Inverted Radicle Grafting Attempt - Transferred from QDMA Forums

[yoderjac]

I've done some reading and thought I'd give it a try. I didn't have much to work with, so I don't expect success. I'll be happy if I walk away with lessons learned.
Nuts and Scions:

The scion cut for wedge type graft after wrapping the top with Parafilm-M:

The tip of the root radicle is cut off and the radicle is split like you would for a wedge or cleft graft.

The next step I found to be the hardest part. You insert the scion into the root radicle and secure it with parafilm. Because there is no cambium in the root radicle, there is no alignment needed. You just need to scion cambium layer to contact the root radicle anywhere. You then invert the nut:

Continued...

I could only find a few scions small enough to try. Here are two completed. I may try 1 or two more:

I'm not expecting success on my first attempt, but I will report back if anything happens.
Thanks,
Jack

Interesting.. So are you taking a Chinese Chestnut and grafting Dunstan on to it?

I'm not sure what all combinations of nuts and scions are compatible. The nuts I used were Chinese. Some of the reading I did said there are incompatibilities depending on the varieties used. I'll probably try different combinations of nuts and scions over time. For now, I'm just working on technique.
I'm not happy with using parafilm to complete the bond between scion and radicle. You just can't put the pressure on a root radicle you can on wood. I'm thinking of experimenting with saran wrap or something like that. I don't think you need lots of sustained pressure for this. Root radicle cells grow very fast. I'm guessing the bond will succeed or fail within days.
As for varieties, we say we are planting Dunstan chestnuts. In actuality, we are planting offspring of Dunstans unless we are buying trees that are actually grafted with original Dunstan scions. In general, we I, and most of us are doing, is getting trees highly related to Dunstan chestnuts.
So, I'm thinking that some of the "Dunstans" I plant over time will have different characteristics than others. I'd like to option clone trees I like. As I understand it, normal chestnut grafting is possible but not easy and that inverted radicle grafting has a higher compatibility rate.
I hope to find combinations of nuts and scion varieties that have high success rates.
Thanks,
Jack

Cool experiment. I haven't seen it done that way exactly, do you have any info on where you heard about it? I tried a similar technique last year that I believe is called nut grafting. Its similar to what you did except a the whole radical and a bit or the nut is cut off, and the scion wedge is inserted directly into the nut.
I know indianasam had some success doing this, I did not. I tried chinese scion into american nut. I don't think I got scions at the right time of year.
http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58645

Quote:
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Originally Posted by homegrownbucks
Cool experiment. I haven't seen it done that way exactly, do you have any info on where you heard about it? I tried a similar technique last year that I believe is called nut grafting. Its similar to what you did except a the whole radical and a bit or the nut is cut off, and the scion wedge is inserted directly into the nut.
I know indianasam had some success doing this, I did not. I tried chinese scion into american nut. I don't think I got scions at the right time of year.
http://www.qdma.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58645
==================================
I can't remember where I first heard about it. I know we have discussed it at least superficially on this forum. Here is one good article on it: <http://81.0.228.28/publicFiles/51339.pdf
I did some digging and found a few others but can't remember where.
Nut grafting is also a well proven technique. I followed that IndianSam thread closely and found it very interesting.
Thanks,
Jack

Now that was and interesting read, Yoder. Be fun to follow the results. I always like reading your threads on these type of things. Keep us posted.

Now I am excited to follow this thread. Can't wait to see some success.
good luck
todd

Is this graft superior to a graft made on a seedling tree?
And if you graft the root, what feeds the tree?

Nice to see someone trying and posting results. I plan on trying this with about 50 american chestnuts the amhurst, Adair and a ozark chinkapin. I have emailed a lady named Joyce I seen her article on this grafting method. If you need some more diameter let it grow out a shoot a few inches long then cut it off and graft into the radicle. She told me they could take a few weeks for them to take so don't give up on them too fast. She also told me it had a higher success rate than the nut grafting if inverted don't take it will send up a shoot that can be grafted later but nut grafting once that radicle is severed it's done if it don't take. This woman was very informative I think she was grafting american chestnuts in Canada. She also shared a potential way to get past the compatibility issues. Grow the chestnuts in a dark room with no light they should be white because they don't have sunlight to make chlorophyll. If you graft them in this state they shouldn't have compatibility issues for some reason. I will look up more in the emails I'm sure I left some out.
Thanks,
Daniel

Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fish
Is this graft superior to a graft made on a seedling tree?
And if you graft the root, what feeds the tree?
==================================
I'm not sure what &quot;superior&quot; means. I think different grafting techniques have different advantages and disadvantages. The paper on the link talks about some different techniques.
Comparing the kinds of techniques in the article to more traditional grafting techniques, I would say the big advantage is quick failure. This isn't an issue with trees like persimmon, apple, and such that graft relatively easily. As I understand it, chestnuts have a fairly high failure rate with traditional techniques.
If I start a chestnut from the nut, it takes months of care and feeding until it is large enough to graft traditionally. All that is lost if the graft fails. I think the thing that the techniques have is a better timeline.
As far as the specific inverted radicle grafting technique goes, I think the chestnut still has a lot of energy when the root radicle is small like that. When you graft scion wood to the root radicle and invert and plant it. the nut starts to feed the scion wood. It also thinks the root radicle has been lost and it still has enough energy to produce another. Once the buds open up, it realizes it has top growth feeding it and does not send up a shoot.
At least that is my understanding.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

What scions are you grafting to the nut did you pick them for any certain reason dropping later cold hardy?

This is one of Jocelyn's responses to my email if this is any useful info for anyone.
&quot;Both methods remove the tap root and produce a more fiberous root
system. You will need to water the little trees the first 2 or 3
years while they regrow deeper roots. The inverted radicle has the
advantage of preserving the root collar on the seedling you grafted
on to, so that if the graft fails, you still have a good
seedling. The nut graft can not regrow if it breaks off or gets eaten by mice.
A third choice would be to pot up your germinating nuts and place
them in a dark place till they are 4 to 6 inches tall. This will make them etoliated, white and skinny, and for some reason, they will
not reject a scion if you cleft graft them in this state. You would
then have to bring them into indirect light for a week or so....like
the kitchen table, while they get some colour and get used to the
light. Different genotypes turn different colours, so just wait till
there is some colour...greenish, pinkish, tan, whatever colour they
become after indirect light.
Put them in a sunny window after that and harden off at the usual time in your area. You will need parafilm for the inverted radicle graft, and could use
it also for the cleft graft on the etoliated shoots. A grafting band
and some latex paint also works for the cleft graft. Do NOT use any
of those black asphalt grafting goos, as chestnut is very sensitive
to black goo.&quot;

Quote:
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Originally Posted by DLH
What scions are you grafting to the nut did you pick them for any certain reason dropping later cold hardy?
==================================
As I said in my reply to Fish, for now, I'm trying to learn and perfect the technique. In the long run, you hit nail on the head. I would like to be able to control drop time.
This is part of a broader strategy I'm considering for our property. We just had our pines thinned and have had tow small areas of hardwoods clearcut. We are now improving our firebreaks. We will be burning the pines in the spring and then applying herbicide to the clearcuts following that. Finally we will be burning the clearcuts in the late summer or early fall.
Our purpose for the clearcuts is bedding. We plant to burn every few years to keep them in early succession for a while.
So here is my question How can I maximize long-term quality food in the clearcuts without making hunting harder? We have high pressure in our area, so when we have good acorn production, deer are hard to hunt. They bed in the oaks, stand and move 20 yards to feed on acorns and lay back down until after dark. In poor mast crop years, the are easy to hunt as they move from heavy cover bedding to fields.
The answer I'm working on is to plant trees in the clearcut bedding areas that are fire resistant and produce high quality mast, but drop that mast well prior to the season. In our food plots, we would use the same kinds of trees, but use varieties and individual clones that drop during the season.
My hope is that I can maximize quality food on my land but position that food in such a way that deer are more huntable.
Right now, my thoughts are AC that drop in September and very early dropping persimmon varieties, and perhaps chestnuts for the clearcuts. I also working on later dropping persimmons and chestnuts for the fields.
That is my desire for clonal reproduction. For persimmons, bark grafting in the field works great. I'm looking at alternatives for chestnuts.
Thanks,
Jack

Quote:
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Originally Posted by yoderj@cox.net
So here is my question How can I maximize long-term quality food in the clearcuts without making hunting harder? We have high pressure in our area, so when we have good acorn production, deer are hard to hunt. They bed in the oaks, stand and move 20 yards to feed on acorns and lay back down until after dark. In poor mast crop years, the are easy to hunt as they move from heavy cover bedding to fields.
==================================
Do you fear that on strong mast years, the deer will just leave your property in Oct when the whites are dropping elsewhere?

Quote:
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Originally Posted by Gator
Do you fear that on strong mast years, the deer will just leave your property in Oct when the whites are dropping elsewhere?
==================================
They already do that. We only have about 80 acres of white oaks on our property. We protected all of them during the logging. Deer still use those on heavy mast crop years, but there are many more oaks on adjoining properties. The two small oak ridges we clear-cut were mostly scarlet and chestnut (not swamp chestnut but the kind deer don't like).
In terms of total food volume, we will get more deer food out of the clear-cut than the mature oaks we cut. They were thinly rooted on poor soil and we were starting to lose them to wind during storms anyway.
In terms of attraction, we have always had the problem of deer spending time on adjacent properties during good mast crop years. Our plan to combat that is to add hard mast. I think it is problematic trying to differentiate attractiveness of individual foods with a fine comb. In general, I think chestnuts are at least on the same order of magnitude of attraction as white oak acorns. That is what started us on the Dunstan path.
As I understand it, Dunstans drop in late September through October in our area. I have not confirmed this in person yet. I'm now looking into later dropping Chinese chestnuts like the AU Buck IV which drop in Nov.
We will never solve the great mast crop years for white oaks. The reality is that when food is plentiful and widely distributed, deer simply don't have to move between food and cover. Those will always be tough years for us. I do expect that trees we are planting for mast will mitigate the issue to some degree.
Thanks,
Jack

Any signs of success yet Jack? Lookinf forward too see how this goes for you. I tried one today and the biggest problem I had was the pressure holding it together would push my scion wedge out I think I cut the wedge at too steep an angle.

Quote:
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Originally Posted by DLH
Any signs of success yet Jack? Lookinf forward too see how this goes for you. I tried one today and the biggest problem I had was the pressure holding it together would push my scion wedge out I think I cut the wedge at too steep an angle.
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I had the same problem. I'm not sure how they do it. Nothing seems to adhere to the root radicle.
No signs of success yet, but I'm not really expecting any. I my scion/radical connections were pretty loose.
I was down at the farm last week and grabbed some scions from my planted Dunstan trees. I'm planning to experiment with some nut grafting. I plan on trying to put the Dunstan scions on both Chinese and Dunstan nuts. It will be interesting to see if there is any success difference.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack my attempt with a white oak acorn and chinkapin scionwood is going good as far as I can tell. I checked today and it's starting to put out a new root system. I haven't got to check to see if it is callusing but I'm hoping it's a success. Just doing this in my window seal until it warms in my garage it reached 70 today so it will be within the next month I hope. I also have one in the fridge to see if it will callus up around 45 degrees and start a root system before trying to put on green growth. When will you check yours for callusing?
Thanks,
Daniel

Quote:
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Originally Posted by DLH
Jack my attempt with a white oak acorn and chinkapin scionwood is going good as far as I can tell. I checked today and it's starting to put out a new root system. I haven't got to check to see if it is callusing but I'm hoping it's a success. Just doing this in my window seal until it warms in my garage it reached 70 today so it will be within the next month I hope. I also have one in the fridge to see if it will callus up around 45 degrees and start a root system before trying to put on green growth. When will you check yours for callusing?
Thanks,
Daniel
==================================
I probably won't. In the past I've ended up killing grafts by messing with them and checking them too much. Either the buds will open and start growing or they won't. So far, I see no signs of success. I'm not surprised yours is putting down new roots. That is what happens with nut grafting. I tried some of that as well (see my other thread).
With traditional grafting the scions are quite a bit larger. I think it is common for them to leaf out before the graft takes and they turn brown and die if the graft doesn't take. However the scions we are using for inverted radicle and nut grafting are so small, I doubt they can produce a leaf without the graft taking. So, I'm just going to watch them from a far and if the buds open I'll take some pictures.
Thanks,
Jack

How's it going jack?

Quote:
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Originally Posted by DLH
How's it going jack?
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I'm guessing none are going to take. I also did some nut grafts and those will likely fail as well. Most of them have sent up their own shoots, so I'll still have the underlying trees.
I plan to do a little more reading on this before trying again next year.

 

[yoderjac]

END OF TRANSFER FROM QDMA FORUMS

 

[yoderjac]

Updated Picture Links

 

[Benja]

Jack, I stumbled across this video while searching for information about Harlayne Apricots and thought of you and the nut grafting threads on this forum.

. It looks like they're successfully grafting English Walnuts. I don't know much about nut grafting . . . the video might not add any info . . . but I know I will never find this particular video by accident ever again.