-bird did you plant the acorns in the woods directly or grow seedlings indoors and move them out? I plan to start them inside and plant in the spring


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[H20fwler]

I like to plant chestnuts on the south side of a woods for good sun, if your ten acres is a woodlot you could trim back some to put them in. If it's ten in a big woods never mind.

 

[j-bird]

By the sounds of it, it'd be hard to grow in small openings without probably yearly maintenance to keep the trees free of competition.

Maybe I expand my existing food plots and plant the edges?

J-bird did you plant the acorns in the woods directly or grow seedlings indoors and move them out? I plan to start them inside and plant in the spring


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Both. I direct seeded several and not a one came up that I could find and I marked them with flags. I transplanted a few that I grew at the house and those that I can find have not done well either. They have merely survived at best. I think the amount of direct sunlight is just difficult to get as the sun moves across the sky. In my plots it's not near the issue and they have done much better. I think part of it is the actual sun light and some of it is the actual soil temp as a function of sun light. The ones at the house germinated much sooner than those in my plots and those in the woods never seemed to germinate at all. If your willing to dig thru my property tour thread (J-birds place) I tried to take pics and monitor that process there (start on page 10). I have some in my plots that are a foot tall or better....not all of them, but some. I hope to put all of them in grow tubes next year to help bolster growth as well.

 

[yoderjac]

What are your objectives? It seems a bit backwards to me. It is kind of like saying "I really like using a drill but I'm having a hard time pounding these nails in with it". If you objective is to harvest and eat chestnuts, then I'd clear-cut your woods and plant an orchard. Since most folks don't eat sawtooth, I doubt that is your objective. If you are trying to manage deer, you are out of luck, it is simply an unachievable objective in your situation. If you are looking to improve the hunting on your property, we are back to the hammer and drill. Chestnuts and sawtooth may not help at all.

You may be way ahead of me here. Perhaps you've done and analysis of the area and have determined that chestnuts and sawtooth will improve your hunting. It would probably be a quite unique situation where they would be the best approach on a 10 acre property, but it is possible depending on the surrounding land.

I'd just say it is best to make sure you have clear and achievable objectives and that the habitat improvements you want to make support them. Keep in mind that a guy with a couple thousand acres to work with can make some pretty big mistakes and recover pretty quickly. A guy with 10 acres has much less room for error.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[westonwhitetail]

Both. I direct seeded several and not a one came up that I could find and I marked them with flags. I transplanted a few that I grew at the house and those that I can find have not done well either. They have merely survived at best. I think the amount of direct sunlight is just difficult to get as the sun moves across the sky. In my plots it's not near the issue and they have done much better. I think part of it is the actual sun light and some of it is the actual soil temp as a function of sun light. The ones at the house germinated much sooner than those in my plots and those in the woods never seemed to germinate at all. If your willing to dig thru my property tour thread (J-birds place) I tried to take pics and monitor that process there (start on page 10). I have some in my plots that are a foot tall or better....not all of them, but some. I hope to put all of them in grow tubes next year to help bolster growth as well.

Tried finding your pics but couldn't. Maybe tapa talk page numbers are different than online?

Thanks for the info though, sounds like planting in an opening may be a better choice. I was looking for another way to do that maybe required less clearing cause I have to do it all by hand!

Hope your trees take off next year!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[westonwhitetail]

What are your objectives? It seems a bit backwards to me. It is kind of like saying "I really like using a drill but I'm having a hard time pounding these nails in with it". If you objective is to harvest and eat chestnuts, then I'd clear-cut your woods and plant an orchard. Since most folks don't eat sawtooth, I doubt that is your objective. If you are trying to manage deer, you are out of luck, it is simply an unachievable objective in your situation. If you are looking to improve the hunting on your property, we are back to the hammer and drill. Chestnuts and sawtooth may not help at all.

You may be way ahead of me here. Perhaps you've done and analysis of the area and have determined that chestnuts and sawtooth will improve your hunting. It would probably be a quite unique situation where they would be the best approach on a 10 acre property, but it is possible depending on the surrounding land.

I'd just say it is best to make sure you have clear and achievable objectives and that the habitat improvements you want to make support them. Keep in mind that a guy with a couple thousand acres to work with can make some pretty big mistakes and recover pretty quickly. A guy with 10 acres has much less room for error.

Thanks,

Jack

Yes you're right 10 acres isn't a lot. My objective is mainly to learn because I'm interested in growing trees and planting. Someday if I have a large tract of land I would like to create a larger orchard. If I experiment now, I hope I know what I'm doing when the time comes. Second objective would be to improve hunting on this piece of land,

So far, I've mostly worked on improving cover on this 10 acres, hinge cutting and planting pines trees. 2 small food plots are the other improvements I've made. I hoped to not clear another area for an orchard just because it's a lot of work by hand and I don't have a ton of room like you mention.

There are also many elms and basswoods I don't see having much value here, so that's where I thought I'd maybe just clear those out and plant my seedlings in the openings. Kind of trying to replace a lower value tree with some mast producing trees. There is currently not a lot or mast bearing trees besides hickory in my woods so I thought it might help. So I guess that was the reason I asked the question.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[yoderjac]

Yes you're right 10 acres isn't a lot. My objective is mainly to learn because I'm interested in growing trees and planting. Someday if I have a large tract of land I would like to create a larger orchard. If I experiment now, I hope I know what I'm doing when the time comes. Second objective would be to improve hunting on this piece of land,

So far, I've mostly worked on improving cover on this 10 acres, hinge cutting and planting pines trees. 2 small food plots are the other improvements I've made. I hoped to not clear another area for an orchard just because it's a lot of work by hand and I don't have a ton of room like you mention.

There are also many elms and basswoods I don't see having much value here, so that's where I thought I'd maybe just clear those out and plant my seedlings in the openings. Kind of trying to replace a lower value tree with some mast producing trees. There is currently not a lot or mast bearing trees besides hickory in my woods so I thought it might help. So I guess that was the reason I asked the question.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That helps. Here are my thoughts. You have competing objectives. Nothing wrong with that, you just need to figure out how you want to balance them. If you objective is educational, I would completely clear and area for an orchard. The size of the area will depend on how you balance objective. You will likely get only a few trees. I've planted some chestnuts in thinned pines. They are growing and some are doing fairly well, but with the competition, they are not growing nearly as fast as those in fields with substantial sun and less competition.

I've grown Dunstans from seed. Some may depend on your soils, but mine are over 5 years old and I get got the first nut on one tree. I'm planting them in volume. It will likely be another 5 years until the production becomes significant.

If you are trying to improve hunting on a small parcel, unless you have a very unique situation, I'd not focus on chestnuts and sawtooth. In fact, in most situations the best thing you can do to improve hunting is to make it as thick as possible from a habitat standpoint, then hunt it very lightly only when the wind is favorable.

Keep in mind that you won't kill many deer no matter what you do to improve it. I was one of the founding members of a suburban bowhunting organization focused on deer management in the suburbs. Developers developed the ridges in our county and donated the sides and stream valleys to the park system as stream valley parks which were not hunted. Deer would travel these corridors around the county during the day time and then come on to the ridges in the morning and evening and eat landscaping around the homes. Folks having damage would engage us to bowhunt there land. These parcels were any where from 3 to about 15 acres and the typical one was about 5 acres. Our focus was does for population control, but we would shoot a couple deer from a property and the deer would quickly learn. We could watch them night after night going to the neighboring properties where they were safe to feed. So, when you are hunting 10 acres, don't shoot a deer unless you really want it. It will significantly reduce you chances of shooting the next deer. A thick property hunted around the edges with good wind may give you slightly better opportunities.

So, what you do will depend on where you strike your balance.

Best of luck,

Jack

 

[JFK52]

All the elm trees on my home acreage are getting or have gotten dutch elm disease. This year I saw some of them with leaves turning yellow a few weeks ago. I am in the process of proactively removing all my elm trees. It is easier to cut them while alive then have them fall over when dead and hang up in other trees. I give the firewood away to a friend who uses it for campfires. It can also be used in outdoor wood burners. Bigger elm tree firewood needs to be split in the winter while it is frozen.
My take on the elms you asked about. I would remove them and make room for better trees like the ones you want to plant.

 

[H20fwler]

I wouldn't worry about your place being smaller at all. The first one I bought was small too, mixed hard woods that had been logged ten years earlier in a very agricultural area with other small woodlots. Very thick little woods with lots of low growth. I planted a twenty yard wide strip around it of mixed clover and switch grass, planted twenty five apple/pear trees down the south side and some chestnuts, dug in a koi pond south side for good water source. Planted confers and hazelnuts in the switch grass along the east side...established a good feed/mineral site in the thick cover at the east end of woods.
I see turkey and deer all the time on this place and its the best bunny hunting spot I have, I usually see at least one buck every sit hunting it with a bow, during gun season its a deer magnet.
Just because a place is small doesn't mean you can't do a lot with it...just keep the human pressure low and plant what deer like/need. I love my little woods....all eight acres of it!

 

[westonwhitetail]

That helps. Here are my thoughts. You have competing objectives. Nothing wrong with that, you just need to figure out how you want to balance them. If you objective is educational, I would completely clear and area for an orchard. The size of the area will depend on how you balance objective. You will likely get only a few trees. I've planted some chestnuts in thinned pines. They are growing and some are doing fairly well, but with the competition, they are not growing nearly as fast as those in fields with substantial sun and less competition.

I've grown Dunstans from seed. Some may depend on your soils, but mine are over 5 years old and I get got the first nut on one tree. I'm planting them in volume. It will likely be another 5 years until the production becomes significant.

If you are trying to improve hunting on a small parcel, unless you have a very unique situation, I'd not focus on chestnuts and sawtooth. In fact, in most situations the best thing you can do to improve hunting is to make it as thick as possible from a habitat standpoint, then hunt it very lightly only when the wind is favorable.

Keep in mind that you won't kill many deer no matter what you do to improve it. I was one of the founding members of a suburban bowhunting organization focused on deer management in the suburbs. Developers developed the ridges in our county and donated the sides and stream valleys to the park system as stream valley parks which were not hunted. Deer would travel these corridors around the county during the day time and then come on to the ridges in the morning and evening and eat landscaping around the homes. Folks having damage would engage us to bowhunt there land. These parcels were any where from 3 to about 15 acres and the typical one was about 5 acres. Our focus was does for population control, but we would shoot a couple deer from a property and the deer would quickly learn. We could watch them night after night going to the neighboring properties where they were safe to feed. So, when you are hunting 10 acres, don't shoot a deer unless you really want it. It will significantly reduce you chances of shooting the next deer. A thick property hunted around the edges with good wind may give you slightly better opportunities.

So, what you do will depend on where you strike your balance.

Best of luck,

Jack

Thanks Jack, I do realize cover is king especially for a small property. That's where I have focused my projects in the past couple years. I agree with you that a few chestnuts and acorns aren't going to be magic and make a huge difference, but there will be satisfaction from it even if I get to see one deer eat one nut from a tree I planted in the future.

I think I'll expand my current foodplots to make room for a few trees instead of clearing a whole nother area. This should minimize the amount of clearing needed so I can leave the rest for cover.

 

[westonwhitetail]

All the elm trees on my home acreage are getting or have gotten dutch elm disease. This year I saw some of them with leaves turning yellow a few weeks ago. I am in the process of proactively removing all my elm trees. It is easier to cut them while alive then have them fall over when dead and hang up in other trees. I give the firewood away to a friend who uses it for campfires. It can also be used in outdoor wood burners. Bigger elm tree firewood needs to be split in the winter while it is frozen.
My take on the elms you asked about. I would remove them and make room for better trees like the ones you want to plant.

Dutch elm is running through my woods too, many of them are dead or probably on there way out. I was told that when the bark completely falls off a standing dead elm, thats when the wood is dry enough to burn. Don't know if its entirely true but Ive been cutting those out first and burning it, seems pretty good do far!

 

[westonwhitetail]

I wouldn't worry about your place being smaller at all. The first one I bought was small too, mixed hard woods that had been logged ten years earlier in a very agricultural area with other small woodlots. Very thick little woods with lots of low growth. I planted a twenty yard wide strip around it of mixed clover and switch grass, planted twenty five apple/pear trees down the south side and some chestnuts, dug in a koi pond south side for good water source. Planted confers and hazelnuts in the switch grass along the east side...established a good feed/mineral site in the thick cover at the east end of woods.
I see turkey and deer all the time on this place and its the best bunny hunting spot I have, I usually see at least one buck every sit hunting it with a bow, during gun season its a deer magnet.
Just because a place is small doesn't mean you can't do a lot with it...just keep the human pressure low and plant what deer like/need. I love my little woods....all eight acres of it!

Those are some nice bucks! Glad your works paying off. I've had a couple nice bucks stop by this summer, which is the first year I've had bucks come through outside of the rut. So i hope I'm heading the right direction and can have a little honey hole like yours someday!

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks Jack, I do realize cover is king especially for a small property. That's where I have focused my projects in the past couple years. I agree with you that a few chestnuts and acorns aren't going to be magic and make a huge difference, but there will be satisfaction from it even if I get to see one deer eat one nut from a tree I planted in the future.

I think I'll expand my current foodplots to make room for a few trees instead of clearing a whole nother area. This should minimize the amount of clearing needed so I can leave the rest for cover.

I certainly understand that. I have places with permission to hunt where I have a better chance of shooting a mature buck than on my farm, but that is where I hunt. There is certainly a level of pleasure and satisfaction in seeing my work turn into venison even when I'm passing bucks and shooting does!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Brush farmer]

The tree you see to the left is an American Chestnut in its second year after being planted as a bare root seedling. I have a few of these and several other nut/timber species planted among existing woods. Growth is definitely slower. There usually isn't enough light for fruit trees or species that exist in forest edges in the wild. I reserve the larger breaks in the canopy for planting those. These spots are big enough to be considered more like small plots in themselves.
My Forest plantings are in small openings in the canopy created by dead trees or by me culling unwanted / damaged trees. I mark spaces that receive light under the summer canopy with a flagged stake as these spots are impossible to indentify when it's time to plant bare root trees. Some spots won't have much light and I'll cut some trees to make more, usually after I see that my new tree has established. This takes a little planning so that you don't damage your seedling when felling. I plan to continue this method to fill in spaces left by the borer killed Ash trees.

 

[westonwhitetail]

The tree you see to the left is an American Chestnut in its second year after being planted as a bare root seedling. I have a few of these and several other nut/timber species planted among existing woods. Growth is definitely slower. There usually isn't enough light for fruit trees or species that exist in forest edges in the wild. I reserve the larger breaks in the canopy for planting those. These spots are big enough to be considered more like small plots in themselves.
My Forest plantings are in small openings in the canopy created by dead trees or by me culling unwanted / damaged trees. I mark spaces that receive light under the summer canopy with a flagged stake as these spots are impossible to indentify when it's time to plant bare root trees. Some spots won't have much light and I'll cut some trees to make more, usually after I see that my new tree has established. This takes a little planning so that you don't damage your seedling when felling. I plan to continue this method to fill in spaces left by the borer killed Ash trees.

What you're doing is what I was thinking about trying at the begining of this thread. If you have had success doing it, I think I'll mark out a few areas and try it myself. Anything special you do to manage surrounding competition?