New guy here. Can I do a no-spray clover plot?

bgusty

5 year old buck +
Hey all, new here and new to habitat management. My parents have a 70 acre farm in southern MN. 30 acres is pasture/ hay for horses, 30 river bottom woods, and 10 acre low land field.

For the 10 acre lower field, it used to be in CRP. Wasn't maintained properly in terms of mowing to keep trees down, so about a third has grown up in trees. I'm working on going through and cutting down any other saplings that are popping up to keep the rest of it as field. The rest of it is native grasses, and taller weeds. Usually gets to be about 5' tall during summer, and it frequently floods for a short time in the spring.

One thing I want to try as my first food plot is doing a clover perimeter around this lower field. Should make field edge access and summer trail cam pics easier. I'm thinking about 10' wide, which should be about two strips for the tractor. I've got a 30HP tractor with a bush hog and a small disc. Family prefers not to spray roundup. If I try to do the perimeter in clover without spraying, what's the best way of going about it? Or is not spraying and trying to get clover to grow just a waste of time? Mow, till, then do fall planting with winter rye cover? Frost seed in spring?

I still need to do soil testing and everything to figure out lime/ fertilizer. Any recommendations on clover that can handle wetter springs? Was thinking of putting together a blend of Ladino, Alice, NZ and White Dutch clover. Should I add in some red clover or chicory as well? Thanks for any assistance!
 
I plan on doing something similar. My plan is to brushhog as low as I can, then come back with a box blade and use the scarifiers to essentially plow up. Then, do a clover mix and chickory spread immediately prior to rain. It will be interesting to see the results, but I am hoping since I will be doing this after spring / summer, the competition from the seed bank will be lower. I will also mix in winter wheat as a cover / nurse crop.
 
I plan on doing something similar. My plan is to brushhog as low as I can, then come back with a box blade and use the scarifiers to essentially plow up. Then, do a clover mix and chickory spread immediately prior to rain. It will be interesting to see the results, but I am hoping since I will be doing this after spring / summer, the competition from the seed bank will be lower. I will also mix in winter wheat as a cover / nurse crop.
So are you looking to do your planting early fall? What's your mix on chicory/ clover?
 
I think it is possible, but odd a are your going to have a LOT of pre existing things take over and the clover will not be near what it can be!
as even if you mow/disc to kill things, when your discing your going to be turning up seeds already in the soil that will have a jump start on the clover seeds, and many of the things already growing might have very deep roots and just grow right back before the clover will, , thus choking a lot of the new clover seeds out as it out grows it!

as when you lime, fertilize things, your also going to be adding fertilizer to the other things as well as the NEW clover seeds!
this is why spraying before planting and AFTER works so much better than NOT, MOST times!
exceptions to all rules ! but on average spraying saves a lot of wasted energy IMO!


AND?
another thought here if it was ME< I would cut WIDER Than your planning to plant
this way there will sort of be a buffer zone between TALL already established things
this way it will slow things down before getting into your new clover, NOT have any issue's with shade too
things will grow back, so, its not like your creating a dead zone

IMO< you would just be giving your clover seeds the best shot at coming up when not spraying before and after as needed!
 
As mentioned as, you’ll have lots of other things coming up after tilling, but I think fall planting with rye would be one of your best bets to hopefully get it established without spraying. Alsike clover is supposedly one of the best for wet areas. Good luck!!
 
It really depends on how weed tolerant you are and what your mix of weeds is. If most of your grasses and weeds are annuals, you might be able to keep it mowed very low this summer. You are probably going to have to do some kind of minimum tillage. I would consider waiting until you are at the very end of the summer growing season before min-tilling and planting. When I say minimum tillage, I mean not more than the top inch or so. My fields look more green than brown after min-tilling. Definitely plan with a thick Winter Rye nurse crop plus your clover this fall. I'd consider going with a short-lived perennial this year like medium red. These are faster to establish than long-lived perennial clovers. Without herbicide or deep tillage (which can be very bad for the soil in the long run), the clover will need every advantage it can get over weeds. Keeping the field bushhogged flat all summer will at least keep weeds from going to seed. Planting late will favor cool season crops like WR and Clover over warm season weeds. You just need the soil warm enough for clover and WR to germinate and start growing. Use heavier than typical seeding rates.

Forget blending clover and trying to focus on deer. Focus on getting weeds under control first. Each time the WR gets to be much over a foot next spring, mow it back to about 8". Medium red will be fine for deer and will only last about 2 years. However, keeping the field mowed will help with the broadleaf weeds.

Even doing all of this, you will still have weeds in your field. That is not a bad thing. Many broadleaf weeds are better deer food than clover depending on the timing. Since you don't want to spray, you will be using these techniques to get the field in shape for your eventual perennial clover mix. You just want to get the weeds manageable. At that point, you can bushhog the field flat and plant your long-lived perennial clover mix with a WR nurse crop using the same technique. By this point, you will have the weeds under control as much as you are going to get without herbicides or deep tillage.

You may be tempted to use deep tillage for weed control. If you have very fertile high quality soil, you can probably get away with that using a bottom-plow and turning the soil. Before you go that route, please google "Ray the soil guy" and understand the damage deep tillage can do to your soils. I have marginal soils, and it has taken more than 10 years for my soils to begin to recover from the early abuse with a plow when I understood less about soil science.

Good Luck,

Jack
 
I think it is possible, but odd a are your going to have a LOT of pre existing things take over and the clover will not be near what it can be!
as even if you mow/disc to kill things, when your discing your going to be turning up seeds already in the soil that will have a jump start on the clover seeds, and many of the things already growing might have very deep roots and just grow right back before the clover will, , thus choking a lot of the new clover seeds out as it out grows it!

as when you lime, fertilize things, your also going to be adding fertilizer to the other things as well as the NEW clover seeds!
this is why spraying before planting and AFTER works so much better than NOT, MOST times!
exceptions to all rules ! but on average spraying saves a lot of wasted energy IMO!


AND?
another thought here if it was ME< I would cut WIDER Than your planning to plant
this way there will sort of be a buffer zone between TALL already established things
this way it will slow things down before getting into your new clover, NOT have any issue's with shade too
things will grow back, so, its not like your creating a dead zone

IMO< you would just be giving your clover seeds the best shot at coming up when not spraying before and after as needed!

So would I mow, spray with roundup 2 weeks later when it starts to green up, then till and seed? Or do I not till if I spray? I was hoping that the clover and maybe a nurse cover crop would be able to out compete a decent amount of the weeds initially.
 
Fall planting with WR and red clover and Jumbo white or ladino clover.

In spring let the WR grow till about mid June and the terminate by mowing. You will cut/kill alot of the grasses and weeds that pop-up also. You can mow again late Aug which will attack the grasses/weeds and not let them go to seed.

If you spray with round-up you will for sure stunt and set the clover back, may even kill it.

If you minimize spraying and use mowing to control, your plot will start to look like this ... 2 years ago this plot was all reed canary grass. Took 3 gly spray sessions to kill. then over seeded in fall with ER & clover. Last year it has turnips/brassicas in the spring and fall overseeding of WR/clover.
0628201117.jpg
 
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So would I mow, spray with roundup 2 weeks later when it starts to green up, then till and seed? Or do I not till if I spray? I was hoping that the clover and maybe a nurse cover crop would be able to out compete a decent amount of the weeds initially.

If you are OK with spraying, it changes everything. Here is the best practice for establishing perennial clover:
1) Use throw and mow if your soil will allow, if not , min-till.
2) You have time to plant buckwheat if you do it ASAP. That will help with weed control.
3) You can plant and spray the same day. I'd wait until evening temps begin to cool and favor clover in your area. Try to have rain in the forecast.
4) Use a Winter Rye nurse crop along with your clover.
5) Next spring, each time the WR gets more than a foot, mow it back to about 8" to release the long-lived perennial clover. This will keep the WR alive until it dies naturally (verses spraying a selective herbicide) while giving the clover the sunlight it needs.
6) After that first year of establishment, tolerate weeds.
7) I like to mow right before the season in the fall when weather is favoring the established clover.

Good Luck,

Jack
 
It really depends on how weed tolerant you are and what your mix of weeds is. If most of your grasses and weeds are annuals, you might be able to keep it mowed very low this summer. You are probably going to have to do some kind of minimum tillage. I would consider waiting until you are at the very end of the summer growing season before min-tilling and planting. When I say minimum tillage, I mean not more than the top inch or so. My fields look more green than brown after min-tilling. Definitely plan with a thick Winter Rye nurse crop plus your clover this fall. I'd consider going with a short-lived perennial this year like medium red. These are faster to establish than long-lived perennial clovers. Without herbicide or deep tillage (which can be very bad for the soil in the long run), the clover will need every advantage it can get over weeds. Keeping the field bushhogged flat all summer will at least keep weeds from going to seed. Planting late will favor cool season crops like WR and Clover over warm season weeds. You just need the soil warm enough for clover and WR to germinate and start growing. Use heavier than typical seeding rates.

Forget blending clover and trying to focus on deer. Focus on getting weeds under control first. Each time the WR gets to be much over a foot next spring, mow it back to about 8". Medium red will be fine for deer and will only last about 2 years. However, keeping the field mowed will help with the broadleaf weeds.

Even doing all of this, you will still have weeds in your field. That is not a bad thing. Many broadleaf weeds are better deer food than clover depending on the timing. Since you don't want to spray, you will be using these techniques to get the field in shape for your eventual perennial clover mix. You just want to get the weeds manageable. At that point, you can bushhog the field flat and plant your long-lived perennial clover mix with a WR nurse crop using the same technique. By this point, you will have the weeds under control as much as you are going to get without herbicides or deep tillage.

You may be tempted to use deep tillage for weed control. If you have very fertile high quality soil, you can probably get away with that using a bottom-plow and turning the soil. Before you go that route, please google "Ray the soil guy" and understand the damage deep tillage can do to your soils. I have marginal soils, and it has taken more than 10 years for my soils to begin to recover from the early abuse with a plow when I understood less about soil science.

Good Luck,

Jack
Awesome. Thanks for the in-depth response. I like the idea of trying to just bring in the fall WR and a red clover as an initial weed reduction and then in a couple years work in the other clover.
 
So are you looking to do your planting early fall? What's your mix on chicory/ clover?

Correct. First part of August. I do not care if there are weeds. If I get a 50/50 mix I will be happy. Weeds are just an added diversity to the mix :).

I do plan on frost seeding next year as well. These plots will be doubling as firebreaks for burning next March.
 
Fall planting with WR and red clover and Jumbo white or ladino clover.

In spring let the WR grow till about mid June and the terminate by mowing. You will cut/kill alot of the grasses and weeds that pop-up also. You can mow again late Aug which will attack the grasses/weeds and not let them go to seed.

If you spray with round-up you will for sure stunt and set the clover back, may even kill it.

If you minimize spraying and use mowing to control, your plot will start to look like this ... 2 years ago this plot was all reed canary grass. Took 3 gly spray sessions to kill. then over seeded in fall with ER & clover. Last year it has turnips/brassicas in the spring and fall overseeding of WR/clover.
View attachment 30434
Good looking plot right there!
 
Might be a little late this year, but I would think about disking the crap out of your 10' wide strip for a few weeks in the mid to late spring followed by a heavy buckwheat planting to suppress weeds. Then follow that up with a late summer rye and clover planting into the buckwheat. You could terminate the buckwheat with a roller/crimper, free roll a rototiller over it, or just drive over it with your tractor tires.
 
I started a really clean clover plot this spring. Last fall my summer mix got choked out by foxtail and I didn't have time to do anything with it in the fall. So, I came back in the spring and frost seeded a heavy rate of red and white clovers into the dead foxtail stubble. Caught on really really well. However, when the foxtail started coming on strong I knocked it out with clethodim in early June.

If your family is JUST opposed to spraying roudup/glyphosate I've heard (but have no experience) you can at least top kill vegetation with a heavy mix of Vinegar. Hit it hard a couple times and then right before a rain, get your seed onto the ground among that stubble. I think that might have a better chance than mowing or tilling without spraying anything to kill.
 
You will be able to start that plot without spraying. Timing, like anything else, is important. I would do a modified version of what Jack said in his first post.

Keep the area mowed to prevent this years "weeds" from going to seed.

Early August, lightly disturb the top inch or so of soil and broadcast a radish, turnip, rape blend @ no more than 3#/acre.

Labor Day weekend Broadcast your clover blend (I wouldn't consider leaving out the chicory) and 100#/acre of winter cereal rye.

I would mow the clover blend Mem. Day and Labor Day weekends 2021.

It WILL be weedy the first year but every year after it will get better and better.

If you want to keep the clover growing for a long time I would be sure to TNM rye and radishes every year when there is rain in the forecast anytime after August 15.

It wouldn't hurt to broadcast more clover and chicory with your rye and radishes about once every 4 years.

Good luck
 
You will be able to start that plot without spraying. Timing, like anything else, is important. I would do a modified version of what Jack said in his first post.

Keep the area mowed to prevent this years "weeds" from going to seed.

Early August, lightly disturb the top inch or so of soil and broadcast a radish, turnip, rape blend @ no more than 3#/acre.

Labor Day weekend Broadcast your clover blend (I wouldn't consider leaving out the chicory) and 100#/acre of winter cereal rye.

I would mow the clover blend Mem. Day and Labor Day weekends 2021.

It WILL be weedy the first year but every year after it will get better and better.

If you want to keep the clover growing for a long time I would be sure to TNM rye and radishes every year when there is rain in the forecast anytime after August 15.

It wouldn't hurt to broadcast more clover and chicory with your rye and radishes about once every 4 years.

Good luck

Thanks for this!

Can you explain a little of why/ how you got to that suggestion? Why start with the brassicas in August? Do I make any changes to the clover rate of 6-8# per acre? What’s the TNM of rye and radishes/ why do that?

Thanks in advance!


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