Going all Natural/Native?

[Catscratch]

Getting tired of building cages, wire screens, tree tubes, hauling water, etc (not really tired of it, but maybe reached the limit of what I want to do). I love planting new stuff and want to believe that if I have something the neighbors don't, then deer will spend more time on my place. Unfortunately I'm spending more and more time protecting plantings, checking for pests or disease, and in general worrying.

Thus I've shifted my fall time to collecting and processing native seed. I'm looking forward to propagating and walking away. Who else has shifted their efforts to natives rather than introduced? Did it change your enjoyment levels?

 

[ncstewart]

I have spent 3 years doing what you described and this fall I have started trying other things. I'm also tired of worrying about protecting and babying trees.
I am trying some direct seeding this fall and hoping I will get good enough results to only do this method.
I love tree work but as a new parent I just don't have time to baby the trees anymore.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Native Hunter]

It's not quite that simple. Native and Non Native isn't necessarily the issue.

• How far back in history do we go to decide what is native or introduced? Do we include some introduced apple and pear trees that are essentially bullet proof and require almost no attention after we get them off to a good start? I can take you to old home sites where both pear and apple trees have been covering the ground with fruit for decades and receiving no human intervention while doing it.
• Persimmon trees are native here, but if I plant one out in the open where deer congregate, a young native persimmon tree will get rubbed just like anything else planted in a spot like that. So, if you want a native persimmon at a certain spot, you cage it. You also give it a little attention for the first couple of years and then walk off and enjoy it.
• Your point about pests and disease is well taken; however, that's why we choose species and cultivars that give few if any problems without our intervention.
• In terms of watering - even a transplanted "native sweetgum" could die in a drought the first year if not watered. So, be wise in choosing species to match location and soil condition. Then you only have to "baby" for a short time, and after that, they take care of themselves.
• I have a 12 acre tree planting that receives almost not attention from me except for "spring cleaning." I drop loads of apples, crabapples, pears, chestnuts, and other goodies that both me and the wildlife enjoy. A few days of hard work in the spring is good for my lazy rear end and the "fruits of my labor" are well worth the effort.

So, no I've not felt what you describe.... I love what I'm doing too much to stop....................

 

[Catscratch]

Shouldn't have said I was tire of it, just that I want to shift a little. I will still plant fruit trees every yr and take good care of them. What got me thinking about his is a larger section of acreage that I want trees and woody shrubs in. I had assumed I would plant fruit and nut trees in it. Once I looked at the size and effort of doing so I got stressed about it. Lots of effort and lots of cost. It dawned on me that I had another option and that was to collect seed from things already growing well here (even it it's not strictly native) and let nature take care of it.

 

[j-bird]

Native or not isn't going to reduce the need to be protected or cared for.

Regardless of if it's a native oak or a fruit tree or a chestnut tree - it can still die from drought, disease, still get browsed or rubbed to death.

I try to keep my tree plantings to a small scale....because of the time and effort it takes. However I also spread over 2,000 acorns this fall in hopes that even if just 1% make it - it's better than I had. I spent only a couple of days collecting and then spreading them - maybe it's a waste of time, maybe it isn't - I don't know. All I know is that I can't baby 2,000 trees! That's all I'm putting into it and they are on their own......good luck little acorns. For all I know they are all squirrel food by now. Now on the other hand I plant a few container trees and baby them every year. I will do the same with some choice acorns as well come spring.

The only way I have ever seen trees planted and not had to be protected was in an area where the deer numbers where low to begin with AND they where planted in such a huge volume it wasn't funny. They literally planted acres and acres of 1,000's of seedlings with a tree planter. Most of us don't have those sorts of resources available to us - this was done by a timber company on a neighbor of mine.

 

[Catscratch]

Do you put in around 2k acorns every yr? Has your actual survival rate been around 1%? I find tons of 2ft tall oak trees around the edge of my forest. Planted by nature and hopefully with minimal management they will continue to grow and expand my edge cover.

You are right that I can't plant 1,000's of seedlings (I would if I had the time/funds/and equipment), but like you with oaks I can plant 1,000's of red cedar/sumac/switchgrass/sandplum/and dogwood seeds with very minimal effort. I guess that I'm assuming these seeds won't be preyed upon like acorns and that once sprouted they will have a higher survival rate. The tradeoff is that these species don't provide much (other than cover) like fruit and nut trees do.

 

[j-bird]

Do you put in around 2k acorns every yr? Has your actual survival rate been around 1%? I find tons of 2ft tall oak trees around the edge of my forest. Planted by nature and hopefully with minimal management they will continue to grow and expand my edge cover.

You are right that I can't plant 1,000's of seedlings (I would if I had the time/funds/and equipment), but like you with oaks I can plant 1,000's of red cedar/sumac/switchgrass/sandplum/and dogwood seeds with very minimal effort. I guess that I'm assuming these seeds won't be preyed upon like acorns and that once sprouted they will have a higher survival rate. The tradeoff is that these species don't provide much (other than cover) like fruit and nut trees do.

No - I did it this year simply because A - I found a great source for acorns and B - I was logged this summer so the amount of light is ideal for "planting trees in the woods" right now and C- I needed to do something to get some diversity of the oaks on my place. I will more than likely do this for a few years or as much as I can and see what happens. I have no way to tell if the 1% figure is real or not - I would be thrilled with 1% if it happens. Like I said I may simply just be feeding the squirrels and that would suck, but I gotta try. The acorns where free so I was only out my time and maybe some day there will be an oak sapling I find that doesn't match the others......I'll know where it came from!

Planting a large area would have its challenges. I have never done it so all I could do would be speculate and you can do that. I think the biggest struggle would be getting the seed past all the critters and then keeping the deer from browsing it to death. I know my DNR recommends roughly 700 trees per acre for general reforestation projects - using bare root trees.

 

[yoderjac]

I have not gone all native (or naturalized), but I do focus on minimizing long-term maintenance and am moving more toward permaculture.

 

[Catscratch]

No - I did it this year simply because A - I found a great source for acorns and B - I was logged this summer so the amount of light is ideal for "planting trees in the woods" right now and C- I needed to do something to get some diversity of the oaks on my place. I will more than likely do this for a few years or as much as I can and see what happens. I have no way to tell if the 1% figure is real or not - I would be thrilled with 1% if it happens. Like I said I may simply just be feeding the squirrels and that would suck, but I gotta try. The acorns where free so I was only out my time and maybe some day there will be an oak sapling I find that doesn't match the others......I'll know where it came from!

Planting a large area would have its challenges. I have never done it so all I could do would be speculate and you can do that. I think the biggest struggle would be getting the seed past all the critters and then keeping the deer from browsing it to death. I know my DNR recommends roughly 700 trees per acre for general reforestation projects - using bare root trees.

700 per acre is one major challenge! Something I'm not up for, especially bare root. But I am up to throwing out switchgrass, cedar, and sumac seed in that acre with hopes of head high cover within 3-5 years. Even with this thread started, the highlight of my day today was getting home with enough light to water some of the trees I planted this weekend!

 

[Catscratch]

I have not gone all native (or naturalized), but I do focus on minimizing long-term maintenance and am moving more toward permaculture.

You've been talking permaculture for quite a while! In fact you were the one that got me started with jujube (Tigertooth specifically. Btw, my Tigertooth produce one fruit this yr... I was happy with that since it was planted this spring.).

Maybe I just need to go set in a tree for a while. I haven't taken time to get a single hunt in yet. I bet that would ease my mind a little.

 

[yoderjac]

You've been talking permaculture for quite a while! In fact you were the one that got me started with jujube (Tigertooth specifically. Btw, my Tigertooth produce one fruit this yr... I was happy with that since it was planted this spring.).

Maybe I just need to go set in a tree for a while. I haven't taken time to get a single hunt in yet. I bet that would ease my mind a little.

You're ahead of me with the Jujube. I have some very nice trees that get sun and are growing well, but still no fruit. Ironic that I can get root cuttings to produce fruit in the very first season and can't get 5+ year old trees to produce fruit in the field! Sounds like tigertooth is working well for you. One thing I liked about Jujube is the minimum of maintenance that was supposed to require. Deer don't mess with the trees, but if I can't get them to fruit, they will be a bust for me.

Sitting in a tree is definitely therapeutic for me! It is muzzleloader season here and the rut us just kicking in. Bucks are starting to search. I had a muzzleloader malfunction last night that prevented me from shooting a buck that I should pass. When I got back on the buck a second time after resolving the issue, I got a better look and decided to pass. I saw absolutely nothing tonight and it was still great therapy. I've been splitting my days. I planted and caged 3 apple trees I bench grafted this spring this morning. I also planted 3 hazelnuts I started from seed. Then in afternoons, I've been hunting.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Where I hunt in Pa., there are several other camps in a 2 to 3 mile stretch of our mountain. If the other camps are planting food plots, apples, pears, crabapples, spruce trees, etc. and if we don't - the deer certainly won't be hanging at our acreage. My camp, in fact, has been in the lead with such plantings, so hopefully in another couple years we'll reap the benefits of all we've planted. For us, spring time is the busiest with planting trees for food & cover and pruning / fertilizing. A couple sprays for insects per year ( for the first 5 years ) should get them big enough to fend for themselves based on all I've read and been told by university professors and nursery / fruit tree experts. Our fruit tree selections are all DR varieties to minimize labor and money spent on chemicals for diseases. Our fruit trees are for wildlife and not to grow " pretty " market fruit.

We have a huge supply of oak trees ( naturally ), so we don't have to plant any of those for acorns. All the food & cover trees we've planted are a definite improvement to our acreage. Doing the work to plant them has been a fun exercise and gives us a reason to head to camp - never a bad thing !! If you're doing all the work alone, that can make it tougher for sure. We have the luxury of 6 to 8 guys that get into it and have fun doing all of the work.

The amount of work each person wants to do on his property is an individual decision. For the guys at my camp, it has been a fun process that we enjoy.

 

[j-bird]

Cat - the switch, cedar, sumac would make a great block of cover......if that is what you are after.

 

[Catscratch]

Cat - the switch, cedar, sumac would make a great block of cover......if that is what you are after.

Here is a pic of my hunting grounds. A little cover can go a long ways!

 

[j-bird]

Oh I hear ya cat! Mine isn't pasture - mine is 75% corn or bean field. Great for feeding deer - ain't worth a crap for holding them on a year round basis!

When I started - I had 170 acres. 20 in pasture that was of ZERO habitat value - sold that because the wife wouldn't let me convert it to habitat - I was loosing money with the pasture rental vs the property taxes on it. We have right at 7 acres around the house, gran bin and barns that is of ZERO habitat value. And then I got a whopping 45 acres of actual cover in small blocks and narrow strips where the ground is too steep or wet to farm......the rest is corn and bean field.

You kill that grass off, and work the soil you will get some volunteer weeds and some berry bushes and saplings and the like. You work that soil up and spread some native seed on it and get it covered it will help that much more. But yes you are right cover in that case is obviously your limiting factor and without it nothing else really matters much. more than likely you face a similar situation as I do in that the income from that open ground really helps the family income, so it isn't a matter of just doing what you want with it because it's taking money out of your pocket year after year.....stings.....A LOT! Only thing I have found that comes close to making it worth while is various CRP programs where they cover an annual rental rate. i went that route and added something like 15 acres in cover (weeds and tall grasses) to my place. I still need plenty more, but it a financial balance to say the least.

 

[Catscratch]

Sounds like you've had an interesting land life. You are right; the income is essential. For the most part nothing is getting fenced off, and grass isn't getting taken out. I can only hope to add more taller stuff without sacrificing income. I do have 50 acres that I can do anything I want to with. But that spot isn't the limiting factor for cover.
Did you fall spray and winter disc to generate forb growth?

 

[Boll Weevil]

This is a good topic. A portion of the farm is loblolly pine plantation that if we'll-managed can be solid habitat for all sorts of critters. In hardwood stands we do a lot of TSI to not only improve timber value and species mix, but also native browse and nesting cover. Edge buffering the ag fields produces tons of chow and cover per acre and Ma Nature has programmed those "crops" to survive drought where a cultivated crop would not (couldn't believe the greenbriar, poke, and partridge pea this summer during a time we hadn't had measurable rainfall for nearly 60 days). Even though a lot of it is just "weeds" to hardcore plotters the deer prefer it in many cases.

This fall I've been collecting American Beatyberry berries/seeds by the gazillions and will scatter them in the coming weeks along inside corners of big fields and protected fallow areas.

 

[j-bird]

Sounds like you've had an interesting land life. You are right; the income is essential. For the most part nothing is getting fenced off, and grass isn't getting taken out. I can only hope to add more taller stuff without sacrificing income. I do have 50 acres that I can do anything I want to with. But that spot isn't the limiting factor for cover.
Did you fall spray and winter disc to generate forb growth?

Nope - to get the native weeds and the like mother nature did it all by herself. My tall grasses where drilled and the rows that where to be indian and big-blue failed - so I essentially I have rows of switchgrass with lots of golden rod, marestail, ragweeds and all sorts of stuff mixed in. In the areas I didn't plant the grasses - mother nature simply did her thing after I turned and leveled the soil. These are both in areas that had previously been RR corn or RR beans so I was concerned about how depleted the seed bank would be......I had nothing to worry about. Now don't get me wrong - I don't have all the primo wildflowers and stuff like that, but it isn't just grass either.

My opinion is that your going to struggle turning pasture into cover without removing the existing pasture grasses AND the cows. I realize that may not be what you want to hear, but the pasture grasses create a lot of competition. The cows will eat whatever they want, so if they want to eat your tall grasses, they will. If they want to eat native weeds that come up...they will. The combination I fear would lead to a lot of frustration on your part. I understand the financial impact - so you may be best served to look into CRP type contracts that will pay you an annual rental rate for the land enrolled in the program. They have different ones and they can have various restrictions as well - so talk to a local FSA/NRCS folks and see what your options might be. I also know that pasture acres tend to limit how many head you have.... Its a balance and only you can determine what that balance needs to be. Most of us at the end of the day have bills to pay and mouths to feed. CRP was a decent solution for me, although it was limited, it was better than what I had.

 

[Tap]

Going "native" to reduce the workload is not really feasible IMHO. Years ago I decided to allow a large percentage of my property to revert to cover. It was mostly mowed hayfields when I bought it and after several years, I just stopped keeping it cut. Early on, those areas became mostly Goldenrod which became a real hot spot during the chase phase of the rut. Does would hide in it like rabbits to escape bothersome bucks.
Then, little by little, desirable species started showing up. Black and raspberry, crab apple, pokeweed, hawthorn, are among the food and cover that was naturally occurring. Deer were in it constantly.
But then came the undesirables...in the beginning it was grapevines out of control. Great cover, but they began to smother everything else.
Then came the Oriental Bittersweet, Privet and now the latest is Mile-A-Minute. None of these are native and they are consuming the trees and shrubs that I want. I still have great cover and deer do browse the undesirable stuff to some extent. But I battle the crap or it'll spread across my entire property and smother the valuable mast trees that I spent so much time and money to establish. I spend more time, money and chemicals fighting that stuff than you can imagine. And I'm slowly losing the battle. It would be far worse if I quit fighting, so I can't bring myself to stop. Someday I'll be too old to continue the fight and I'll have to surrender to the invaders.
So, my advice is that if you want to leave some areas to revert to a "natural" state, be aware that things you may not want will eventually move in. You might want to isolate those areas to be able to continue getting a machine in for maintenance and containment.

 

[yoderjac]

One key is maintaining early successional habitat as part of the picture. Fire is a great tool for that. You can delay the onset of a canopy for quite a while, but eventually nature cycles. A good plan will include multidecadal timbering rotation plan so that you have different section in different stages of succession. With this approach food plots become truly supplemental as they should be rather than a primary food source. It takes a lot of time to implement a broad habitat plan. Our food plots were an emergency room type intervention when we first bought the farm. It was a fast expanding program. As the big picture habitat plan is coming online, many food plots will slowly be converted to wildlife openings with permaculture (native or otherwise).

Thanks,

jack