Older deer jawbone example

[BOC]

j-bird - Well I am trying to find a way to get my wife to approve sending them off to deerage.com (17 jaw bones X $25 = small chance I'll get my wish!) Got any suggestions????:)

I would send just a couple, but I know better. I can't find out the age of one or two and not the rest of them. For now I am going to put a few dollars away every paycheck and get it done. Once done, I will let you know the results and reflect from that standpoint. Still $500 is going to be a tough pill to swallow!

I really think regardless of the results I have to be content and happy with what we have been able to accomplish given what we have to work with. At the end of the day, I'll admit, I enjoy the harvest of whitetail deer too much and know I cannot pass a 3.5 year old given the opportunity. They just get me too excited and that's what it's all about.

Furthermore, in the interest of being honest, I was really hoping I would make a post like this and have guys say, "that's great man, that exactly what we're doing and that's the best you can expect!" Deep down inside, I knew the truth - if you want to shoot a 4.5+, roll the dice, let the 3.5 year old walk, and hope you have an opportunity once every 5-10 years. Call me crazy, but it has almost become a pride thing. With everything I do, I always strive to be the best that I can be (let me clarify, not the best hunter in the woods but do the best job I personally can given my god-given ability), and it's no different with deer hunting. Some might say that's great, but I think it can be taken too far and almost become a fault. Unfortunately, with deer hunting I equate the best with most mature. I need to get over that, fast! Hopefully, you can relate in some way. I feel like I just spilled my heart out - these whitetail deer have a way bringing things out of me!

 

[j-bird]

I get where you are coming from.

Before you spend the money - think about this......Does is REALLY matter how old the buck is? I thought about this long and hard - part of my self-reflecting. To me -other than the curiosity - it makes no difference. I'm a pig - I use antler size and determine if I want him or not. It's that simpe. I have never, and may never, use age alone to dertermine if I pull the trigger or not. So if that is the case - who cares how old he is. Fact is he is dead and isn't going to get older. The ONLY way I would send teeth in would be to verify the age ranges in efforts to developing your own aging tool and I don't think you need all 17 done to accomplish that. Also break it up into more managable pieces - Rome wasn't built in a day. @ $25 each - send in 4 at a time when you have a little extra and work your way thru.

As far as adjusting the managemet plan - again I thought about this a long time aswell. I figure I have 2 options. One option is to embrace what I have accomplished and take pride in what I have done and enjoy it. The other option is to go "all-in" and potentially get that head on my wall and accept the consequences to do that. My fear is tha by going "all-in" is that I may win and loose at the same time. Yes I may reach that "next level", but I stand to loose alot in return - mainly the fun of the hunt. I stand to bring on additional frustration and create tension along the way. I stand to become the hunter that I swore I would never become. To me that price is too high to pay. I will take a wall of 3 & 4 year olds all day long over a few 5 year olds.

I have also seen that I tend to get sucked into management principles that simply do not apply to me. Managing deer based on methods used by larg properties, with greater reasources or even captive deer simply do not apply or at the very least have a much lesser degree of significance in a small property with true free range deer. Running myson's little league team as if it was a major league team is simply stupid and will only be an exercise in frustration.

I'm never going to have a situation where those deer on my wall make me any money. However I run a significant risk of those deer on my wall costing me much more than money can buy - especially if I loose sight of what is important. I will continue to try to make improvements to my habitat and continue to spread the message of passing on the younger bucks and ample doe harvest when/where needed. The biggest thing is to continue to enjoy hunting and take what comes my way. Remember this is a HOBBY!!!!!

Not sure if my observations and reflections align with your thoughts, but this thread has really made me reflect and I think sometimes we all need to take a step back. We can sometimes get so focused and head down on something that we become oblivious to the obvious - this thread has caused me to pause and look up and take a better inventory of where I was at and regain some perspective.

Good luck to you and you efforts.

 

[dipper]

With a little education and practice it's pretty easy to tell the difference between a 3 to a 5, or a 2 from a 4 or a 2 from a 3 for that matter. Old sow does are a great way to start a jaw collection. If you got the $ and want it officially aged go for it, I'm sure this company appreciates your business. I'm very confident aging with my jaw collection, and I can save the $25 for an apple tree or something. Now Ive skinned and aged around 100 trophy bucks this fall, but that extensive experience isn't necessary.

 

[BOC]

"100 trophey bucks THIS fall" - Thought you guys don't shoot any "trophy bucks" in Wisconsin Dipper???????? At least that's how you guys make it sound in the other thread that's going:)

In all seriousness Dipper, with your confidence can you make anything from the pictures I attached then?

 

[j-bird]

:D Sand-baggers! Mis-leading us hoosiers (we ain't all like Woody from Cheers). I bet there IS a QDMA chapter in Pequot Lakes, MN!!!!!! (that'll get Foggy fired up!)

Don't worry - no nice deer in IN either!!!!!! Oh - and deer don't like corn OR soybeans - it's all been a lie!!!!

That's why nobody chimed in BOC - they all got their place to the "next level" - don't want to share how they did it. You think you know people......


Obviously just having some fun !!!!!

 

[dipper]

"100 trophey bucks THIS fall" - Thought you guys don't shoot any "trophy bucks" in Wisconsin Dipper???????? At least that's how you guys make it sound in the other thread that's going:)

In all seriousness Dipper, with your confidence can you make anything from the pictures I attached then?

Trophy is in the eye of the beholder. I would not shoot many of the bucks, which people think are trophies. I don't keep any records when I'm skinning but 80% of the wi bucks are 2.5 years old. I did about 20 high fence bucks up to 290". Most of the real toads I see come from out of state. My area has many hard core hunters who have abandoned their home area for greenier pastures.
having the jaw key is really needed. The teeth wear is so obvious when you hold them right up next to each other. I also do all my habitat talking on my phone, so looking at a a screen the size of my palm wouldn't be accurate either. I could give you a pretty good estimate, but I couldn't give you the certainty if I had the jaw in my hand.

 

[BOC]

10-4 Dipper....I understand. And you're right, trophy is in the eye of the beholder!

 

[dipper]

Your pics are way to small for me to see. Post larger pics and I might have a better idea

 

[BOC]

Funny you should say that-my darn computer kept telling me my file was too big and I needed to resize the picture. So.....those pictures are what I came up with. I was pretty proud I got that far! I have a hard time with this technology stuff sometimes.

 

[kabic]

Your pics are way to small for me to see. Post larger pics and I might have a better idea

Too small even after you clicked on them? They are thumbnails...

 

[dipper]

179 might be the only 3.5, the rest are older. 179 does not appear to be a 2.5. From the side. A 2.5 has sharp, V tips. You also need a view from the top. You guys both have some old deer. I only see those jaws in does. Speaking of which, is going to be showing up in the next 20 minutes.

 

[BOC]

Well guys you were all kind enough to provide feedback so I thought I would revisit the post now that I have the results. I am very pleased with the outcome and it confirms some things I have been feeling about my personal whitetail deer management efforts.

17 total deer were sent off for cementum-annuli analysis:

9 deer = 4.5 yr old
6 deer = 3.5 yr old
2 deer = 2.5 yr old

The biggest takeaway for me is with over 12 years of trail camera monitoring and typically harvesting the biggest bucks we have on camera - we have yet to shoot a deer older than 4.5 yr old. I suspected there just wasn't enough cover in my part of north-central Indiana for a buck to hide and get that old. These results proved my suspicion. Now you might think, "well let those 4.5 year old deer walk on your property and you might just get your 5 year old." Unfortunately, I just don't see myself doing that on my 100 acres. I know I won't be able to keep them from wandering off this 100 acres no matter how much habitat work I do.

One other note. None of these 17 deer had over 160" of total antler. Several have grossed in the 150's but none over that (biggest field dressing 217lbs). Combined with the above information I now have a clear understanding of what my expectations should be.

PS one more takeaway - the deer in my area tend to cementum-annuli age 1 year older than what they age by looking at tooth wear.

Hope you find this information of some value.

 

[dipper]

Cool stuff. Do u still have your jaw bones after having them aged this way? Are the bones you have in each age group consistent? I bet they are. Now you have a lock solid aging key yourself. Like I said earlier in your thread, it isn't hard to distinguish between the 2-4s. After 5 it gets gray, but you haven't even shot one that old. so anything older than 4 can be lumped into one management category anyway.
Thanks for sharing

 

[BOC]

Dipper to answer your questions: yes and yes. They sent the jawbones back and their were no surprises. Each age group is pretty darn consistent from rack size to tooth wear to field dress weight. Really interesting stuff. Seems like a 4.5 in my area will average 190-210 field dressed and a 3.5 will be around the 180's.