Seem to have a buck to doe ratio problem., help please

[willy]

The deer seasons have basically concluded here in NE except for antlerless season which will run through Jan. 15. My area has a high deer density.

In my last two sits of the year(Dec. 30, 31) I had the perfect conditions to get deer on their feet and see what was out there. The temps were below zero, moderate to light winds, and 5" of snow. To say I was pumped was an understatement. This area of the farm had only been hunted once all year and only 5 other days since Sept 1st had the farm been hunted at all. Only two of those had occurred in the past 6 weeks. The path to the stand was very low impact in and out and the stand overlooked 3 acres of ag beans that would yield well over 40 bushel an acre according to my farmer friend and my dad.

One of the bucks that came out was I'm fairly certain 4.5(missing his left side or he would have taken a bullet) A 3.5 came out based on my history with him, and then 3 2.5's came out, and the balance were 1.5.

In total 39% of the deer that fed in the field were antlered and the rest were antlerless. Of the antlerless, fawns made up the majority. I was quite surprised at the ratio represented by adult bucks and adult does. It came out to be basically 1 buck to .8 adult doe during those two hunts. I only counted what was in the field at one time and didn't count anything after deer started leaving nor when more entered. They left and came from the same area so I couldn't be sure they were new or ones that had already been counted.

It was good to see so many deer but it seems my buck to doe ratio is way out of wack. This year I had the most bucks I've ever had with busted up racks, some missing one side or all the tines on a beam. I feel I'm in a quandary as I believe the deer numbers are in sync with the habitat and if I don't take some deer I will have more mouths than I want/need to be able to keep my habitat healthy and sustainable long term.

Any ideas or comments to help me figure out what to do to get my buck to doe ratio closer to 1 to 2.+

Thanks

 

[Natty Bumppo]

That's great that you're seeing so many deer. The data you're presenting sounds like it is based on just your observations. If you're really thinking about the science of sex ratio, carrying capacity, etc. and how it affects your management goals IMHO you might need to gather more data that will refute or support your observations. For example, I had a terrible year....I saw nothing but does over a 6 week bow season....an 1 little spike. I might assume by buck to doe ratio is 1:10 or something like that. But that would be an erroneous conclusion, because on camera I know there were 6 or 7 different bucks using my land. I just never saw them.

Have you done a trail camera survey? That would be my first step. Beyond that I'm a little confused by your question. It sounds like you think there are more bucks than does right now, correct (1:0.8) and you want the ratio to be more like 1:2. Assuming you don't have too many deer which you suggest is the case, does this not mean you need to simply shoot some of those bucks you're seeing?

A 4.5, a 3.5, two 2.5's and a bunch of 1.5's on one night...I haven't seen that many bucks in the past 3 years combined. Yours is a good problem to have!

 

[bbcoach]

Sounds to me like you don't have a problem at all. You only have a snap shot with this 1 sighting but I wouldn't worry one bit. You have bucks of all ages which is Wonderful. Your current buck to doe ratio seems to be perfect. Mother nature will take care of the rest for you in the next few years. My suggestion is to use your trail cams this summer and fall and target your 4.5 plus deer for the upcoming deer season. Take a doe, if you need some meat, and let mother nature do the rest.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Dont do anything!! Even if your observations are accurate and you shoot one buck next year your numbers will change a fair amount.

 

[Tree Spud]

This is the problem with looking at your property as a self contained ecosystem with no outside influences, it is not.

Late season bucks are very different behavior wise than early season bucks. They are exhausted & worn down from the rut, are not being pushed by the rut to move outside of their home range, have been stepped on by hunters for 3-4 months, food sources have changed, and they tend to go nocturnal.

If you sat out a 3rd day, and saw 10 mature bucks you'd be excited correct? If you saw no deer you would be depressed ... correct?

Observations from the stand are worse way to estimate deer population or buck:doe ratios. Relax and start preparing for next year ...

 

[Bill]

I agree a sit or two doesn't tell you much. Broken antlers might be a "hint". But just a hint. For a while it was hard to find a buck that wasn't busted up around our place. The neighbors walked on the does. Like 30 a year. Back then we bought the whole kill all the does you can theory. Since we laid off the girls we still get broken racks but not nearly as many.

It a personal thing but I'm not a big 1to 1 ratio guy. The more does the better IMO as long as the habitat can support it. I'd like to have Mr Big deciding which hot doe he wants at my place rather than deciding which direction to head looking for one. I've never gotten to that point but one can dream....

 

[kl9]

Agree with Bill. More does means more deer means more bucks. If you're habitat can support it, F the 1:1 ratio.

 

[yoderjac]

The deer seasons have basically concluded here in NE except for antlerless season which will run through Jan. 15. My area has a high deer density.

In my last two sits of the year(Dec. 30, 31) I had the perfect conditions to get deer on their feet and see what was out there. The temps were below zero, moderate to light winds, and 5" of snow. To say I was pumped was an understatement. This area of the farm had only been hunted once all year and only 5 other days since Sept 1st had the farm been hunted at all. Only two of those had occurred in the past 6 weeks. The path to the stand was very low impact in and out and the stand overlooked 3 acres of ag beans that would yield well over 40 bushel an acre according to my farmer friend and my dad.

One of the bucks that came out was I'm fairly certain 4.5(missing his left side or he would have taken a bullet) A 3.5 came out based on my history with him, and then 3 2.5's came out, and the balance were 1.5.

In total 39% of the deer that fed in the field were antlered and the rest were antlerless. Of the antlerless, fawns made up the majority. I was quite surprised at the ratio represented by adult bucks and adult does. It came out to be basically 1 buck to .8 adult doe during those two hunts. I only counted what was in the field at one time and didn't count anything after deer started leaving nor when more entered. They left and came from the same area so I couldn't be sure they were new or ones that had already been counted.

It was good to see so many deer but it seems my buck to doe ratio is way out of wack. This year I had the most bucks I've ever had with busted up racks, some missing one side or all the tines on a beam. I feel I'm in a quandary as I believe the deer numbers are in sync with the habitat and if I don't take some deer I will have more mouths than I want/need to be able to keep my habitat healthy and sustainable long term.

Any ideas or comments to help me figure out what to do to get my buck to doe ratio closer to 1 to 2.+

Thanks

First, I'd figure out if you really have a problem. Human observation data is probably the least reliable to establish ratios. I'd consider conducting a well timed camera survey to see if there really is an issue before taking corrective action.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[willy]

Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.

Some more to add to the above info. I didn't add it in the first part as it would have made it a long read(I can get a bit detailed) and most people don't want to read that much, no offense meant but that is the way it is.

Natty, you are right it is a good problem to have so many deer on my property but my concerns have to do with the ratio. I do a survey of sorts using my mineral licks and cams on them year round. To me this is a good way to do a survey. I am open to other ways if have one that you'd like to share. I also place a pile of deer feed after season in a secluded spot and put a couple cameras on it to see what comes to it that perhaps doesn't come to the beans. I put 2 cams in the bean plot after season as well. So post season I will get another batch of info to look at.

If it were a snap shot sighting then I wouldn't put to much into this 2 day observation. I run 6 year round cams and 7 seasonal, sometimes more(from August through March.) on this 80 acre farm. The year round cams are checked once every 5-6 weeks, and the others are checked after Thanksgiving which is after our rifle season but before muzzle opens. The next time I will check is after Jan. 15 when the antlerless season closes. I have pulled a card if I was going by a cam on the way to a stand but that doesn't happen much as I keep off of the farm except when conditions are just right to hunt or its opening day of rifle season.

From my card pulls this summer and after Thanksgiving I had the distinct impression that antlerless numbers were down from last year but buck numbers were slightly up. The card pulls after Thanksgiving also showed the most influx of bucks onto this property in Sept and Oct as there had ever been since we have owned it(just a shade over 10 years). I questioned why there were so many more new bucks and 3.5 and older most were. I went through the previous year's buck inventory and couldn't connect any of them to that year. Incidentally, all the bucks that came to the plot mentioned in first post were bucks I have on camera with 2 missing that were on the Thanksgiving pull this year. The only other buck that was at least 4 is dead I'm sure based on the arrow wound he had and where the neighboring outfitter said a client of his had hit him. Never got a pic of him after Nov. 10 and he looked half dead going into my sanctuary. In years past it seems the walking wounded were found dead on our property or stayed on our property to heal up with their needs easy to be met and minimal intrusion by humans.

In the year past, whenever this type of weather came, bucks of all ages and antlerless came to the corn or bean plots with the most always showing to the bean plots. My numbers have even been higher than what I witnessed this year. The most was over 72 at one time as I quit counting because it was getting to the last half hour and I needed to concentrate on watching the whole field to see if a buck I was after would show.(he didn't but found out he was already dead later)

Tree, I try to look at this with the big picture in mind. I know what my small property has compared to the surrounding mile in all directions has. It is either ag fields, brome grass pasture or timber that the cattle have grazed/tromped to the ground. The browse is limited on the surrounding properties as is the water. You are correct the old bucks may be waiting until nightfall before moving so hopefully the cams will have them on them when I pull in a couple weeks.

I am concerned that the habitat in the surrounding mile is starting to degrade so much that herd health is deteriorating and partly to blame for lower antlerless numbers. The 3/4 of the surrounding land is hunted heavily during the antlerless season. Its target practice fun and client get to shoot a deer on the lease side and the other part is owned by a landowner that believes the only good deer is a dead deer. He has received depredation tags in years past but not the last few since ehd went through in '12 however anybody who asks to kill does he lets on.

S.T. I hope the half rack holds his other side until antlerless is over as that will his downfall if he goes of our property which I have no illusions he won't, I would say its a sure bet.

See it got long didn't it.:)

 

[willy]

Bill, your post came as I was typing. I want a higher doe to buck ratio. At least a 1 buck to 2 doe. I would like it closer to 3 if possible. Right now it is less than one adult doe per buck based on the info I have at my disposal. There was never any question it wasn't over the 1 to 2 ratio until this summer and then with the recon since August it sure seems that way, especially with what I saw with my own eyes. I will use the surveys mentioned above to see if my thoughts are wrong and I hope I am.

 

[Peplin Creek]

Yeah... with all the antlerless pressure and a few years removed from ehd. This probably is the result. Honestly not a bad problem to have and I can tell from your posts your serious about habitat and carrying capacity. Until you start witnessing negative effects on your property with extreme browser pressure, starvation, etc... I wouldn’t worry too much about. Enjoy the good sits and card pulls. Sound like you have a situation that a lot of us would do anything to have.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

Willy, it sounds like you have a good handle on what's going on on and around your property. Again, simple human observation is so fraught with bias and error that it's hard to make sound management decisions based on that alone. On the other hand, I also know that serious hunters, land owners, and outdoorsman who spend many, many hours afield often know and understand more about what's going on than the biologists sitting behind a computer screen crunching numbers.

Like yoderjac mentioned, maybe it's time for a well timed and well conducted camera survey to see of the data corroborates your observations before and you make any management decisions...the precautionary principle...look before you leap.

Here's a link to the Jacobson Method...a little weighty. But if you're into it, some good stuff based on sound scientific study and revealing as to the level of accuracy and biases of camera survey methods.

http://www.seafwa.org/20Moore_et_al_127-132.pdf

I reread your original post and didn't see it, but how much land are we talking here? That's essential knowledge.

 

[willy]

Natty, a whopping 80 acres but its mine, free and clear, and a blessing to be able to be a steward to it.

 

[Natty Bumppo]

Natty, a whopping 80 acres but its mine, free and clear, and a blessing to be able to be a steward to it.

That's awesome man! I hear you. I'm only on 30....it's contiguous with another 120 that my MIL owns. All my extensive habitat work occurs on the 30...food plots, TSI, releasing of old apples, etc. I also do some small scale stuff on the other 120...just no food plots. I think you and I are in the same boat with our small properties...it's really hard (maybe impossible) to have any real influence on the herd in your area. And with neighbors like yours whacking the does I'm sure it's frustrating for you as a steward of the land.

 

[willy]

You are correct, we probably are pissing into the wind on our small properties but I know it does help the overall herd health of the deer in the immediate area of our farm. I do know the number of deer that call our place home has greatly increased in the 10 years we have owned it. I really enjoy that aspect with the wildlife watching as the year goes by.

The doe slaughter is frustrating but usually we let a couple does be taken by guests in the antlerless season so I can't be too critical but the hammering of the "huge" 2.5 year olds by the outfitter's clients from the southern states and east coast states really is the kick in the nuts. They just rave about the size of "these deer" up here.

It seems as has been said above I really don't have anything I can do to help the situation except further investigate and see what things look like next year. But if the buck to doe ratio is really out of whack meaning more bucks than doe then I guess I better do some buck shooting regardless of age.

Thank you all for your comments and ideas. Keep them coming if you have anymore.