Percentages?

Bowsnbucks

5 year old buck +
For food plotters who want to plant mixed plots - can anyone give good info on what percentages of each crop variety make a good mix .......... without 1 or 2 varieties smothering the others??

If any of us wanted to plant say - a mixed plot of red clover, rye grain, peas, and chicory - what percentage of each will make a good plot without losing a couple varieties to the dominance of the others?? And not just for that seed mix, but others as well. What about adding rye to turnips, radishes, and rape?? I don't know which things will out-compete others in a mixed plot, and I suspect other habitat guys don't either. If anyone on here can offer guidance - especially the farmers!!! - that would be appreciated.
 
I've found dominance is variable. A couple of weeks of dry weather and the species that's been hiding out of sight all of a sudden is showing itself. Get a mid summer rain and another pops up for a while. First frost brings out another one. They're there just waiting on favorable conditions to take up the slack. I'm big on diversity and reckless with mixing varieties.

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As a general rule, I plant 1/3 to 1/4 per acre of each variety when i do combined seeds.

I don't reduce WR amount as i plant that in early september at 100 lbs/acre.
 
To further complicate matters,

Different soil types in different ecoregions will favor some species over others

Perhaps local co ops/farmers could provide guidance

hopefully, Farmer Dan will weigh in

bill
 
I would like to weigh in on another concept besides the diversity post I had above. We have a seed bank because not every seed germinates just because it hits the soil. Many wait until things are favorable. So, just because you plant at the wrong percentages doesn't mean it'll turn out bad. And just to be clear, rates and percentages are very different when using concepts like I'm presenting.

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Check out SmartMix through Green Cover Seed. It’s a free registration to use. Enter some background info about the land, and select what species you’re looking to grow. It spits out recommended amounts of everything in the mix. I’ve used it a couple years now and no complaints. You can purchase from them, but I still end up getting my seed locally.
 
This sounds like a great opportunity to write a proposal to get a couple hundred-thousand dollars of grant money to study the question! I think all you can do is consider the most important factors that determine success. How do you define success here? Woo hoo! Another hundred-thousand-dollars of research money to define the problem and present some ideas. Even then, at the end of the day we just say ah, fulsh it, and throw something together hoping for the best.

For what a free thought is worth...
I'd start by understandings the limitations of the area to be planted. There's only so much water and plant food and space available. Then I guess I'd have me a list of the seeds I might consider, the number of seeds (on average) in a pound, and the recommended number of pounds (or, ideally, the number of plants) per acre if planted as a monoculture (a solid planting). If you really want to get down in it, consider the germination rate for each type of plant and you can't do that without knowing what affects germination rates (for each type of plant).

I think solid seeding rates give an idea of the amount of area each type of plant needs. Isn't that the challenge? Not too much, not too little, but just right!

Think about corn. We want something between 22,000 - 28,000 corn stalks per acres (the number keeps drifting around). Soybeans? I don't know. Seems like everyone has a different idea. For kicks and giggles make it 140,000 plants per acre. Rye grain - let's assume (you know what they say about assumptions?) a solid seeding of rye requires 75 lbs of seed germinating at some percentage. To further add to the ass umption let's say there are 18,000 seeds in a pound. So, in a solid seeding we are looking for 1,350,000 plants per acres.

See where this is going? If you have five different plant species you want to throw down in a fixed space and, to make it simple, if you want 20% of your fixed area to contain each of the species your going to need to do some math to figure out the seeding rate so each plant has the potential to get the space it needs.

Or, do you want to fix (keep constant) the number of plants in equal proportions and vary the area planted?

And understand, I'm talking about mixing a bunch of seed together and broadcasting or drilling it all together. How does that affect plant spacing? I dunno. I can't even begin to thank about that dilemma. And then there are the different seasonal requirement, another variable to think about.

Eyes rolling back in you head yet? I don't know about you, but me? On a really good day I might be able to handle three variable at once. Here we have how many? I lost count.

It's not hard math. It's not hard to conceive, but you have to think about what it is you want and I don't know about you but even at my age I'm still not sure.

To end - so, no we don't know the answer - not really.
 
Example: mix a 4 seed varieties. You want them to cover 10%, 20% , 30%, and 40% of your plot.

Weight of seed A = Seed rate per acre)x(.10)x(total acreage of plot)

Weight of seed B = Seed rate per acre)x(.20)x(total acreage of plot)

Weight of seed C = Seed rate per acre)x(.30)x(total acreage of plot)

Weight of seed D = Seed rate per acre)x(.40)x(total acreage of plot)

This is a good starting place. Then you can adjust from there.

Generally mixes with rye oats and clover you can round up and seed heavier without negative impacts. Brassicas do not round up because they will crowd out and compete each other, better to seed lighter and oversees with something else later.

This has worked for me for similar plant types, ie a mix of all clover or a mix of all brassicas. When mixing different types of seed (clovers and brassicas and rye together) it can get more complicated. Just play with it and adjust later trials to what works for you
 
Green Cover Seed has a smartmix calculator that will do the math for you. Choose your varieties and it'll give you the poundages.
 
This sounds like a great opportunity to write a proposal to get a couple hundred-thousand dollars of grant money to study the question! I think all you can do is consider the most important factors that determine success. How do you define success here? Woo hoo! Another hundred-thousand-dollars of research money to define the problem and present some ideas. Even then, at the end of the day we just say ah, fulsh it, and throw something together hoping for the best.

For what a free thought is worth...
I'd start by understandings the limitations of the area to be planted. There's only so much water and plant food and space available. Then I guess I'd have me a list of the seeds I might consider, the number of seeds (on average) in a pound, and the recommended number of pounds (or, ideally, the number of plants) per acre if planted as a monoculture (a solid planting). If you really want to get down in it, consider the germination rate for each type of plant and you can't do that without knowing what affects germination rates (for each type of plant).

I think solid seeding rates give an idea of the amount of area each type of plant needs. Isn't that the challenge? Not too much, not too little, but just right!

Think about corn. We want something between 22,000 - 28,000 corn stalks per acres (the number keeps drifting around). Soybeans? I don't know. Seems like everyone has a different idea. For kicks and giggles make it 140,000 plants per acre. Rye grain - let's assume (you know what they say about assumptions?) a solid seeding of rye requires 75 lbs of seed germinating at some percentage. To further add to the ass umption let's say there are 18,000 seeds in a pound. So, in a solid seeding we are looking for 1,350,000 plants per acres.

See where this is going? If you have five different plant species you want to throw down in a fixed space and, to make it simple, if you want 20% of your fixed area to contain each of the species your going to need to do some math to figure out the seeding rate so each plant has the potential to get the space it needs.

Or, do you want to fix (keep constant) the number of plants in equal proportions and vary the area planted?

And understand, I'm talking about mixing a bunch of seed together and broadcasting or drilling it all together. How does that affect plant spacing? I dunno. I can't even begin to thank about that dilemma. And then there are the different seasonal requirement, another variable to think about.

Eyes rolling back in you head yet? I don't know about you, but me? On a really good day I might be able to handle three variable at once. Here we have how many? I lost count.

It's not hard math. It's not hard to conceive, but you have to think about what it is you want and I don't know about you but even at my age I'm still not sure.

To end - so, no we don't know the answer - not really.
Waaaaaaay to much ciphering

.....even for Jethro Bodine

bill
 
Follow the LickCreek posts.
 
For food plotters who want to plant mixed plots - can anyone give good info on what percentages of each crop variety make a good mix .......... without 1 or 2 varieties smothering the others??

If any of us wanted to plant say - a mixed plot of red clover, rye grain, peas, and chicory - what percentage of each will make a good plot without losing a couple varieties to the dominance of the others?? And not just for that seed mix, but others as well. What about adding rye to turnips, radishes, and rape?? I don't know which things will out-compete others in a mixed plot, and I suspect other habitat guys don't either. If anyone on here can offer guidance - especially the farmers!!! - that would be appreciated.

There are some broad guidelines like keeping the brassica component of a mix under 2 lbs/ac and in most mixes keeping buckwheat under 10 lbs. But beyond the broad strokes, there are a lot of variables. I've planted an equal mix of buckwheat and sunn hemp for my summer annuals for the last few years. Some years, the buckwheat completely dominates with scattered sunn hemp and other years sunn hemp has dominated with scattered buckwheat. Why? I think some years the soil temp, rain, and other weather factors favored one over the other. There is also a browse factor here. My deer never seem to get ahead of buckwheat, but if sunn hemp is not established soon after does drop fawns, they will hit it hard at my place, again favoring the buckwheat.

My summer mix has been 15-20 lbs/ac of sunn hemp and buckwheat lately. My fall mix has been brassica (2 lbs/ac for PTT or 3 lbs/ac for GHR) with Crimson Clover at 10 lbs/ac, and WR at 80-100 lbs/ac. This mix has worked well for me. Not saying these proportions or rates are good anywhere else.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Jack -

Is sun hemp a deer FOOD - or cover for fawning / green manure / N-fixer? No experience with sun hemp.
 
Jack -

Is sun hemp a deer FOOD - or cover for fawning / green manure / N-fixer? No experience with sun hemp.

Yes, sunn hemp is a good summer deer food here. Keep in mind that I'm further south and lower in elevation than you, so summer is a bit more of a stress period than winter most years. I plant for both here. I used to plant RR forage beans with a light mix of corn for vertical cover. I'd then overseed the beans with my fall mix when I used ag beans. If I used forage beans which are indeterminate, I'd bushhog strips through them and then seed that. Deer don't use my bean pods most winters, but the forage gets heavy use during the summer.

Between browse pressure and weed competition, it was hard to get beans to establish without using gly to control weeds and planting enough acreage to stay ahead of deer. The repeated use of gly concerned me but did not present a problem until we had a marestail outbreak in our thinned and burned pines which got into the fields. Gly made the problem much worse. That is when I needed find an alternative for summer.

I ended up with the sunn hemp and buckwheat mix. It took a while for deer to learn sunn hemp was a good food but they love it now. Nutrition is in the ball park with soybeans. Both beans and sunn hemp like warm soil for germination. That lets me delay my spring plant and the crimson clover from the previous fall becomes the spring food source. Both germinate and canopy quickly and compete well with weeds, so no post-planting herbicide is needed.

If you are far enough north and/or high enough in elevation that summer is not a stress period, they may not be a great fit. By the way, it is a legume that does fix quite a bit of N into the soil.

If you search some of my posts you find pics of both the "designer beans" and sunn hemp.

Thanks,

Jack
 
When I grow turnips with a seeding rate of five pounds per acre, they shade out pretty much everything else. When the frost goes out the following spring, I typically see areas of volunteer alsike clover greening up in the field that had been planted in turnips. It is early enough in the spring that I think it must have established itself the previous fall. So, I suppose alsike and turnips could work. I haven't tried it on purpose though.
 
Follow the LickCreek posts.

This. Great place to start for seeding rates.

Keep in mind that most forage crops (cereal blends, clovers, etc) don't really care about seeding rate unless you're very low. They will fill the space they have. Grain or bulb (brassica) producing plants however are more susceptible to spacing requirements and will underproduce if seeded too heavily. The timing of planting is also a large influencer as well.

FWIW - I've toyed around with the Greencover Smartmix calculator also. Their rates are not far off.. Here are the Smartmix rates for the forages I selected:

1640107373298.png

Here is what I actually planted below. Note - The reduction of rye could make up for the increase in Radish rate Smartmix used.

- Cereal Rye (60# / ac)
- Bob Oats (30# / ac)
- AWP (30# / ac)
- Radish (2.5# / ac)

Here is the result, 7 weeks after planting.

2021-10-23 DT 5.jpg

There are still many other factors such as soil fertility, planting method (disc only, disc/pack, throw and mow, drill, etc...) and timing that all affect rates used. Smartmix / Dbltree options are just good starting points.

Good luck!
 
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