No-Till over stumps?

356

5 year old buck +
I am a new member who is looking forward to learning much. Last year I cleared 8 acres of old cropland that was overgrown with red cedars. The stumps were cut at "ground level." I am doing a late winter burn, hitting the early growth with Glyphosate, then planting with a nesting and pollinator blend under a USDA contract. The contract allows either broadcast or drilling of the seed. I am considering renting a small box drill (have to go 80 miles to pick it up) or purchasing a no-till drill (such as a SAYA) as the contract requires annual reseeding for 5 years and I am hoping to use this time to build up the soil. While I have the drill, I'll do 3 or 4 acres of food plots

1) Will the drill work over these ground level stumps? Most are 10"-24".
2) How effective are no-till drills with seed blends. The groups nesting blend is Yarrow, Common Milkweed, White Wild Indigo, Blue Wild Indigo, Partridge Pea, Lanceleaf Coreopsis, Plains Coreopsis, White Prairie Clover, Purple Prairie Clover, Pale-purple Coneflower, Rattlesnake Master, Narrowleaf gumweed, Ashy Sunflower, Oxeye Sunflower, Roundheaded Bushclover, Prairie Blazing Star,, Seedbox, Wild Bergamot, Common evening primrose, Rigid Goldenrod, Wild Quinine, Foxglove Beardtongue, Slender Mountain Mint, Hairy Mountain Mint, Gray-headed Coneflower, Black-eyed Susan, Sweet Coneflower, Gray Goldenrod, Blue Vervain. The pollinator mix is similar.
 
I have a neighbor who did that last year. He rented a Great Plains no-till drill from the local ASCS office. He had no problems drilling over ground level stumps. I wouldn't want to own that drill.
 
Bummer they were cut so close to the ground. If left higher, could have removed quite a few with a FEL on a tractor alone..
 
Lots of different opinions on drilling seeds into stumpy land. I think you might want to rent for a season to learn on someone others equipment. I used a 3point stump grinder to remove about 4000 stumps from my land over several years....and had a forestery mulcher go over some land I after I had it logged about 5 hears ago.....before I further cleaned up that debris again with my stump grinder and lots of hand work.

I did allot of tillage in the past......and have since become committed to no-till and drilling my plots (10 acres) in the years to come. Big reason for no till (besides all the environmental and fertility gains) is the time to do all the work.....and major pigweed problems that were/are now present (likely due to my old tillage ways). My current plan is to "crowd out" the weeds and any bare ground for those weed to emerge and stop all row crop activity.....and get away from a monoculture type planting. Sounds like your going this way too. Good.

EDIT: When I logged off most of my red pine, I had the logger shear the stumps as close to the ground as possible...which he did a nice job. There is no-way that I would pull a SAYA drill over the freshly logged ground - without doing some damage to the equipment - IMO.

Fast forward to last fall season.....and I bought a Tar River Saya 505 to drill into all of the ten acres available to plant. Some of that more recent land has a few stumps (all are at....or under ground level) and I have some slight damage to the rolling basket on the back of that Saya drill. <----this due to rocks or stumps that have snagged the basket (I never felt anything or saw anything). Big thing in stumpy or rocky ground is to slow down so you do not needlessly cause damage to your drill. I set my cruise at 3 MPH in my best land......and "felt" my way thru the more stumpy land or some areas where I have rocks.

I am uncertain as to the longevity of that rolling basket employed on the SAYA drills when used in rough ground.....but I think it will pay a price. That "basket" serves to help close the trenches and smooth any dirt clods......and drives the seed cups.....so it is vital that you keep it in good working condition. To a great extent it also controls the depth of the openers and overall operation of the drill. I think this could be an issue in stumpy or rocky ground with the SAYA.......and I also wonder about "wrapping" that basket when planting into dense stands of rye or grains. For sure you will want to plant green into a rye crop....or at least go with the "lay" of newly flattened rye to prevent wrapping.

Despite my reasonable care when planting with the SAYA I was able to bend those bars a bit on the O.D. of the basket. Those "bars" are actually hollow steel tubes that are welded to several steel wheels, which in turn, form the rolling basket. Evidently I hit a rock or stump or two....as a few are slightly bent now. No big damage or failure of any type and the drill operates just fine....but it got me to wondering if the SAYA is a good long-term product for my land. I think it will do just fine in previously tilled land such as a farmer may have. To me the jury is out.

Frankly....this is my reason for wanting to upgrade from the SAYA and into a more durable solution as found at the back of the drill. I think the coulters and openers as found on the Saya and the seed metering methods are quiet good. Not saying it's not up to the task....but in rough ground you could make allot of issues over time with that rolling basket - IMO - especially if you operate at high speeds in rough or stumpy ground (and maybe ? if you don't?). Also, there could be a new solution for that rolling basket in the time to come? Dunno. Just speculating.

Sorry for my ramble here.....but I feel it's good info to know.
 
Last edited:
Good advice, so far. I will plan on renting the drill this year.
 
I think wood has broken more disk blades on me then rocks. The disks “stick” to wood.
I’d think drill coulters might be the same.
 
356, do you have a pheasants forever chapter nearby? They rent drills out for putting in crp. If your a member its a discounted price, if not and you want to use their drill, it is a no brainer to join as the price is a lot cheaper and its a good organization to spend money with. They rent their drills in the counties I have crp for 12 bucks an acre.

The drills that the pheasants forever chapters have that I use are set up for different type seed mixes. They have different hoppers that work with fluffy and hard seeds. I've mixed kitty litter with fluffy seed in the fluffy seed hopper and it works much better that way than without the litter.

I have used their drills for every planting and the last two were in ground exactly as you describe. They had been let go and cedars over took them. Never had a problem with the drill.
 
356, do you have a pheasants forever chapter nearby? They rent drills out for putting in crp. If your a member its a discounted price, if not and you want to use their drill, it is a no brainer to join as the price is a lot cheaper and its a good organization to spend money with. They rent their drills in the counties I have crp for 12 bucks an acre.

The drills that the pheasants forever chapters have that I use are set up for different type seed mixes. They have different hoppers that work with fluffy and hard seeds. I've mixed kitty litter with fluffy seed in the fluffy seed hopper and it works much better that way than without the litter.

I have used their drills for every planting and the last two were in ground exactly as you describe. They had been let go and cedars over took them. Never had a problem with the drill.
There is a chapter in our area. I’ll check them out. Thank you.
 
It saddens me to hear advice offered and advice taken about renting a drill to avoid damaging owned equipment. All you do is force the damage cost to others. Others may include the next habitat forum user. How many times has one of us complained about the condition of a rented drill or diagnosed a poor seed distribution after planting with a rented drill? IF any repair/maintenance is done by the owners of the rented equipment it’s slim.
 
It saddens me to hear advice offered and advice taken about renting a drill to avoid damaging owned equipment. All you do is force the damage cost to others. Others may include the next habitat forum user. How many times has one of us complained about the condition of a rented drill or diagnosed a poor seed distribution after planting with a rented drill? IF any repair/maintenance is done by the owners of the rented equipment it’s slim.

I appreciate your concern. As one who treats equipment with respect, I fully understand, as I like to return equipment as good or better than when I received it. I believe the idea is that the rented drills would be more robust, vis-a-vis a Great Plains or other ag drill. The USDA agent who designed our nesting and pollinator project oversaw the cedar removal and prescribed the no-till drill rental. However, trying to rent one around my schedule during planting season has been a challenge. I also have the option of broadcast, but that requires tilling, and some of the same challenges for the tillage equipment plus double the seed.

I appreciate the answers that are coming in and seeking advise from those who have experience in these areas. Having never used a drill, I am trying to learn as much as possible.
 
It saddens me to hear advice offered and advice taken about renting a drill to avoid damaging owned equipment. All you do is force the damage cost to others. Others may include the next habitat forum user. How many times has one of us complained about the condition of a rented drill or diagnosed a poor seed distribution after planting with a rented drill? IF any repair/maintenance is done by the owners of the rented equipment it’s slim.
The rental world for earth altering equipment is an ugly one. I wish the guys running the rentals would raise the prices and bring out some decent equipment. The leap from DIY humped out rental equipment to hiring an experienced operator with proper equipment is big one.
 
It saddens me to hear advice offered and advice taken about renting a drill to avoid damaging owned equipment. All you do is force the damage cost to others. Others may include the next habitat forum user. How many times has one of us complained about the condition of a rented drill or diagnosed a poor seed distribution after planting with a rented drill? IF any repair/maintenance is done by the owners of the rented equipment it’s slim.

I have rented a Great Plains 706NT the last 10-15 years from our local Soil and Conservation office and have gotten to know the guy who manages the drill program pretty well. He has told me some stories that would have you shaking your head. I guess we are lucky as he is a stickler on maintenance and keeps the one I rent in great shape.

Now back to the OP’s thread….
 
It saddens me to hear advice offered and advice taken about renting a drill to avoid damaging owned equipment. All you do is force the damage cost to others. Others may include the next habitat forum user. How many times has one of us complained about the condition of a rented drill or diagnosed a poor seed distribution after planting with a rented drill? IF any repair/maintenance is done by the owners of the rented equipment it’s slim.
The reality is...the OP was considering the purchase of a light duty drill that is likely not up to the tasks he thought....IMO. Without seeing his land.....who knows what kind of equipment it would take to do the work he needs done? Are other drills made to operate under those conditions?? Dunno. Likely not. I've rented a few pieces of equipment over time and some seemed to be well cared for and others not so much. Many renters don't have a clue of what kind of machine treatment is within the scope of ordinary use vs abuse.....and little or no experience with operating this gear.

^ This is one of the reasons I bought my own stump grinder and other equipment. At least I know what I got when it's time to use it. The rental pieces are often in poor shape due to previous abuse. Sadly, much of the rental gear gets rode hard and put away wet. I'd have a hard time owning any tractors or implements after its served time in a rental yard.
 
Since we're on the topic of the OP (me), how well do the small box drills (set up for grasses) do with mixes such as the one I will be using? As for the soil, it is clay loam with 3-5% grade. It was former cropland (1980s). In 2000 the land was put into nesting habitat until 2007, since which time the land was fallow until the cedar removal.

The picture below should help visualize the area the cedars were removed and will be put into nesting habitat.
Screen Shot 2022-02-27 at 10.34.22 AM.png
 
If they were pine stumps, I would suggest just using T&M with buckwheat and clover for a couple years till they rot, but cedar stumps can last a long time. If it were me, I would not rush it trying to establish the pollinator blend. Instead of renting a drill, I would rent a mini-excavator for a weekend. I actually purchased one, a JD 35G with about a thousand hours on it: https://habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/mini-excavator.12269/. From looking at your pictures, with a one foot bucket and an excavator that size you could probably pull all the stumps yourself in a weekend or two. It has taken me quite a while to develop all the skills (and I'm still not there) for doing many tasks, but I was able to dig out hardwood stumps the first week I had it. You simply cut the root all around it and tip it out. A thumb reallh helps because you can grab it and provide vertical force as well. I like to lift them as high as I can and drop them several times to knock off as much soil as I can. I'll even sometimes use the bucket teeth to dig soil out of the root ball if it is stubborn.

I've been digging out old cedar stumps from a hedge row along my new driveway I'm putting in. I cut them down with 4' above ground for leverage and still had to cut the roots, I would not attempt to do this with a FEL unless it was on a very big piece of equipment. It is a job for a hoe.

When I think of the cost of repairing a damaged drill, renting an excavator this size would be well worth it, even if you had to rent it for a week. With a larger mini-excavator you could even do the job faster. I'd look for a narrow trenching bucket and thumb. The reason I got the size I got was because I could tow it myself on a 10K trailer. If the rental company will deliver and pick up you may consider the next size up.

I completely agree with FarmerDan. I'd do it right. You will be happier in the long run. I will say that when you pull stumps, you do disturb the soil and it does take time for it to heal. Depending on how much time you have to plan your pollinator mix, I'd consider planting some easier remediation crops after removing the stumps. Perhaps buckwheat in the summer and WR in the winter. When building our barn with living space, I was unable to be around when they dug the sceptic system, so they did not save top soil and reapply it. My wife wanted a mix of wild flowers which has a large overlap with a pollinator blend. It did not fair well with no topsoil. I ended up planting it in buckwheat and sunn hemp the next summer which did a bit better. Eventually we will get pollinator mix after the soil heals a bit more. Your situation won't be as bad, but if possible with your contract, I'd remediate the soil best you can first. Good pollinator mixes are expensive and I'd want to maximize chances of success.

Thanks,

Jack
 
If your stumps are really cut off at ground level maybe a chain harrow would work. I’m not at all familiar with the seeds in your blend but if they’re small they should just need seed to soil contact.
 
Totally off the question - and not to steal the meaning of the thread (he said while holding crossed fingers unseen) - if anyone knows the secret(s) for getting the pollinator seed mixes to germinate, let me know.
 
Totally off the question - and not to steal the meaning of the thread (he said while holding crossed fingers unseen) - if anyone knows the secret(s) for getting the pollinator seed mixes to germinate, let me know.

I find them difficult in general. I think it can take several years for some of the plants to manifest.
 
Totally off the question - and not to steal the meaning of the thread (he said while holding crossed fingers unseen) - if anyone knows the secret(s) for getting the pollinator seed mixes to germinate, let me know.
I have several 4 to 8 acre pollinator plots . It took several winters and spraying cool season every fall and then burning them off after the second year to get a good stand .

Sent from my LM-K920 using Tapatalk
 
OP - A stump grinder rental would go a long way in fixing your problems. Then drill baby, drill.. Wait, nevermind.
 
Top