Land buying questions

[nwmn]

So I'm looking at buying land within an hour of where I live. Where myself and my buddy are used to is in the flat land area, where there's literally a 5 foot elevation change over a mile.

This land we want is in steep hillsides, and rolling pasture. We love it. There are sugar maples, white and red oaks, a lake, pasture ground, and it just feels awesome out there. Where we are, there are only bur oaks and aspen, so variety is pretty awesome.

A couple if downsides: pasture has boulders, and lots if them, so turning it to tillable will have its challenges. The pasture is also full of Canadian thistle, like 10' tall in some areas. Ugly. There is a 40 of pure timber, but we found out they are clearcutting it. Taking out mostly aspen and the guy running the hydro ax said any marketable timber, over the entire 40. This sucks, but also provides areas for plots and trails.

They are asking 1250 an acre for 200 acres.

For all these things I mentioned, is it reasonable to come in with a lowball offer? They are taking value out of the 40, and making money pre sale so that only makes sense. With the pasture being so rocky it doesn't quite pass as tillable, and with thistle out there it will take some work to get rid of it. They include swampland and a pond as part of the acreage, so what we did is itemize the components and assigned a value to them and it came in substantially lower. Point being, black dirt productive farm land is going for around 1500-1600 in this area. Valuing already logged woods is tricky, and valuing "tillable" land that's got thistle, rocks, and bushes all over is also tough. The pond and swamps won't return any income, and with it being open water is it reasonable to devalue that significantly since there is technically no land being bought but merely area?

We have areas picked out for food plots and are in love with the area, but don't want to make an offer too high. The logging thing bothers me too, will we get regrowth if it's getting cut in the summer?

Any help with these questions would help significantly with our approach.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[John-W-WI]

You sound really jacked about the property (congrats!) - so it's really going to come down to what it's worth to you.

All of the negatives you mention have merit, but will the next guy care? Starting low and working your way up is an option, but you could get caught and lose out too.

Logging in the summer shouldn't matter much. I think you'll get regen next year either way.

-John

 

[Boll Weevil]

My recommendation would be do some research on clearcut ground sales price is in your area and factor in your cost for regeneration / rehabilitation. Call a few foresters and/or real estate agents to get a better idea of actual sales price vs. asking price. If it's being clearcut and there's little to no tillable ground you're probably going to be left with a high-graded timber stand, full of junk trees, stumps, and tops. Might not be alot of income potential over the short term and regenerating a healthy, valuable timber stand is going to take some time and effort.

Owning your own piece of property can be incredibly rewarding from both recreation and investment perspectives, but be honest with yourself about expectations for a given tract. It could be a great "project property" if you can acquire for a low price/acre and rehab it. Good luck to you and let us know how things pan out.

 

[dsinwi]

Congrats on finding a piece of property that you like. That can be the hardest part. I am not a relator, farmer, or land developer however, I ran into the same kinds of questions and concerns as you when I purchased rec land 7 years ago. I would agree that taking the timber off would reduce the value of the land, imo. I wouldn't see the thistle etc. in the pasture as a deterrence. Yes they can be tough to deal with but can be remedied and so can the boulders at a cost. Perhaps if you are looking for income opportunity from this purchase they could be a deterrent for you, I don't know. The logging activity could be a plus in terms of regen but that will take some time obviously.
As John said, what's it worth to you is pretty good advice. Only you can make that decision. If I were a serious buyer I'd get some comps from the area, do some research on the county tax website, and have an open and honest conversation with the seller\agent. it can be difficult to shop both with your heart and your head at times.
Good Luck!

 

[bueller]

I wouldn't make any type of offer on something that will be logged between the time of my offer and the closing. Too many unknowns. Deep ruts, junk trees only left, lack of regen, invasive species moving in, just to name a few. I wouldn't have a problem making an offer a couple years after a place is logged as you should have a good idea of the regen by that time.

 

[JFK52]

Cutting aspen in the winter is the best time to get the maximum regeneration out of it. Cutting it in the summer gives you a lot less regeneration. Bueller hit it on the head with a list of potential downsides to logging operations.
Sounds like the owners want to get every penny off the land before they sell it.

 

[j-bird]

My 2 cents worth here. Thistle - isn't a major issue for a farmer - he is going to spray the crap out of it anyway. Boulders however are a different matter. If they are few enough to remove and move on then again farmers won't care as much. If it's boulder after boulder then that is different as well. I would price it like it's pasture ground and see what that is going for in the area. As for the timbering.....that's a red flag to me. Only make your offer based on what you KNOW. Don't buy it and still let them timber it.......either buy it as it is with the timber standing, or wait until after the place is cut and see what you are actually left with. You could be left with a significant mess, both physically and from a habitat perspective. Avoid a true "low-ball" offer. Your likely just going to upset them. Make your offer based on research you have done and a reasonable price. Also look at what other properties sell for and not the asking price - totally different thing!

 

[bowhunternw]

You should just buy that 80 a mile east of your other property, jk. You must be looking closer to Bemidji, well I can tell you that timber actually has some significant value there. The downfall is land taxes are at least double of what they are here, so over that 50 years that the trees are regrowing, you will have probably paid all that profit back. It is some very nice country over there though.

 

[bowhunternw]

Actually I think I found the piece you are talking about, the 40 sits off to the SW of the main chunk?

 

[broom_JM]

The last thing you ever want to do is fall "in love" with a property. That makes it difficult to be rational about the way you look at it or what you're willing to pay for it. As others have mentioned, you either buy it before it's logged, ensuring that job is done to YOUR specifications, or you wait for 2 to 3 years after it's logged, so you can be sure what you're getting into. Under no circumstances would I buy a property that is going to be logged before I take possession.

I would add that I feel recently logged properties can be an excellent value for sportsmen looking to improve land for wildlife habitat, but you should be paying accordingly. The circumstances you describe would be a non-starter, for me. The only possible caveat would be a first right of refusal agreement, signed before logging commences, with stipulations on how the logging is to be conducted. The seller will probably tell you to go pound sand, but it's the only smart way to buy that piece, other than walking it with a forester after the cutting is done.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[bwoods11]

I would be careful on the price and the logging (that would be a no deal for me)...they might take way too much and leave you with scrub. Personally, I think I know the area, and you can find some nice stuff for less than $1000/acre

 

[nwmn]

All great advice guys, appreciate the insight. We wrote up a long list of shortfalls of the property and I did an extensive look into land sales in the township, and made an offer in line with that. The logging activity seems to be only aspen. I spoke to the guy at the osb board mill as well as a local logger. He said logged land still has value, but 600 would be a starting point. I was thinking about it myself, if I'd rather buy land that has been logged at a discount or buy it at a premium then log, and I figured i would rather have less of a payment up front and added habitat than to wait and pay taxes on the income.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[nwmn]

I checked with a few of my old contacts at fws and they got me in contact with a private lands specialist, I'm hoping the lake would have value for duck nests and such, and maybe get into some programs. We went pretty low on an offer. To make it productive it will take money, so what they called tillable hasn't been turned over in 20 years, it ain't worth that as it lays now. It's a great area for genetics from what I've heard too. They do a horrible job marketing hunting land in this area, so that's another variable we've got on our side. No signs up, it's a local listing so no mls exposure, and the realtor said she hasn't even been there yet. Signs pointing to no interest or activity. Hence why I think they are logging, due to no interest. Or, they're just double dipping. The plan is to get it low, spray dicamba/roundup/ curtail whatever to kill the thistle, establish food plots, put up some stands, maintain trails and cameras, and get some gnarly bucks on camera and maybe sell it in a couple years.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[nwmn]

Or keep it if we have great success, if we can afford to. Opportunity cost will be a big factor. I hate that they're logging it, but the woods is majority aspen, so it's going to great a great sanctuary.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[nwmn]

I wouldn't make any type of offer on something that will be logged between the time of my offer and the closing. Too many unknowns. Deep ruts, junk trees only left, lack of regen, invasive species moving in, just to name a few. I wouldn't have a problem making an offer a couple years after a place is logged as you should have a good idea of the regen by that time.

We put a contingency on logging stops if the offer is accepted. We haven't heard back since Thursday. They've had rain down there so I don't think they would be operating since then since the terrain is pretty elevated.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[nwmn]

You should just buy that 80 a mile east of your other property, jk. You must be looking closer to Bemidji, well I can tell you that timber actually has some significant value there. The downfall is land taxes are at least double of what they are here, so over that 50 years that the trees are regrowing, you will have probably paid all that profit back. It is some very nice country over there though.

Haha, I noticed it for sale after we got interested in this one. If it falls through, I'll probably put in an offer. An offer more in line with what we paid for ours, which has 45 tillable acres on it. First order of business would be to log the thing too!

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[nwmn]

Actually I think I found the piece you are talking about, the 40 sits off to the SW of the main chunk?

Yep, just east of lengby. Cool area. Get out of the flat land region. What are your thoughts? Bad marketing, only one pic on their website, and they're asking price is steep considering the pond is wasteland.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[nwmn]

It's also worth noting that the neighboring two counties are the poorest counties per capita in Minnesota, so I can't imagine locals being able to afford a downpayment on any larger tracts. We went low, but justified our offer and the value breakdown by acre. Nobody has used the property for years. It's just a waste of land to not get used. Will keep updates coming

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

 

[bowhunternw]

Yep, just east of lengby. Cool area. Get out of the flat land region. What are your thoughts? Bad marketing, only one pic on their website, and they're asking price is steep considering the pond is wasteland.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

Well I don't know what to think on that one, that is some of my favorite country in the state. However what do you do with it is the question, most of the main chunk is very little tree cover. Are you planning to rent out the pasture or try to convert it to farming? I would imagine that is very poor farm country. It is still in the land of reasonable taxes at least.

 

[Boll Weevil]

For what's it's worth, I think you're looking at the opportunity through a realistic and objective lens.

I'm also considering adding some ground that's been clearcut with the intention of cleaning up the bottomground for rowcrop and replanting the high ground. The seller's asking price is way too high considering the current market, value of the tract, and significant rehabilitation that will be required. While it'd be great to add some ground I'm not nearly disillusioned enough to pay for an overpriced property with the knowledge that significant additional investment will be required.