Rootstock/Planting Questions

[H20fwler]

I know that a lot of benefits can be had from the different types of rootstock. Like faster or slower fruit production, some DR, size of tree, tree life, wind resistance etcetera…
In my area with loamy clay and windy, M111 seems to do very good.

I like many have purchased trees in the past on rootstock that wasn’t necessarily my first or second choice to get the particular variety I wanted.

Question #1
If dwarfing rootstock is planted below the graft to achieve a larger tree what are the downsides of doing this?

Question #2
What is the best depth past the graft to plant the tree?

 

[yoderjac]

I don't have good answers to either question. I've always considered planting a tree with the graft just above the soil line and letting it fruit and then mounding soil around it covering the graft by a few inches to see what happens. Does it revert back to a vegetative state? Does it continue to produce? Does it eventually become a full size tree?

Just one more option. Plant your hard to get varieties normally. After the first year, take scions and graft them to the rootstock of your choice. M111 does well in my clay soils here. That is the primary rootstock used by the local orchard.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[b116757]

I plant the graft 2-3” below the soil you will lose any dwarfing or DR from the grafted rootstock. The tree may very well take a decade or more to fruit. You will however gain a full sized tree unless the cultivar has it’s own dwarfing characteristics. These trees should live to a very old age. At the house I have an established orchard so fast fruiting to me is of much less of a concern than someone just starting out with all new trees. I use either antonovka or I bury the graft for all newly established trees. Our northern brothers zone 2-3 should probably always bury the grafts for extreme cold protection. I lost several trees to winter graft failure in zone 3 in the spring. I established two different orchards while living in zone 3 one at my mothers place and another at my brothers place before I sold it to him 20 years ago and moved to zone 6. Last spring I started a new orchard at the farm planting somewhere around 20 new apple/pear trees I buried the graft on all but a couple of the trees the reason for this was the nursery grafted those trees very high above the root collar and I simply wasn’t interested in digging a hole that deep. If I was a new guy starting out above zone 3 I’d be very tempted to buy two of each verity I was interested in bury one graft and not the second one. You would have the best of both worlds with this arrangement one tree that is fast fruiting and another full sized long lived tree but it will take much longer to fruit. I have 20 or so more trees ordered for the new farm orchard to be planted this spring. I will bury the graft on all of them also, god willing I will see fruit from these trees but if not my children, grandchildren and perhaps my great grandchildren will still be reaping the rewards.

 

[b116757]

https://www.slngrow.com/pages/planting-guide#HowDeep

They suggest 1-2” I use 2-3”

 

[Mortenson]

What happens if you plant your graft around ground level or an inch above, then place 3" of crushed limestone around the base of the tree? Is it then considered buried enough to grow its own roots or will the clonal rootstock persist?

 

[b116757]

I’m no Botanist but I would guess if it’s a really large aggregate with no real soil it may not root but that’s just my guess no experience.

 

[yoderjac]

I’m no Botanist but I would guess if it’s a really large aggregate with no real soil it may not root but that’s just my guess no experience.

Perhaps the size matters...Ever heard of a Missouri gravel bed?

 

[H20fwler]

I plant the graft 2-3” below the soil you will lose any dwarfing or DR from the grafted rootstock. The tree may very well take a decade or more to fruit. You will however gain a full sized tree unless the cultivar has it’s own dwarfing characteristics. These trees should live to a very old age. At the house I have an established orchard so fast fruiting to me is of much less of a concern than someone just starting out with all new trees. I use either antonovka or I bury the graft for all newly established trees. Our northern brothers zone 2-3 should probably always bury the grafts for extreme cold protection. I lost several trees to winter graft failure in zone 3 in the spring. I established two different orchards while living in zone 3 one at my mothers place and another at my brothers place before I sold it to him 20 years ago and moved to zone 6. Last spring I started a new orchard at the farm planting somewhere around 20 new apple/pear trees I buried the graft on all but a couple of the trees the reason for this was the nursery grafted those trees very high above the root collar and I simply wasn’t interested in digging a hole that deep. If I was a new guy starting out above zone 3 I’d be very tempted to buy two of each verity I was interested in bury one graft and not the second one. You would have the best of both worlds with this arrangement one tree that is fast fruiting and another full sized long lived tree but it will take much longer to fruit. I have 20 or so more trees ordered for the new farm orchard to be planted this spring. I will bury the graft on all of them also, god willing I will see fruit from these trees but if not my children, grandchildren and perhaps my great grandchildren will still be reaping the rewards.

Thank you

I have over 100 fruit trees in the ground in two different orchards planted from eight years ago to last spring, many starting to fruit decent now.
I am putting a new orchard in this spring and to get the varieties I wanted have a few coming on dwarfing M7…most are on M111 a few on P18.
I’m wanting bigger trees and can wait for them to start fruiting later.
Ordered four of the all white Ghost apple that I have been wanting, going to plant one normal and the other 3” above graft like you described. Also a few different red fleshed on M7 that I will plant deeper.

 

[H20fwler]

I don't have good answers to either question. I've always considered planting a tree with the graft just above the soil line and letting it fruit and then mounding soil around it covering the graft by a few inches to see what happens. Does it revert back to a vegetative state? Does it continue to produce? Does it eventually become a full size tree?

Just one more option. Plant your hard to get varieties normally. After the first year, take scions and graft them to the rootstock of your choice. M111 does well in my clay soils here. That is the primary rootstock used by the local orchard.

Thanks,

Jack

Yep, in the past I planted a couple on dwarfing rootstock because it was all I could get then did like you suggested, took scions off them the next year and grafted to M111.

 

[b116757]

Perhaps the size matters...Ever heard of a Missouri gravel bed?

I am not familiar this I’ll have to exercise my Google fu and see what it’s all about.

 

[sandbur]

Thank you

I have over 100 fruit trees in the ground in two different orchards planted from eight years ago to last spring, many starting to fruit decent now.
I am putting a new orchard in this spring and to get the varieties I wanted have a few coming on dwarfing M7…most are on M111 a few on P18.
I’m wanting bigger trees and can wait for them to start fruiting later.
Ordered four of the all white Ghost apple that I have been wanting, going to plant one normal and the other 3” above graft like you described. Also a few different red fleshed on M7 that I will plant deeper.

Which red fleshed are you considering?


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[yoderjac]

I am not familiar this I’ll have to exercise my Google fu and see what it’s all about.

I don't know the answer to the question if stone is used whether rooting will occur in the stone, but a Missouri Gravel Bed illustrates how very dense root systems can be grown in stone when nutrients are made available. You may also be correct the the size of the stone may play a role.

 

[chickenlittle]

There is no straightforward answer on the effects. For any combination of rootstock and scion, there are are a lot of hormonal and environmental interactions that determine the impact of rootstock on the scion tree. Burying the graft union makes this more complex. The deeper you go, the less impact the rootstock should have and it likely depends on how much rooting you get from the scion but too deep you'll hurt the tree before the scion roots enough to sustain the tree.

I’m sure it matters how dwarfing the rootstock is - MM111, MM106, M7, M26, M9, and M27 should all give different size trees and onset of fruiting due at least in part to the amount of dwarfing each has but I don't know that tree size would rank the same way. Maybe the superdwarf M27 would give a larger tree than some of the less dwarfing ones with a buried graft.

For disease (fireblight, root rot), pest (wooly aphids), and other growing issues like suckers and burrknots, the benefit/drawback depends on which is better or worse, the rootstock or the scion. If you had a Geneva rootstock and buried the graft for a fireblight susceptible scion, you might have fireblight strike a root sucker and kill the tree. If the tree next to that one was a Liberty on M9, it is likely that any rootsuckers would be fireblight resistant Liberty and not the highly susceptible M9.

There is a whole bunch you just won't know unless you try it and pay attention for the next 10 years. I wouldn't bury the graft for any other purpose than trying to get a bigger tree from a dwafing rootstock.

 

[H20fwler]

Which red fleshed are you considering?


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I have multiples planted last spring of;

Firecracker
Calypso Redlove
Red Cascade
Odysso Redlove

Coming this spring multiples of;

Mountain Rose
Pink Pearl
Almata
Geneva
Redfield
Bruguiere

The redflesh are most definitely an addictive thing!

 

[Mortenson]

Which 1 is the most disease resistant?

 

[H20fwler]

Which 1 is the most disease resistant?

Sandbur would know better than I would...my guess would be the crabs.
I am planting most of them in the new orchard where we are building our house, there I will be able to baby them and spray for whatever they need.
In that orchard I am planting about any apple or pear tree I've ever wanted to try, should end up with around 50-60 fruit trees by the time I'm done. They will be about 50/50 for family/wildlife.

 

[sandbur]

Which 1 is the most disease resistant?

I have not had any significant disease in Almata, Firecracker, or Geneva Crab.

I have lots of red cedars.

I was looking at Jung’s Redlove, but I did not want a dwarf tree and decided to pass on it.

I am trying to cut back on plantings after carrying so much water during last summer’s drought.

I hope Almata survives. I hear a dry summer can lead to more death over the following winter.


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[sandbur]

I have not had any significant disease in Almata, Firecracker, or Geneva Crab.

I have lots of red cedars.

I was looking at Jung’s Redlove, but I did not want a dwarf tree and decided to pass on it.

I am trying to cut back on plantings after carrying so much water during last summer’s drought.

I hope Almata survives. I hear a dry summer can lead to more death over the following winter.


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Sorry about all of the ‘I’s’ in the above post. I was suffering from a migraine.


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[Bowsnbucks]

I don't know the answer to the question if stone is used whether rooting will occur in the stone, but a Missouri Gravel Bed illustrates how very dense root systems can be grown in stone when nutrients are made available. You may also be correct the the size of the stone may play a role.

I haven't seen any rooting in the fine crushed limestone chips we use around our fruit trees. It packs almost like concrete once it settles. Also - the way I plant our trees and use aluminum window screen around the trunk, there's a "stoneless gap" of about 3" around the very base of the trees. The screen keeps the stone from touching the tree trunks. I don't know if that's any help.

 

[Mortenson]

I haven't seen any rooting in the fine crushed limestone chips we use around our fruit trees. It packs almost like concrete once it settles. Also - the way I plant our trees and use aluminum window screen around the trunk, there's a "stoneless gap" of about 3" around the very base of the trees. The screen keeps the stone from touching the tree trunks. I don't know if that's any help.

That's a good point, and is the same case with how I do it also. The "stoneless gap" is there. And sorry to detract from the original posters questions, just that I know quite a few people toss gravel, stone or mulch around there trees.

The red flesh apples are neat. I definitely need to get one in my lineup. Thanks for the info.