The 4.5 year old buck

[Howboutthemdawgs]

You may disagree, but nutrition and age are environmental variables, genetics is the physiological base you start from.

If nutrition and age are omnipotent, and genetics are low, then in a area say 1000-1500 acres, all deer in each age class would have the same size antlers because they all have the same sources of nutrition ... correct? Well we should know that is not the case by simple observation. In many areas of species development, bloodlines or genetics are what drives superior specimens ... horse & cattle breeding, deer farms, athletics, etc. Antler development has many studies that support genetics being a critical factor as without it age & nutrition cannot exploit genetics. Deer farms are a good example of selective breeding that allows nutrition and age to produce superior antler development.

I agree with you that saying genetics can be an excuse for not seeing large antlered deer when overhunting of bucks regardless of age is more the issue. Regarding age, by passing and allowing deer to get beyond 3.5 yo means that all of those animals, including the superior class to pass on their genetic traits. When folks hammer everything with a horn it's no wonder they aren't seeing big bucks.

There are 17 sub-species of whitetail in north america ... http://www.whitetailsunlimited.com/i/p/bk_distribution.pdf . Odocoileus virginianus borealis is the largest of the whitetail subspecies and is found in central to eastern Canada south through Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Illinois with the key buck in Florida being the smallest..

To some extent the argument is the chicken and the egg. Age, nutrition, and genetics are all tied together; however, genetics is the foundation that allows for exploiting antler growth.

I guess my “argument” is genetics are uncontrollable in a free range herd. I think they are a variable for sure but it’s not one that we should bother ourselves with as hunters and managers. Science has proven we have no idea what we are doing in that regard on free range deer!
There have been plenty of examples of low quality areas with supposed bad genetics producing giant bucks with the right two ingredients…nutrition and age. In none of those properties were the genetics managed, if that is a thing.
But just like each of us and every living thing, your genetic blueprint accounts for something I’ll definitely agree with that.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

This is the golden nugget of this entire thread. For the majority of us, the mature bucks we pursue are the bottom tier of the genetic makeup in an area and we formulate skewed visions of what the overall genetic quality is. Here in PA, any buck that expresses a glimmer of hope at being a giant is gunned down long before they reach the age of 3 years old.

100% agree here. In my area of Pa. (3 points on a side is legal), a buck with those 3 points is likely to get shot. You might be able to span the width of the rack with one hand - but it's a goner. SAD situation - but it is what it is.

EDIT: At our camp, since we've been planting food plots and hard & soft mast trees (better nutrition) we've seen more big-racked bucks and bigger-bodied deer overall - does and bucks alike.

 

[Hoytvectrix]

I just had an interesting thought that it is somewhat relevant. It has to do with our perspectives on whitetails and other big game animals. For many big game animals like sheep or antelope There is definitely a lesser genetic component to their horns. I don't know very much about elk but it also seems to be somewhat the case with them compared to whitetail deer - there's less variability from bull to bull. With whitetails, You can definitely see trends in antler genetics come and go over time. Maybe it's the fact that they are so variable is what makes hunting and managing whitetails so fun.
I have often wondered why antlers matter so much to me. I think it might just be a greater appreciation for the animals as individuals and how those details fit into the memory of the hunt. I think another tool in the habitat managers toolbox should be making a concerted effort to appreciate the inferior racked bucks more.

 

[roymunson]

I'll agree with the "good die young" sentiment. We had a spindly 3 year old that probably went in the 130s. Had the frame to turn into one of those 160" deer given the age. He got whacked over a corn pile early november running does. Totally legal, but that's the deer that'd put on the inches. Had a 2 year old with matching muley forks on his G2. Short nose, short beams, just a classic 2 year old with a TON of upward potential, whacked first chance the neighbors got.

I've heard the arguement Wind Gypsy is bringing up about overall health of deer and "unlocking" genetic potential because mom genetically says "there's enough food and safety here, go ahead and grow big antlers". Can't say I've seen it anecdotally just yet, but we're operating under that assumption. Hope its true.

 

[Wind Gypsy]

I've heard the arguement Wind Gypsy is bringing up about overall health of deer and "unlocking" genetic potential because mom genetically says "there's enough food and safety here, go ahead and grow big antlers". Can't say I've seen it anecdotally just yet, but we're operating under that assumption. Hope its true.

The main bummer with it is if most of the 1 YO bucks disperse you don't get to be the benefactor of providing the optimal conditions for the does. You're benefitting someone else with most of those high potential buck fawns but hopefully we get to be the benefactor of other's work occasionally too.

 

[North Mo]

The point made about buck dispersal has me thinking about Antler Point Restrictions that we had in Northern Missouri before the big CWD scare. My perception was that it did help in the number of bigger antlered bucks we saw and at least it added another year or two to many young bucks. The genetic and age problems were addressed by a hunting club I once belonged to in this area. After several years hunting on 2000 contiguous acres the antler size had dropped to where 125bc was the largest killed for 3 years straight. A state deer biologist toured the property and told us nearly every buck in that area would reach 130bc with age and he recommended we set our limit at 130. The club did that and within 3 years many 130 to 150 bucks were taken every season and even a few 160 to 180 bucks. This was done on property with good cover but very little ag or food plots and 20-30 gun hunters on the 2000 acres. All thru trigger control. Sure do wish some of my neighbors would try it. Cannot change that or the lack of APR’s so I will have to continue to develop a deer Mecca and hope for results.

 

[Bill]

^^^what that place is producing now is pretty darn impressive. I got to poke around the lodge this year. Part of that could be because they turned 2000 acres into 4000.

I'm not a big fan of the loss of the APR either.

 

[North Mo]

^^^what that place is producing now is pretty darn impressive. I got to poke around the lodge this year. Part of that could be because they turned 2000 acres into 4000.

I'm not a big fan of the loss of the APR either.

For the first several years of the club they had all of that 4000 acres it was very good then but way better now, the club’s focus was as an investment for the owners who’s interest was in paying off the mortgage thru the CRP payments and membership dues. Very little was ever put into habitat improvement. I border about 600 yards of that property but deer don’t have much reason to leave there, it is a real magnet. I have a lot more work to do. With neighbors like you and Tod in the area it’s to bad others can’t see the potential and at least let the 3 year old’s walk.

 

[Gravel Road]

I agree with an exception. We (my son) took out an old dud (I didn't forget the e, he was a dud.) this past season. There was another I would have dumped if he ever stuck his nose out. Both deer we had history with and they were already old, 6+, and never going to be much. But what they did do is kick A$$ and take names when it came time to rut. There is only so much room for mature bucks on a piece of ground. I'm all for opening up a bed for a good three year old with potential. I won't change genetics on my place but I may change the odds of getting a deer with good potential to stay on my place. I don't think this can be done without history with a certain buck though. If I didn't know them there is no way I could tell if they were 4 years old or 8 years old. I just can't seem to judge ages after 4 without history.

and for the record my son could have killed a deer with more inches then the one he did. But those deer were only 3.

Agree 100%. My target buck this year was an old, extremely heavy racked buck that didn't score squat but his body dwarfed every other buck, Every year since he showed up we've found the best deer lying dead. Even this year there was a nice 150's 12 pt that was killed in a fight in late October. Was it him? I can't say for sure, but I wasn't taking the chance. Now there's an open spot for another buck

 

[BenAllgood]

Stress is a dynamic that I believe needs as much attention as nutrition, age, and genetics. Deer need to feel safe so they exert as little energy as possible.

 

[roymunson]

This has been one of the more civil and enlightening threads I've been a part of lately. Thanks fellas!

Its a mind shift to hunt age class and hope the inches follow. But I've learned to find the thrill in the game of cat and mouse rather than how big the rack is. Someday I wanna play cat and mouse with a specific buck who has giant antlers too, but for now, I'm satsified to punch a tag on a 5 year old and then fuel up my chainsaw.

 

[sandbur]

Stress is a dynamic that I believe needs as much attention as nutrition, age, and genetics. Deer need to feel safe so they exert as little energy as possible.

I was thinking of the stress issue when we have very high deer numbers. The other side of the coin is that lots of fawns need to be born for the better chances of an exceptional one coming along.

Big bodies and slower( or smaller) antler growth might mean better survival in deep snow areas.


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