Help with equipment selection

Scott

Yearling... With promise
I apologize if this is not the correct forum and if a moderator thinks this should be placed somewhere else, please move.

After a few years of foodplotting with ATV's and walkbehind equipment, I've decided that next year I am going to invest in a tractor and expand the acreage of plots that I maintain. I was hoping for some guidance in how to pick a planting method and type of tractor I'm looking to get. I am in Pennsylvania mountains with generally rocky and hilly soils with some bottom land that requires tight cornering. A fuller description of my land is below, but for those with ADD like myself, here is my questions.

I was looking into purchasing something close to a BX25D with a PTO. I'd be looking to plant the kill plots I have with rototiller (currently done with walk behind tiller). These plots are all 1/4 acre and require some sharp cornering. The areas where I have larger tracts of land on hilly ridege tops, I am am a little stumped on what to use on these harder soils. (Right now, I either have in clover or plant by killing with gly, spreading something similar to lickcreek's mix, and simply covering with a chain harrow. My seeding rates are high due to what I tend to anticipate as poor germination.) These hill tops seem like an inch or so of soil with shale underneath. My thought would be that with a tractor that a disc or rototiller would be useless. I would either be looking to do close to my same method or get a 3-5 tine cultivator and maintain the depth very shallow and do several passes.

Does anyone with similar soils have any input on their planting methods? For those that use small subcompact tractors, would a 23.0HP tractor be able to pull a cultivator through hard soil? Would it be able to do it uphill? For turning capabilities, am I kidding myself that I would be able to corner within plots that are 1/4 acre with trees and brush enclosing it on all sides?

Thanks for any input you guys might have.



My current acreage:
  • (4) 1/4 acre plots in bottom land with somewhat loose but rocky dirt and TIGHT corners
  • (2) 1/4 acre plot on a ridge top with very hard ground. (Loose inch of soil on top of shale)
  • (1) 1 acre plot on a ridge top gas right of way with very hard ground. (Loose inch of soil on top of shale) very hilly
I've planted these plots with a walk behind tiller for the bottom land plots and with a drag harrow on the back of an ATV for the harder ground. I'm finding the ATV is just not made to take the abuse and I'm really not either. (I had tried the groundhog max in a few fields and it did really nothing other than bend my receiver).

Investing in a tractor, I'd like to expand my acreage within the footprint I have without clearing trees and this would be my plan.
  • Maintain - 4 1/4 acre plots in bottom land with somewhat loose but rocky dirt and TIGHT corners
  • Expand to about 1 acre - 1/4 acre plot on a ridge top with very hard ground. (Loose inch of soil on top of shale)
  • Expand to 2.5 acres - 1 1 acre plot on a ridge top gas right of way with very hard ground. (Loose inch of soil on top of shale) very hilly
 
I'm in the process of replacing my tractor right now, so I've been contemplating some or the issues you have.
Here's a few things I feel are a must for hilly and tight spaces.
4wd.
Split brakes will allow very tight turns.
Ag tires with Rim Guard for stability and improved traction.
Get at least a cat1 3 point, or even a cat2 which will allow you to use either cat 1 or 2 implements.
Everyone loves a front end loader.
I'm torn between gears or hydro. I've ordered a hydro, but if you go gears then a shuttle shift is the way to go.
Big issue...I'd buy a brand that has a shop near you. The shop for my old tractor was 85 miles away. Service work gets extra expensive when you add in long distance hauling costs.
The heavier the tractor the better.
I'm betting that you'll end up wishing you went with more horsepower.

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For planting equipment, there are 2 things to consider.
1; What exactly do you plan on planting? Lickcreek mixes are great but are they appropriate for YOUR site?
And 2; Should you even be planting anything in certain areas?
There are places that just aren't suited to growing crops. Steep slopes, rocky soil, etc are not the best choices for soil disturbance.
Maybe consider non tillage type plants which are soil builders like rye and buckwheat.

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IMO hills and tractors just dont mix well. I use a 33hp Kabota for my plotting. It is all relatively flat ground. I tilled up a plot for a guy on a hillside last summer and it was a very stressful event. It doesnt take much of a hill with those utility tractors to get tippy.

Like mentioned above I think soil building no till would be your best bet based on what you have said your soil is like.
 
I actually just priced tractors last weekend in anticipation of purchasing one next spring. I have a small property with tight spaces. I was looking at Kubota BX series or the John Deere 1 series subcompacts. The local Kubota dealer spent a lot of time with me even knowing I wasn't purchasing right away. He's also five miles from my property so he's won my future business. Anyway, he really steered me to the B series 2601. It's a little more horsepower (26) than the BX with better ground clearance and better 3 point lift capabilities and controls. All with a footprint about the same size as the subcompacts. He quoted me just under $20,000 including a front end loader, 4 foot rotary cutter, 4 foot disc and 5 foot box blade. He said there were some incentives and price breaks on land pride attachments but didn't apply those to the estimate because who knows what they'll be next spring.
 
I apologize if this is not the correct forum and if a moderator thinks this should be placed somewhere else, please move.

After a few years of foodplotting with ATV's and walkbehind equipment, I've decided that next year I am going to invest in a tractor and expand the acreage of plots that I maintain. I was hoping for some guidance in how to pick a planting method and type of tractor I'm looking to get. I am in Pennsylvania mountains with generally rocky and hilly soils with some bottom land that requires tight cornering. A fuller description of my land is below, but for those with ADD like myself, here is my questions.

I was looking into purchasing something close to a BX25D with a PTO. I'd be looking to plant the kill plots I have with rototiller (currently done with walk behind tiller). These plots are all 1/4 acre and require some sharp cornering. The areas where I have larger tracts of land on hilly ridege tops, I am am a little stumped on what to use on these harder soils. (Right now, I either have in clover or plant by killing with gly, spreading something similar to lickcreek's mix, and simply covering with a chain harrow. My seeding rates are high due to what I tend to anticipate as poor germination.) These hill tops seem like an inch or so of soil with shale underneath. My thought would be that with a tractor that a disc or rototiller would be useless. I would either be looking to do close to my same method or get a 3-5 tine cultivator and maintain the depth very shallow and do several passes.

Does anyone with similar soils have any input on their planting methods? For those that use small subcompact tractors, would a 23.0HP tractor be able to pull a cultivator through hard soil? Would it be able to do it uphill? For turning capabilities, am I kidding myself that I would be able to corner within plots that are 1/4 acre with trees and brush enclosing it on all sides?

Thanks for any input you guys might have.



My current acreage:
  • (4) 1/4 acre plots in bottom land with somewhat loose but rocky dirt and TIGHT corners
  • (2) 1/4 acre plot on a ridge top with very hard ground. (Loose inch of soil on top of shale)
  • (1) 1 acre plot on a ridge top gas right of way with very hard ground. (Loose inch of soil on top of shale) very hilly
I've planted these plots with a walk behind tiller for the bottom land plots and with a drag harrow on the back of an ATV for the harder ground. I'm finding the ATV is just not made to take the abuse and I'm really not either. (I had tried the groundhog max in a few fields and it did really nothing other than bend my receiver).

Investing in a tractor, I'd like to expand my acreage within the footprint I have without clearing trees and this would be my plan.
  • Maintain - 4 1/4 acre plots in bottom land with somewhat loose but rocky dirt and TIGHT corners
  • Expand to about 1 acre - 1/4 acre plot on a ridge top with very hard ground. (Loose inch of soil on top of shale)
  • Expand to 2.5 acres - 1 1 acre plot on a ridge top gas right of way with very hard ground. (Loose inch of soil on top of shale) very hilly

You will want a larger frame than the Bx series. I have a B2400 that would serve you much better. I have a buddy with a Bx series and while it has the same hp, the frame is too small for many tasks. Weight is important for many tasks. I find my FEL is used for all kinds of tasks that I never thought of. When you buy a tractor with a FEL, they will fill the rear tires which also helps. L-Series in kuboa is even a bit larger frame and I like it better than my B2400. I also find 4x4 important in may tasks.

HP, Frame Size, 4x4, Weight, FEL are the basic things I'd look for.

Thanks,

Jack
 
I think the rule thumb is 5-10 hp per foot of disc and 5-8 hp per foot of rototiller. Note your PTO hp is what to review for tiller rating.

The BX series looks light for the duty you describe. Your ground clearance of 9.5 inches looks pretty low.

If your budget allows, you should consider getting into the B or BX level. On most forums you will hear the advice of ... whatever hp you are looking at, go to the next level, you won't regret it.
 
Keep in mind that tractors are not like cars. New is not necessarily better. I'd put money into a larger more capable older tractor over a new less capable tractor....
 
I plot 2.5 acres total in perennials and annuals and I use a JD790 (30/26 hp) and that is on flat ground, former ag fields with coarse, well drained soil. I also use it to do more than plot.....I have been very pleased with my machine.
 
For planting equipment, there are 2 things to consider.
1; What exactly do you plan on planting? Lickcreek mixes are great but are they appropriate for YOUR site?
And 2; Should you even be planting anything in certain areas?
There are places that just aren't suited to growing crops. Steep slopes, rocky soil, etc are not the best choices for soil disturbance.
Maybe consider non tillage type plants which are soil builders like rye and buckwheat.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
I plant and plan to continue planting perenial clover plots and cereal grain mix with brassicas. Mix of oats rye turnips have done well with monimal tillage although ive never produced big tubers either radish or turnips. All of our soil is rocky including the ag fields and pasture field the farmers maintain which is why i currently basically no till.

I would honestly keep doing exactly what im doing (glyphosate applications, broadcast seed, pull over with chain harrow on 4 wheeler) but our atvs are just not holding up to the workload of spreading lime, hauling a 20 gallon sprayer and dragging the harrow espe ially. Have broken down in woods 5 times in last 2 years
 
I think the rule thumb is 5-10 hp per foot of disc and 5-8 hp per foot of rototiller. Note your PTO hp is what to review for tiller rating.

The BX series looks light for the duty you describe. Your ground clearance of 9.5 inches looks pretty low.

If your budget allows, you should consider getting into the B or BX level. On most forums you will hear the advice of ... whatever hp you are looking at, go to the next level, you won't regret it.
Thannks for this. For a 4 ft tiller, 8xs would be 32 hp at the pto? That would make what im looking at way undersized.

Getting a larger tractor is what kept me from pulling trigger last year. I have 5 small plots in the woods with tight corners. For the larger plots i wanted a heavier tractor in case i ever wanted to do something other than min tillage crops. For these smaller plots, i felt like i needed a zero turn mower
 
Depends on the ground but 5hp per foot for a tiller should work for you---I have a jd 1025r(wife uses) and it turns a 4ft tiller without issues. That is only a 23hp tractor and getting less than that at the pto.
 
Sounds like you may be answering some of your own questions about what types of equipment you need.
Small, tight plots can be tough to work, especially when hills are involved where you need to make turns. I have some of those myself.
I've realized that if I do a lot of backing in and out, I do a lot less soil damage than trying to make turns. Tight turns and driving repeatedly down the end rows really tears up and compacts soil. And it's worse if you're doing making those maneuvers on slopes.
I was really torn on whether to order a gear or hydro model, but I think I realized that a hydro will be faster and easier for maneuvering in small plots. I'll be glad to kiss my old gear tractor goodbye. Constantly having to shift (and double clutch) because of tight areas was a pain, and I'd get tired of doing it so I'd try to make turns instead of working in a fwd/rev pattern. My plots are never nice and lush where I have to make tight turns. A hydro will be so much nicer.
But I don't own a chain harrow like you so I have no idea about backing up with one. I assume that it can't be done unless there is some type of 3 point frame for a drag?


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I plant and plan to continue planting perenial clover plots and cereal grain mix with brassicas. Mix of oats rye turnips have done well with monimal tillage although ive never produced big tubers either radish or turnips. All of our soil is rocky including the ag fields and pasture field the farmers maintain which is why i currently basically no till.

I would honestly keep doing exactly what im doing (glyphosate applications, broadcast seed, pull over with chain harrow on 4 wheeler) but our atvs are just not holding up to the workload of spreading lime, hauling a 20 gallon sprayer and dragging the harrow espe ially. Have broken down in woods 5 times in last 2 years

Based on the duty and impact on your ATV's, the BX series does not look like a tractor, looks like a lawn mower. I think you will have the same issues.

Regarding a roto tiller, not sure why this is the choice for ground prep? I have a 6' disc for my tractor. I planted 12 acres this past summer by spraying with gly then discing under. I then plant my seed by broad casting. For seed such as soy beans, winter peas, or oats, I will run the disc over again with limited depth. For seed such as clover, WR, turnips, etc, I simply broadcast on the surface. If I have time I may run a cultipacker over but not always.

A neighbor has tried to bury weeds & grass in unprepared ground with his roto tiller and it continually gets bound up. He now has to go over the weeds & grass with his deck mower to chop every thing up first.

Spend as much as you can on tractor hp, start out with simple tools, learn as you go.
 
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Based on the duty and impact on your ATV's, the BX series does not look like a tractor, looks like a lawn mower. I think you will have the same issues.

Regarding a roto tiller, not sure why this is the choice for ground prep? .

Probably my mistake explaining. Ive used a chain harrow on my high ground which is more rocky and a push behind honda rototiller on my bottomland plots that have better soil and more moisture and deeper soil. Probably my problem that im trying something that fits both.

My real problem is simply that the atvs dont seem built to pull a drag harrow or carry 20+ gallons of water in a sprayer without overheating amd breaking down
 
I would think the BX series would struggle to perform any better than your ATV's have even at the current amount of plotting you are currently doing. BX series is essentially a large lawn mower. Your work load is asking far more than that of basic lawn chores and gardening. It's simply a lighter duty machine. I would suggest a B series machine - even if you stay in the same power class. You are wanting to almost double the plotting area while still doing these same tasks that your ATV's can't handle......you are going to need something that is better suited for that work load......something that can take that sort of "pounding" if you will. Just my opinion.
 
Keep in mind that there are differences in soils and approaches and I now use equipment very differently now than when I started. I really hurt myself in the early days using a bottom plow followed by rototilling at full depth. I've learn a lot over the years, and I now focus on soil health and lower input more sustainable approaches.

In addition to the damage I did to the soil in those early plots, I went through rototiller tines like they were chocolate. I have heavy clay soil and it tends to crust. I'd love to do full no-till, but what seems to work best in the long run for me is min-till. For beans and corn I use a 4' Kasco no-till Versadrill. For the rest, I surface broadcast. In both cases I use a tiller first, but I don't use it in the traditional way. I lift it with the hitch so that I'm barely hitting the top inch or less of soil. It disturbs vegetation and breaks any crusting or glazing. It will terminate things like PTT in the spring at the same time. This maintains the soil tilth and does not burn OM at the rate that traditional tillage does.

With this kind of use of a tiller, our little Ford 1300 (15 engine hp and 13 pto hp) is plenty for running a 4' tiller. If you drop the tiller to full depth in our heavy clay when it is dry, that tractor couldn't begin to handle it.

I'm fortunate, I bought into a place with other owners so we have several size tractors. In addition to this ford, we have a Kioti DK45 4x4 with FEL. While it is our workhorse and can do many things the little ford can't, the Ford is much more efficient and economical to use for some jobs. Keep in mind the ford is not a sub compact. My buddies Bx could would struggle with many things even though it has more hp than the Ford. For example, with the larger frame, the ford can handle my 55 gal Fimco boom sprayer with ease. The bx would struggle with it. The larger frame tractor can handle a post hole digger with 9" or even 12" augers. No luck with the Bx.

Having said all that, I feel your pain and you work with what you can. Some of my first small food plots were built with a back pack sprayer and a Honda lawn tractor pulling a 30" spring tooth harrow from the tab with my buddy standing on it for weight and holding my shoulders for balance.

I understand you have tight turns on some small plots, but I would still opt for a used tractors with a larger frame than the Bx.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Probably my mistake explaining. Ive used a chain harrow on my high ground which is more rocky and a push behind honda rototiller on my bottomland plots that have better soil and more moisture and deeper soil. Probably my problem that im trying something that fits both.

My real problem is simply that the atvs dont seem built to pull a drag harrow or carry 20+ gallons of water in a sprayer without overheating amd breaking down

ATV's are built for speed, tractors for low end torque conversion to the large rear wheels ... any implement you pull behind an ATV will add drag which they are not built for.
 
if a lot of your plots have an inch only of soil, I think you really should be looking at used NO till equipment
all that disking and soil moving, will just over the yrs lead to less and less soil, and more and more rocks being pulled up on you
IMO< I think your way better off buying an older used tractor and a decent NO till planter
and as for an atv for spraying, a sprayer on a trailer works WAY better IMP
I used a 40 gallon one for 10+ yrs never an issue, on a older honda 400 foreman, I like the honda's BEST for food plots, they still have gear transmissions and the foremans are geared rather low, first gear, holding for hours, at 3-4 mph is NOT an issue, nor second gear at 5-7
I sprayed 17 acres a few times a yr, took a few takes and 8 plus hours a day
even built a 16 ft boom for it

I know we all like NEW things, but since your NOT farming for a living a decent used older tractor fix the needed things and you will get tons of years out of them
I just sold a 50 hp, 3,000 hrs, 1960 farmall for 3 grand
many of the older tractors, are as simple to work on as can be, and designed that way, so simple farmers could fix them!
WAY heavier than like sized machine today, so they pulled better due to added weight

your money, but Nothing wrong with getting the RIGHT older tractor for food plots, as were NOT making money doing them 99% of the time, and not putting the hours on them as farmers will

new tractors are far from easy to repair on your own too, so when repairs are needed, unless your a pro tool turner and have access to things, be ready for opening the wallet when things break, and they ALL break
 
if a lot of your plots have an inch only of soil, I think you really should be looking at used NO till equipment
all that disking and soil moving, will just over the yrs lead to less and less soil, and more and more rocks being pulled up on you
IMO< I think your way better off buying an older used tractor and a decent NO till planter
and as for an atv for spraying, a sprayer on a trailer works WAY better IMP
I used a 40 gallon one for 10+ yrs never an issue, on a older honda 400 foreman, I like the honda's BEST for food plots, they still have gear transmissions and the foremans are geared rather low, first gear, holding for hours, at 3-4 mph is NOT an issue, nor second gear at 5-7
I sprayed 17 acres a few times a yr, took a few takes and 8 plus hours a day
even built a 16 ft boom for it

I know we all like NEW things, but since your NOT farming for a living a decent used older tractor fix the needed things and you will get tons of years out of them
I just sold a 50 hp, 3,000 hrs, 1960 farmall for 3 grand
many of the older tractors, are as simple to work on as can be, and designed that way, so simple farmers could fix them!
WAY heavier than like sized machine today, so they pulled better due to added weight

your money, but Nothing wrong with getting the RIGHT older tractor for food plots, as were NOT making money doing them 99% of the time, and not putting the hours on them as farmers will

new tractors are far from easy to repair on your own too, so when repairs are needed, unless your a pro tool turner and have access to things, be ready for opening the wallet when things break, and they ALL break
I have to comment on your opinion on a trailer sprayer.
IMO, tow behind sprayers absolutely suck for tight spaces. Any implement with a short tow tongue is a nightmare to back up.

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