Starting Elderberries indoors from cuttings - Transferred from QDMA Forums

[yoderjac]

I mentioned this in my greenhouse thread as an aside, but I thought I might get more answers with a proper title.
Background:
I got 28 cuttings from Big Rock Trees along with some rootmaker 18-cell express trays. Most of them leafed out in the first two weeks. I really haven't paid much attention to them. They have been in the same greenhouse as my Dunstan chestnuts. I've watered them along with the Dunstans.
Today, I transplanted five more Dunstans to 5" bags that were clearly ready to go. This new greenhouse gives me a bit more space for 18" trays, so I pulled the trays that were primarily elderberries with a few chestnuts and moved them to one of small greenhouses. I noticed an issue. Some of the leaves are shrivelling up. I'm not sure why. Perhaps not enough water. They may need to be watered more often than the Dunstan chestnuts. Here is a pic:

I know it is not a great picture. You can see some of them look just fine, but others have the leaves curled and are drying up.
I wonder if this has something to do with the mix. I know chestnuts don't like wet feet. This mix (Farfard 3B) is very well drained with the rootmaker cells. I wonder if they just need to be watered more often.
I'd appreciate any thoughts.
Thanks,
Jack

I assume they are leafed out and alive soley on the stored energy in the actual cutting. That is a LOT of top sticking out the top of that tray. It will be interesting to see if you can keep those alive in a 18 cell tray. I had very little success with elderberry cuttings last year. Once they ran out of stored energy, they slooooowwwly died.
I think I screwed up and used a soil mix that did not hold enough moisture to support that big of a cutting? I think all my cuttings will go directly to their final destination. Thats what cuttings are great for. No fuss amd easy planting. Growing them indoors for months kinda defeated the purpose for me (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
Hope you can pull it off! Please keep us posted (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Not enough water. Isn't this horticultural stuff fun(INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Jack, I have always had trouble bringing things in that are supposed to go dormant for the winter. It seems they need to go dormant when the hours of sun are short the same as we need sleep at night. Others with more experience than I may give better answers but I might think about grow lights. Good hunting. "D"

Thanks guys. I'm learning. I've heard the same thing that it may be better to plant the cuttings directly. I just figured I'd try to give them a jump-start indoors. If this doesn't work out, I'll buy another set and direct plant them in the spring.
Big8,
Do you think the 18 cell is too small for the larger cuttings? Do you think they would have a better chance if I transplanted them into larger rootmakers?
Thanks,
Jack

Quote:
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Thanks guys. I'm learning. I've heard the same thing that it may be better to plant the cuttings directly. I just figured I'd try to give them a jump-start indoors. If this doesn't work out, I'll buy another set and direct plant them in the spring.
Big8,
Do you think the 18 cell is too small for the larger cuttings? Do you think they would have a better chance if I transplanted them into larger rootmakers?
Thanks,
Jack
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The ones that I managed to keep alive the longest in the 18's had the bud sticking JUST above the soil. This I think gives you the best rooot/shoot ratio and best chance for survical.
Switching to a bigger RM bags seems kinda silly to me. There are hundreds of Elderberry in the woods that you can make cuttings from and plant direct.....or buy from BR cheap, but adding a free/cheap cutting to a $$$ bag and taking up all that space seems very counter productive IMO (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
But to answer your question , I think % chance of success will go up with a bigger, DEEPER pot. More below the surface will allow that many more roots to develop.
Hopefully someone who has had better success will chime in (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Deeper pot will help.
I'd look at the treepots, they are 14-16" long and 2-4" wide. Cost is right too, cheaper than rootmaker bags and they are ribbed to grow roots down and not circle too.
Stuewe and Sons carries them as well as many other places.
http://www.stuewe.com/products/treepots.php

Yoder,
I actually think it's a combination of the plants not having established enough roots from the cutting before the leaves expanded and perhaps a little overwatering.
Have you slightly tugged on the cuttings to see if they have any roots on them?
Two weeks is pretty short so I doubt that proper root establishment occurred. The leaves flushed out most likely because of the warm greenhouse establishment.
I think if you want to root elderberry cuttings again you might want to get a heat mat with a thermostat control, so you can keep the rooting media warm and the tops cold. The media should be between 75-80 F and the tops around 50 F so the buds don't expand.

It also may be because the air temperature is to warm and the tops are breaking dormancy but the roots aren't developed enough to support the new growth. Usually when you are trying to get cuttings to root it is advisable to put them somewhere cool and keep a heated tray under to keep the soil warm. This will promote root development and keep the tops dormant.
EDIT: like Blitz described.

Wow! Thanks for all the great responses.
Big8,
John at Big Rock Trees cut the who sold me the cuttings said he made the cuttings with the right bud spacing to fit the 18-cell trays. I planted them with the pointed cut at the bottom of the cell. He also was nice enough to give me two of the rootmaker pots and he cut the two largest elderberry cuttings to fit them. They seem to be doing the best, hence my question about going to larger pots.
It is interesting how what is common and free for the taking in one area is hard to come by in the next. I have not found any elderberry on my property. They do grow in our area but are not common and I don't have a good local source where I can get free cutting. My hope was to get some started that I could use for cuttings down the road.
Letemgrow,
Thanks for the tip. My issue with using larger pots is having room in the greenhouse for them, not the pots. As it turns out, presuming this starting trees from seed is a success (referring to the Dunstans not the elderberry), I plan to expand it in future years. Sine we are a commercial tree farm, I was able to get a wholesale with rootmaker and just ordered a bunch of stuff for down the road.
Blitz & Honker,
I don't know if they have started to root well or not. I guess I didn't know enough when I started to try to heat the soil without the tops. They have all broken dormancy and have leafed out. So, at this point, should I continue to keep them in the greenhouse or move them to a cool area with a mat?
By the way, they were planted on Dec 9th so it is getting close to 6 weeks.
You mention over watering and grapevine says lack of water...I'm not sure what to think on this.
Thanks to all for the replies and insight!
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
I misunderstood, I thought the pics showed 2 wk's growth.
By 6 wks., they should have a well established root system (enough to support the plant growth). Those that have wilted, will most likely die. Take one or two of the wilted ones out and pull the cutting to see if roots have grown. How do they look like?
Do you have a heat mat or do you have to go out and buy one? I wouldn't go out and buy one specifically for those elderberry cuttings. They are so easy to come by and you could do direct planting later in the season (as suggested by other forum members), if you aren't interested in specific elderberry cultivars.
I have never grown cuttings in a greenhouse, then taken them out and put on a heat mat, so I don't know exactly what's going to happen to their top growth (it will definitely be stunted). If you already have a mat, maybe you could put a few pots on the mat and keep the rest in your greenhouse to compare their growth.

Thanks. I don't have a heat mat. If I can get some of these to survive, I'll be able to use them as a source for future cuttings. I will pull a couple of the wilted ones and check to see if they are rooting. If they look ok, I may take some of the healthier ones and transplant them to larger containers.

Blitz,
You nailed it! I was at the farm today. One of the tasks I did was to prune the persimmons that I had grafted female scions to male trees that I cut down. I had grafted multiple scions to each tree to maximize the chances one would take. I had multiple scions take on some trees so in addition to general pruning, I removed all but the best scion from each tree today. (You'll see how this relates later).
When I got back, I checked the elderberries. First I pulled one of the wilted ones:

It had very few signs of rooting. John forgot to include the rooting hormone, but I doubt that would have made a difference since the big issue was me not knowing what I was doing on this first go around.
You were exactly right. The energy stored in the scion was consumed in leaf out and there was no root system to support it.
Things get worse. Next I pulled one that looks like it is in good shape:

It has even less sign of rooting! I think this means my elderberries are likely all dead and some of them just don't know it yet. I plan to keep these in the greenhouse in the off chance one or two take.
So, based on your previous post, I decided to see if I could grow some persimmons from cuttings. I cut scions from the trimmings from today's pruning similar to the elderberries I received from Big Rock:

I decided to try 10 of them. For 7 of them I left 3 or 4 buds both above and below the soil line. Some folks posted that they thought the elderberry cuttings had too much above the soil to support. So, as an experiment, for two I left only 2 buds above the soil and for one I left a single bud above the soil.

Rather than putting these in a greenhouse, I set them on the window seal of a bay window. I don't have a mat designed for plants, but my wife had an old heating pad. I put the cells in a solid bottom flat and put the mat under that. If a root system starts to develop, I'll eventual raise them for air pruning, but for now I just want to get something started. I put the heating pad on its lowest setting. I'm hoping the coolness through the window along with light limited to the natural day will slow the top-growth until the root system can get established.
One final note. There was no place open today where I could get rooting hormone. I'm planning on trying to find some tomorrow. Maybe I'm wrong and should have put the scions in the refrigerator or something but I decided to put them in the soil today while they are fresh and pull them out and coat them with hormone before retuning them to the soil tomorrow. Mistake?
I'd appreciate any further advise with these. Presuming my elderberries don't make it, I'll just order another set of cuttings from Big Rock next spring and directly plant them in the ground.
As for the persimmons, my primary purpose is learning what I can do with cuttings. If they do work out, I may use them for rootstock and graft some improved more precocious variety If not, I can always plant them a know they will be female.
Thanks again to everyone for their insights in this thread!

Jack,
You might want to watch the temperature of the old heat mat you're using so it's not getting too hot.
Pulling the cuttings out of the pots today to apply rooting hormone won't be detrimental since you just planted the cuttings yesterday.

I tried growing ROD and elderberry cuttings inside the last few years. I've had the same thing happen to me. They leaf out right away, then after a few weeks they wilt and die. I've controlled the temperature and moisture and still nothing. In my opinion, the grow lights don't give them enough energy to root out. They simply use the energy stored in the cutting to leaf and then the grow light doesnt provide enough for them to root.
I have successfully grown cuttings outside in my garden in full sun, but never successful indoors under a set of grow lights.
I have not used rooting hormone with growing either indoors or outdoors. This could be a factor that is limiting mine from rooting indoors.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by Blitz
Jack,
You might want to watch the temperature of the old heat mat you're using so it's not getting too hot.
Pulling the cuttings out of the pots today to apply rooting hormone won't be detrimental since you just planted the cuttings yesterday.
==================================
Blitz,
Thanks! I actually turned the temp on the heating pad up a notch. I don't have a soil thermometer here at home. It is at the farm. When I touch the inside bottom of the solid flat, it feels very slightly warm to the touch. Do you think that is too warm? If so, I'll turn it back down. I could always place a towel or something between the mat and the flat if it is still too hot.
Well, I had quite the experience today. I finally found a local head shop and it was only a few miles from my home. It was on a street with businesses and a few old homes that had been rezoned commercial and re-purposed as businesses. Most had nice commercial signs for "Nails" or some other small business. I passed the place twice. It looked like an abandon home from the outside. No sign out front. I had to go into the driveway of a small HVAC shop next door before I saw the sign at the back of the parking lot. It was a piece of plywood leaning against a garbage can that someone had spray painted the word "Hydroponics" on. I went to the back door timidly thinking I may be going into someones house. When I opened the door I thought I had stepped into an episode of Hoarders! (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) Things were stacked from floor to ceiling everywhere.
An old guy with a heavy accent said "You must be the guy who called about rooting hormone." He lead me through the dark pathways down to the basement. It too was full with shelving lining all the walls. He reached up and grabbed a plain cardboard box and pulled out a bottle and said "That will be $20". It was clearly a cash and carry business. No credit card, no receipt, just a $20 bill one way and the bottle the other.
The only rooting hormone I've used before was a powder. The guy told me that was the least effective stuff and that a gel was much better because it stays on the plant and seals the wound. The stuff is called Clonex. Has anyone used it? The guy handed me a catalog when I left that has just about every growing supply you can think of.
I pulled each of the persimmons, dipped them in the gel, and put them back in the rootmaker cells.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack,
It sounds you had quite an experience at the hoarder's shop (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) .
Sorry, but I've never heard of the rooting gel 'Clonex'.
Well, I know this is not the scientific way of checking soil temperature (and it may not be very exact but still better than nothing): You might think about buying a cheap outside thermometer and sticking it in the pots you planted your persimmon cuttings in. This way you might get a kind of an idea of the soil temp (since you don't have a soil thermometer) in the pots resting on top of your 'heat mat'. If too warm, you might have to make adjustments (as you already suggested).

I did a bunch of transplanting chestnuts today from the 18-cell trays to 5" bags and 1 gal pots. My elderberries are a mixed bag. About half of them have wilted and dried up. I presume they are dead. Some of the "seem" to be doing very well. I'm not sure if they are still using stored energy or if they have developed roots.
I hope to be trying to start some the right way next week. In the mean time, while I was transplanting, I decided to take another look. Most of them were started in 18-cell trays, but I had two that were too large. John at Big Rock was nice enough to include a couple rootmaker pots for these. I think they are quart size. I started the two largest in these.
Well, one of them was was starting to wilt which seems to be the first step in them dying.

Since it was in a pot that I could disassemble rather than pulling it out of the soil, I thought I'd take a chance and see what was going on. The short answer is NOTHING. I opened and unwrapped the pot. I began gently pealing the soil back. There were no roots, just like the previous cutting I examined. I probably should have tossed it, but just for kicks, I used the tip of a zip tie and painted it with the clonex root hormone. Instead of putting it back in the rootmaker pot, I decided to put it in a 5" bag since they seem to retain water better.

I expect it to be dead in a week, but this is a learning experience. I found a place on-line where I could order inexpensive heating pads so I bought 5 of them. I'll try them with the next batch of cutting and may even use them for germinating the next batch of Dunstan Chestnuts.

Jack,
Decided to put my answer from the other thread here.
What I'm growing in the time lapse are weeping willows. My sons 7th grade science project is trying to determine what effect various rooting hormones have on cutting growth.
We went with Willows because they are pretty much bullet proof and we only have about 3 weeks to start and finish the project.
The ones in the pictures are just for pictures. We planted them in a rooting Gel so we could see the root growth. Actual science project specimens are planted in potting soil because we don't know for sure what is in the gel.
I think you have 3 issues going on with the Elderberry's
1. Their Elderberries and in my experience they are hard to grow.
2. They need rooting hormone
3. They need more water.
Here is our visible root growth.
C = Control "no rooting hormone" as willow don't require it.
1= Homodrin 1 recommended for woody species.
3= Homodrin 3 recommended for house plants and supposedly not good for woody species.

In this example it is clear that even though they don't need it H1 really boosts root growth.
I won't know about the ones planted in potting soil until the experiment is over and we wash the soil away to see what we have.
I have had the best success with Elderberries by planting them directly in the ground in November and letting them winter out in the ground. When they break bud in the spring they are off and running.
Here is the real group. We have 2 dying also, I believe this is a result of my son forgetting to water them (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED) and me having the grow bulb to close.

Bill,
Thanks! I appreciate the response here with all the other elderberry info. I'm learning as I go and every bit of information helps. I'm hoping to get some more cuttings in the next week or so. The rooting hormone I was able to grab locally was Clonex. The label says it 0.3%. That is between the 0.1% and the 0.8% you are using. I just ordered some of the 0.1% and 0.8% from Big Rock Trees. I used the clonex on the persimmons. I'll try the .08% Hormone 1 on my next batch of elderberries and persimmons if I try more of them.
Do you think that I'm better off starting these outside a greenhouse with limited light and keeping the tops cold while warming the soil would force the energy from the cutting to produce roots verses expending its energy opening buds and forming leaves?
I still have some elderberries that are looking good but it may just be a matter of time before they die. I had intended to use rooting hormone on these but I did not. I started with 25 plus a few extras that John threw in the order. I've lost about 14 so far with a few more that seem headed in that direction.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Great pictures Bill - I always tell people to use rooting hormone, then rarely use it myself. Based on your test I should live by my own rules and start using it every time!
Jack - I have no idea why you haven't had more success? I updated my thread from last winter showing how my elderberry cuttings did in the express 18's - basically the same size as the 18 cell tray? Check it out here:
http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthrea...t=47200&page=6
And I don't believe I used hormone either??
Your visit to the hydro shop sounded interesting. Those pot growers know their stuff (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
I'd be happy to send free replacements on the Elderberry if you want to try again?
-John

It is now January 28th. My oscillating fans arrived today so I set those up first. Next I decided to remove all of the shriveled up elderberries and check them for root development. Only one of them had any significant root development:

The rest were completely bald. I guess it is possible that under-watering may have contributed to the demise of this one plant, but I think the rest were a simple failure to root.
The ones that are still surviving are looking pretty good (but so did the dead ones before the shriveled up):

Next, I transplanted the rest of the runts and shut down the mini-greenhouse downstairs. That is the one I will use to star the next set of chestnuts.
It looks like I may be forced to accelerate my plans. I was hoping to hold off until Feb 3rd to plant the rest of the chestnuts. I check the seeds today and found that they are starting to put out roots in the fridge. I may be able to wait a few more days, but not long.
John,
This is my first crack at this and it is an experiment. Obviously I've done something wrong here. The cuttings you sent were in great shape. I checked out your thread. About how long did it take to produce those root systems you pictured. One difference could be the mix. I'm using Farfard 3B. I've been keeping these between 70 and 80 degrees and humidity levels between 50 and 80 percent. I've been watering them with the same frequency as the chestnuts and hadn't noticed that they were drying out any faster.
Thanks for the offer to replace them. Bigeight has offered to send me some this week. Very nice of him to go out of his way for me. He may already have that in process, so I want to follow through with that. If for some reason that doesn't work out, I'll let you know.
Based on what others on this thread have said, I plan to try to start the next set outside the greenhouse on heating pads trying to keep the tops cool and soil warm to see if I can generate some root development before the buds break.
Any failures here have been mine, not yours. I've been very happy with your product and great customer support.
Thanks,
Jack

Quote:
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
Bill,
Do you think that I'm better off starting these outside a greenhouse with limited light and keeping the tops cold while warming the soil would force the energy from the cutting to produce roots verses expending its energy opening buds and forming leaves?
==================================
Sorry Jack I missed this ?
Can't say, I've never tried any indoors but I have a couple to try. I always felt the beauty of cuttings was the elimination of having to dig a hole to plant them.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by Billb66
Sorry Jack I missed this ?
Can't say, I've never tried any indoors but I have a couple to try. I always felt the beauty of cuttings was the elimination of having to dig a hole to plant them.
==================================
Yes, that is my plan for the future with elderberries. Since I don't have any currently, I just thought I'd try to give these a jump start on spring. I also wanted to learn a bit about cuttings. The other feature of cuttings I like is the cloning feature. I'm not sure if that matters for elderberries, but I can control the sex and promiscuity and fruit quality for something like a persimmon. I also have my Jujubes in the back of my mind. They are pretty expensive and not true to seed. I have tigertooth which are grown on their own rootstock and I have a couple of larger silverhill (grafted) reserved for me for this spring. I'm wondering if I can clone the tigertooth since it is on its own rootstock. I could then either plant them directly or graft silverhill cuttings on to them and use them as rootstock. I hear Jujube is pretty hard to start from cuttings but it is possible. I thought I'd start with something easier like elderberries...ha.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
About how long did it take to produce those root systems you pictured. One difference could be the mix.
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I planted them at the end of January, and the "finished" picture was the end of May. So about 4 months. For sure longer than they should have spent in the Express 18.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
I'm using Farfard 3B. I've been keeping these between 70 and 80 degrees and humidity levels between 50 and 80 percent. I've been watering them with the same frequency as the chestnuts and hadn't noticed that they were drying out any faster.
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I used a Farfard too, but I don't remember which one (the bag is at the farm, not here). I placed a heating mat below the drip pan I had the trays sitting on. Looks like the same kind of pad you used.
Don't chestnuts have low water requirements? I watered all of my indoor stuff almost daily. If the soil was dry to the touch on top, they got a drink. With the rootmakers (and a good soiless mix) it seems pretty tough to over water. The excess runs out the bottom pretty quickly.
I hope you have some success with Elderberry. I know some guys have struggled with them. But it seems every one I've ever stuck in dirt takes off like crazy. Lucky I guess.
-John

Thanks John. If you look at that last picture I posted, there are two that are starting to wilt and probably won't make it. The ones that look good are really putting on growth. It is hard for me to believe that they are putting on that much growth without developing some roots. Perhaps watering was the issue. At first, I was watering all the plants as soon as the top of the soil dried out a little. Because the rootmakers are so well drained with the mix, I doused them each time I watered. As time went on, I enclosed the growing area and added a humidifier and heater to keep it between 70 and 85 degrees and between 50% and 70% humidity.
I wonder if the humidity control caused the soil to dry out more evenly rather than top down causing me to underwater. I considered this but would have expected all the elderberries to have reacted the same if that was the case. Eventually my mom gave me a moisture meter and I've been using that. When it hits the beginning of the dry range from the moist range, I water regardless of how the soil looks.
I'm just trying to figure out when to transplant the ones that survive. They are at 7+ weeks now but with the little rooting I've seen on the ones that I've culled, I'm not sure how long to wait. If yours were 16 weeks and in the cells too long, I may shoot for about 12 weeks.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Quote:
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
I'm just trying to figure out when to transplant the ones that survive. They are at 7+ weeks now but with the little rooting I've seen on the ones that I've culled, I'm not sure how long to wait. If yours were 16 weeks and in the cells too long, I may shoot for about 12 weeks.
Thanks,
Jack
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Jack,
When the water starts "running through" the mix it's time to move them. The will become increasingly difficult to water as the roots grow.
I think 12 weeks would be plenty on the healthy ones, if not sooner.
-John

Quote:
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Originally Posted by UFi911
Jack,
When the water starts "running through" the mix it's time to move them. The will become increasingly difficult to water as the roots grow.
I think 12 weeks would be plenty on the healthy ones, if not sooner.
-John
==================================
John,
Thanks. We were not talking about elderberry cuttings specifically (rootmaker in general) but I mentioned your "tough to water" indicator in an email conversation with Dr. Whitcomb. He said it is better to transplant from the cells before they get to the "tough to water" state. If I start to see any "tough to water" elderberries, I'll transplant before 12 weeks.
I plan to use the rooting hormone I just ordered from you with the next set of elderberries. I plan to start some of them on heating pads outside the greenhouse for a week or two and see if I can get the roots started before the buds break.
Thanks,
Jack

I received a boat load of elderberry cuttings from Bigeight today. A special thanks goes out to him.
Here is a step by step what I did based on what I have learned so far. I'm not saying this is the right way to start elderberries from cuttings indoors, but it is my best guess based on what happened last time and what I've learned.
The first thing I did was to go through all the cuttings. I started selecting them based on two criteria. The first was having two buds above and two buds below the soil line in an 18-cell tray cell. The second was size. Not so much length, but diameter. The first set of cuttings I got from John at Big Rick Trees all had two buds above and below the soil line and the reading I've done all confirms this is important. I had a lot of the first set that I bought from Big Rock die. After assessing the dead one, I found the most likely cause was that they ran out of energy before they were able to develop roots. I did not use rooting hormone on that first set. While I had both some small and large diameter cuttings succeed from the first set, but I had notably more large diameter cuttings survive. I think this is simply due to the fact that they have more energy to start with giving them more time to develop roots before they run out.
Here is a sample of a cutting I started with:

The next thing I did was to use my sharp pocket knife to make an angled cut at the bottom. With the first set, although I started with one set of buds below the soil, I think in some cases after multiple watering, the potting mix settled and the buds ended up above the soil line rather than becoming part of the root system. So, I was careful to make the angled cut just a bit below the buds so they would be well below the soil line.

Next, I dipped the end into the rooting hormone. I used the heavier percentage IBA stuff (hormone 3) for the elderberries. For the first couple, I dipped end in water first, but I found that got way too much rooting hormone on the cutting. I found that the natural moisture on a fresh cutting is plenty to get the hormone to adhere. I also found that before I tapped off the excess, I could use my finger to "paint" it up the cutting a bit further to cover most of what will be underground. I did not want to insert the cutting directly into the mix for fear much of the roting hormone would be wiped off as it went into the soil. So instead, I used my finger to make a hole.

I simply inserted the cutting into the hole and pushed the mix around it. The final step was to water it. Here is the result:

Here is the first 18-cell tray of the largest cuttings with 2 buds below and 2 buds above:

Here is the second 18-cell tray for a total of 36. These are smaller in diameter in general but they all have two buds above and two below. I put the rest in the vegetable crisper in a jumbo Ziploc bag to use as replacements if any of these die.

The next step was the setup. Last time I put the cuttings in a greenhouse and I think that stimulated top growth in lieu of rood development causing them to look great at first and then shrivel up when the energy stored in the cutting was gone. So based on some advise from others on the forums, I decided to try it a different way. I placing all of these next to a sliding glass door with a southern exposure but no artificial light. The idea is to keep the tops cool and slow leaf-out. At the same time I put a heating pad under then to warm the soil and stimulate root development. Time will tell if it works. The way I accomplished this was to place them in an express tray but I put a solid flat underneath. Under that I placed the heating pad. Under the heating pad, I placed a couple book end to end. The books are smaller than the express tray, so the cells sit in the heated flat rather than hanging from the express tray. I'm not worried about root pruning at this point and having the cells sit on the heated flat should warm the soil. I don't want them sitting in water, so I can simply pick up the express tray, water them and let them drain before returning the express tray to the flat. Here is the final setup:

Well that is it for the elderberries, but as I was storing the extras in the vegetable crisper I found a bag of Dunstan chestnuts that I had missed. There were 15 in the bag and 13 of them had a root radical. The other two looked in good shape. I did find one that didn't look viable. It had the white stuff on the hull, but it did have a root radical so I guess that white stuff doesn't mean a chestnut is not viable. Here is a pic:

 

[yoderjac]

I didn't take any pictures, but John and Big Rock Trees included 5 free yellow twig dogwood cuttings with my rooting hormone. I'm not sure if they have any wildlife value but my wife will love them as ornamentals, so I planted those cuttings just like the elderberries.
I finished up the night by culling a couple of the super-runts and checking out the rooting. The root system did not look all that bad but there was just no top growth leaf development:

Thanks,
Jack

I was just thinking that I've posted a lot of pictures of the failures I've had with the elderberries. I just thought I should post a few of some I consider a success. I ordered 25 elderberries from Big Rock, a mix of red and black. John through in a few extras. On 12/9/2012 I planted 18 red and 10 black. While many of them failed due to the lack of rooting you've seen in this thread along with my inept learning, I do have some successes.
I have 11 left that seem to be thriving. They are about 1/2 black and 1/2 red:

After 8 weeks with this much top growth, I'm almost positive these plants have developed a root system. Based and advise I've received, I plan to wait until 12 weeks to transplant the ones still in the 18 cell tray.
Thanks,
Jack

It is February 4th. When I got home and checked my plants, my best elderberry was starting to sag. I was sure it had to have a good root system by now, so I figured water must be the issue. I watered them and went out to dinner. When I got back, it was doing fine again. So, I decided not to wait for 12 weeks. I think the plant was using more water than the cell could handle. I also really wanted to check out the root system, so I decided to do a transplant.
Here it is before the transplant:

Here is the plant after extracting it from the cell:

The root system is in nice shape. Lots of nice white root branching.
Here it is after the transplant to a 5" roottrapper:

After looking at this one, I decided to transplant the next two largest ones as well.
Thanks,
Jack

I decided to transplant the next two largest elderberries today. I am not beginning to wonder if 18 cell trays are the best container for starting them. These two elderberries were smaller but were started at the same time, just from smaller cuttings. In both cases, i ripped the roots when trying to remove them. I had squeezed the cell like I always do to help loosen the soil from the sides of the cell. I have no problem removing trees like chestnuts, but the roots on elderberries are more delicate. In hindsight, I probably ripped of some roots on the larger elderberries yesterday, but the place where they happen to rip left a lot more attached to the plant. In this case I lost a significant amount of root mass. It is quite possible I will loose both of these plants. Both plants had good rootballs to start with.
I'm wondering now if elderberries are better started in small quart sized rootbuilder II type pots. These are held together with cable ties. They can be clipped and the pot unwrapped from around the plant. This would likely cause less damage to the roots than trying to lift them from cells.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
I'm wondering now if elderberries are better started in small quart sized rootbuilder II type pots. These are held together with cable ties. They can be clipped and the pot unwrapped from around the plant. This would likely cause less damage to the roots than trying to lift them from cells.
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Jack,
The "holes" on the 18 cell trays are pretty sharp. They grab roots easily and don't like to let go. The Express 18 is a little more forgiving yet the same size container.
But you are right, the RootBuilder II is probably better for something like elderberry. The quart size would sure work, the gallon size might be even better, they could probably spend the whole winter in the gallon size.
MISSING PICTURE - (Original post had picture as an attachment rather than a link)
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Here is a picture of the 1 gallon assembled.
MISSING PICTURE - (Original post had picture as an attachment rather than a link)
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And here is a picture of it before it is put together.
-John

John,
Thanks. These were actually in the express trays. I found the regular cells (once cut apart) were easier to remove plants from than the express cells. I typically squeeze the cells a bit causing the plastic to bend a separate a bit from the soil before I extract the plant. With the regular cells, I can do this on all three levels as the cell tapers down because the plastic is thin and flimsy. With the express cells I can only do this at the top. It doesn't seem to matter for the chestnuts.
As I looked at the debris in the express cells, it appears the roots actually grew through the bottom of the cell a bit and sort of gripped the cell when they desiccated. Next time I transplant one, I'll be sure to check the bottom first and detach anything I can.
I got a commercial account with rootmaker because of the tree farm and bought a bunch of the gallon sized rootbuilder II containers. I ended up with more chestnuts that made the cut than I had fabric bags.
I think if I ever start elderberries indoors again, I'll try to quart size like the two you gave me.
Thanks,
jack

As I was watering tonight, I decided to count the number of chestnuts that have sprouted since I planted the batch on Jan 29th. I came up with over 40% that have sprouted already. As I was checking the elderberries cuttings that I planted on Feb 2nd, I noticed that a few of them that had larger more fully developed buds are just starting to open up. I think this is a little too fast. It seems like those particular elderberries are not moving much slower than the original set that I got from Big Rock. I'm hoping that the heating pad underneath is speeding root development. The cuttings with less developed buds don't show any signs of opening yet. I did not consider bud size as part of my criteria for selecting the cuttings that I planted. I guess that factors into the equation as well.
By contrast, the persimmon cuttings I started on Jan 20th are not showing any sign of buds breaking. It will be 3 weeks this weekend and I'm hoping that they are developing roots. I'm considering moving some of them to the greenhouse this weekend so they get more light and heat. It is hard to tell if they are still alive as they stand

 

[yoderjac]

The elderberry cuttings I got from Big Rock all have big buds on them. The cuttings that BigEight sent me were a mix. Some had large buds some had small buds and some had tiny buds.
I'm trying to understand the role that bud size plays. Here is what I have observed so far:

The top-growth so far seems to be directly related to bud size, not cutting diameter or height. I wonder if the cuttings with small buds that are well behind in top growth are putting more energy into root development. Or, could it be just the opposite where it takes more energy to develop top growth from an underdeveloped bud and therefore they are putting less energy into root development.
Well, time will tell which it is or if bud size is not a factor at all.
Thanks,
Jack

Quote:
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Originally Posted by bigeight
I think all my cuttings will go directly to their final destination. Thats what cuttings are great for. No fuss amd easy planting. Growing them indoors for months kinda defeated the purpose for me (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)
==================================
Jack,
I'm actually wondering the same thing. What do you hope to gain by growing these indoors? Seems like a little extra growth would be drastically offset by the extra effort to plant. Just curious.
Wish I had as much drive to grow things as you do!

Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gator
Jack,
I'm actually wondering the same thing. What do you hope to gain by growing these indoors? Seems like a little extra growth would be drastically offset by the extra effort to plant. Just curious.
Wish I had as much drive to grow things as you do!
==================================
Gator,
For the elderberries I may gain nothing but experience. I have a large Dunstan chestnut project going on so I have the setup in place right now anyway. We have no elderberries right now around our place. My objective for this first set of elderberries is to use them to brush in a slightly elevated box blind. They are about the right height and density and I can trim the tops from the windows of the blind. I'm trying to keep the blind from sticking out like a sore thumb.
I know that elderberries are hard to start indoors. I just figured that I could get a jump on growth by starting them indoors. My soil is fairly heavy clay and tends to crust. I'm now rototilling loaders full of turnips and pine needles into the soil around the blind. So, planting these from containers in the spring should be easy (but not as easy as just sticking them in the ground).
In the longer run, I plan to use elderberries as part of my QDM to provide some of the feathering from mature pines to my fields. These I will plant just as Bigeight says. From a timing stand point, I'm hoping to use the plants I start indoors to get cuttings for the QDM effort. The bigger the jump I can get on development of the indoor started plants, the more cuttings I'll be able to take from them for direct planting.
The other aspect of this project was to get some hands-on experience with cuttings. If you look at the last couple of posts on my Sex Change thread: <http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthrea...t=47890&amp;page=8 you will see I'm trying to apply some of my lessons learned to a much harder tree to start from cuttings, persimmons.
While elderberries have been problematic for me to start indoors, as Big8 says, they are easy to start outdoors. Persimmons are hard to start indoors and likely impossible by just sticking them in the ground from what I read. With something like persimmons, the advantage of propagation through cuttings are much greater than elderberries. Only female trees produce and I'm guaranteed to get a tree with identical genetic makeup at the scion donor. So, I can control sex and to some degree promiscuity. Common persimmons in a natural propagation setting are very slow to produce. Maybe 8 years if I'm lucky. I'm hoping that with care and feeding using the rootmaker system, I can speed this up. Only time will tell. Deer don't seem to bother my persimmon trees much. That means I can plant them without significant protection.
Tickrancher has graciously offered to send me some of his trimmings this year from some improved varieties. My first use will be to graft them to male root stock already established naturally, but I'll probably exhaust most of that this year. I need to keep enough males for pollination. So, another possibility is to grow these persimmons in rootmakers but graft on scions from the improved varieties (which are faster to produce).
So, while Big8 is absolutely right, I would not recommend starting elderberries indoors for most folks, in the big picture of things for me, it has both educational value for me and provides a local source for cuttings as fast as possible.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Roger that. I knew there was a good reason so thanks for clarifying.
I love the idea of edge feathering the fields with elderberry and I'll likely do it as well but I must deal with my kudzu first (INTERNAL IMAGE LIKE EMOTICON REMOVED)

Yes, I've been following your Burnt Fletchings thread. Quite the challange!

It is now Feb 13th. I decided to transplant one more elderberry from the cell to a 1 gal rootbuilder II pot. In a previous post I mentioned tearing some roots when transplanting elderberries previously. This time, I tried to get creative. I used a couple corner bracket there were just the right size for the small holes in the lowest tier of the cell and the flat end of a marker for all the other holes in the cell. As I pulled upward on the plant, I also used those objects to push the root ball from the bottom. I did not take a picture, but this elderberry had a very nice root ball on it. None of the roots were torn on extraction with this method. I think I will try to craft a device that allow me to push up through all the holes simultaneously wild pulling upward on the plant for elderberries and any other plant that has root tearing issues. That would make extraction much quicker than the way I did it manually.
Thanks,
Jack

It is Feb 18th and the elderberries from Big Rock that made it are doing great. The ones I got from Bigeight seem to be doing very well, but it is still early to see if this technique will have less losses.
However, I found something today that look encouraging. All of Bigeight's elderberries have leafed out except one. It was a very small diameter cutting that had a large bud on top. The bud failed to open. However, look what is coming out of the soil:

This is not coming from the cutting stem but out of the soil. So, I presume this cutting must have developed a robust enough root system that it is putting up a new shoot.
I just found this interesting.

Do you remember if that cutting had a bud below the surface? Even a tiny one?? It's not jetting way out to the side off a bud is it?

Yes, all of the cuttings I planted had two buds above and two below the soil line. The cuttings I got from John at Big Rock were cut and some them had buds close to the soil line. As the mix settled over time with watering, some were exposed enough that they opened as buds. I think the purpose of putting buds below the soil line is that it is easier for them to root than it is to root through the bark.
So, when I cut the ones you sent, I made sure to cut them so the buds below the soil were near the bottom of the cell. So, a but would have had to travel a long way through the mix to surface. I think it is more likely the bud was the start of a rooting site and the root system is trying to surface and form leaves. That is just a guess. I'll know for sure when I transplant it.

Been following along with this and find it interesting. Enough so that I found some elderberry plants, made some cuts and got them stored.I had a few small pieces left over so I just set them in some water in a baby food jar, and set them in the south facing window sill. This is after 2 weeks, water only.

Just curious as to what might happen, so I removed them to check the stems, they had those little white specs forming along the stem and the bottom end flared open.

Didn't have any pots so I made some from water bottles,aslo drilled a few holes.

We are covered up with sleet and snow today but I braved the weather and got some dirt from the garden,added some sand,used some root hormone and now we shall see......? Not to worried about the outcome as I figure they will shrivel but one never knows how these things will turn out.

Timo,
Thanks for the post! I put my first batch directly in mix and they too leafed out like that. I think the issue was all the energy going into the leafing-out rather than forming roots. Eventually, a large percentage wilted and died when the energy stored in the cutting dissipated. Those that did root are doing great, but my success rate with that batch was under 50%
With my second batch I tried to slow leaf-out and stimulate root growth. I have not lost any yet, but it is still too early to tell.
Jack

Just thought I'd post an update. The pics below are from Feb 25th. On Sunday, I decided to weed an old raised flower bed outside my house. When I was done, just for the heck of it, I grabbed several of the leftover elderberry scions that Bigeight provided from the fridge, cut them into plantable cuttings, applied root hormone, and planted them in the flower bed. If they grow, I have a nearby source for future cuttings.
I still have a bunch left, but I don't think I'll need them to replace any that I've planted. They are looking pretty good:

If I don't need them, I think I have a place near my barn at the property where the deer will leave them alone. I'll plant the rest of them there for more cutting sources in the future.
The ones from the first batch from Big Rock Trees that survived seem to be doing very well:

Thanks,
Jack

I just wanted to thank John at Big Rock Trees and BigEight one more time for thier help. There are about 22 elderberries around each stand. Some were from Big Rock and started early and transplanted into 5&quot; bags or 1 gal rootbuilder II pots. The rest were from BigEight and planted directly from rootmaker cells. In all cases, I dipped the rootball in watersorb before planting:

Just thought I'd update this post with a picture of some actual fruit:

This was taken today 6/6/14. It shows the first fruit I've seen on the Elderberries I planted.

Sweet. Congrats on the success.

Nice job....gotta love it when a plan comes together!

Wierd! I live in south central Indiana and my American elderberries just started to flower 2-3 days ago. They have some flowers the size of dinner plates.
The ones in the photo must be American Scarlet Elderberry since they are red berries. American Elderberry has purple fruit.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by elklover1979
Wierd! I live in south central Indiana and my American elderberries just started to flower 2-3 days ago. They have some flowers the size of dinner plates.
The ones in the photo must be American Scarlet Elderberry since they are red berries. American Elderberry has purple fruit.
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They are Red Elderberry (Scientific Name: Sambucus racemosa). I planted both Red and Black Elderberry. I have way more black planted but the red were the first to produce berries.
My original source was cuttings from Big Rock Trees (the details are back at the beginning of the thread). I tried to start them indoors and had poor success. Thanks to the generosity of Big8 who sent me a boat load of Black Elderberry cuttings, I have plenty of them growing now.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

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[yoderjac]

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