Forest fires

[Bowsnbucks]

Rather than take up any more of Victor V.M.'s thread - controlled burns & others here.

About 8 years ago we had a big forest fire near my camp. It burned about 7000 acres. Dry woods, low rainfall, dead leaves all through the forest. A burn ban had been in place for about a month which included anyone wanting to burn paper or trash anywhere outside. No burning AT ALL. So …….. v v v

A woman living on the upwind side of the mountains in a valley decided she just couldn't stand the trash bags of waste paper sitting around, so she burned it all in a 55 gal. metal drum outside her house. Human stupidity started THAT fire. The State went after her in a lawsuit for all the damage and money spent fighting it.

Cigarette butts thrown out vehicle windows, camp fires by idiots, ignoring burn bans, neglect of power transmission equipment ( as in the case of several Cali forest fires ), are all examples of human causes. Lightning is nature and that's the way she works. MANY of these fires could have been prevented if brains were in working order. Controlled burns on smaller, regularly applied scales would certainly be helpful. The scale of the problem in Cali last year because of the 5 year drought was beyond - I believe - management by a few controlled burns.

S.T. Fanatic - I agree with you green forbs and grasses start to appear right after a fire, as do blueberries. They did here after the above fire I mentioned. But I don't think they would be "root-y" enough to hold soil on a steep slope after heavy rains. I think that capability comes with bigger shrubs and trees which don't grow overnight.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

Do forest fires kill big trees, or destroy the roots under ground, that would leave the soil weak?

 

[bigbendmarine]

Feel like I'm entering this one blind and maybe stepping into an unintended battle, but will just say that as North Florida goes controlled fires arent done on small scale "by a few controlled burns." They're done across GIANT timber holdings / are quite a sight / smoke things up fairly heavy around my place in spring... and definitely help keep bigger natural lightning strike summer fires mostly in check. Yes, every 15 years or so droughts still lead us to have some big ones too but that shouldn't negate the tremendous value WIDE SCALE controlled burns offer.

Green-nuts that push so far as to railing against controlled burns need to understand if man doesn't keep the fuel load in check, God sure will as part of His natural plan.

 

[ksgobbler]

5 million acres will burn in prescribed fires in Kansas this year. Most will burn the first 2 weeks of April.

 

[S.T.Fanatic]

Trees and shrubs actually do a poor job of holding soil. Grasses and forbs are far and away better.

The fact of the matter is fire has been suppressed for in many places over a hundred years. These forest fires are all terrible. Its even worse though that the burned off area will not be managed in the future and it will return right back to what allowed it to burn at such an intensity in the first place.

 

[Suburbhunter]

 

[ksgobbler]

View attachment 23039

My old Fire Management Officer hated smokey the bear.

This is a touchy subject. My degree is fire science but I am not a fire ecologist. After the Big Blowup of 1910 we declared all fire bad. The forest service had what they called the 10 am rule. That is they would have a fire out by 10 am the next day. If not by 10 am day 1 then by 10 am the next day. Fires back then were generally low intensity ground fires. They say 5 years of experience now is the equivalent of 15 years back then. Don't know if that is true or not.

Some fires are designed to be total stand replacement. Lodge pole pine is designed by Mother Nature to every 100-300 years burn out and be replaced by a whole new crop. However ponderosa pine for example had fire through it at regular intervals that were low intensity ground fires. It cleared out the small trees, and needles. Mature ponderosa pine should have 20-40 mature stems per acre. Using the Black Hills as an example there are places there that are upwards of 2000 stems per acre.

You can look at this state for an example. Historically there were a few oaks, cottonwoods, and cedars along creeks, rivers, and seeps. Fire kept the prairie treeless. There are more trees in KS right now than at any time in history. They tallgrass prairie is the most endangered ecosystem on the planet.

Another point look at how much of the forest service budget is for firefighting. They get very little for hazardous fuel reduction but a blank check is given for firefighting.

If you are snowed in find a PBS Nova special called "Firewars" and watch it. Also check out the book "Inferno by Committee".
I've got more to type but I am on my phone.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I didn't start this thread to pick fights or start battles - just have a discussion without taking up any more of Victor Van Meter's thread. No pissing contest.

The tall grass prairie is endangered. I can see that burns there where it's flat won't cause landslides like the steep hills in Cali if it rains. All I was pointing out is that after a prolonged drought like they had in Cali, even if they did burns - what holds the soil so they don't get landslides when rain does come ?? As has happened in Cali., they had fires - and a few weeks after those fires were put out, they got heavy rains. Then landslides all over the state. What grass, forbs, shrubs, or trees are going to "grow in" and be capable of holding that soil in a matter of only a few weeks ??

I believe controlled burns are needed in some instances for sure. But I'm looking at the steepness of those hillsides in Cali, and wondering if controlled burns there wouldn't possibly still cause landslides. They would certainly reduce the scale of a possible forest fire - but what then holds the soil on steep hillsides after those burns ?? Someone above said trees and shrubs don't hold soil well. I would submit that nothing is going to grow quickly enough to stabilize those hillsides in a few weeks time, such as they experienced between the fires ending and the heavy rains that followed. You gents on flat prairie or farmland wouldn't face that hillside collapse problem or rivers of mud washing away homes & businesses.

 

[JFK52]

I am hoping to do my 8th controlled burn on my 12 acre prairie in Portage county WI this spring. I use the UW-Stevens Point fire crew for my burns and have from the first one I did in 1994. This is an after school voluntary group of mostly Natural Resources majors who want actual hands on experience with controlled burns. They are an outstanding group to do burns. I have a written burn plan and follow all the stipulations. I have my Kubota on station with my 55 gallon sprayer filled with water for suppression use. The crew brings a 100 gallon portable trailer pumper on site. My land is absolutely flat. I disc my fire breaks much wider than required as a safety factor.
I assume all the responsibility when the first drip torch is lit. All burns have gone off without a hitch due to following the burn plan and preparation of the fire breaks. I have to get a special fire permit from the local DNR office for any burn over 1/4 acre. My prairie benefits greatly from a controlled burn every 4 or 5 years. One of the reasons I planted it where I did was so that I could burn it on a regular basis with the least risk involved.

 

[ksgobbler]

If you can get grasses to come back it would stabilize the hillsides. However with their fire season lasting as long as it does anymore I dont know that you could get me to light a torch. Here is one attempt
https://wildfiretoday.com/2018/11/07/major-damage-to-an-engine-on-a-prescribed-fire-in-california/

 

[IkemanTx]

The problem is that a 100 year timespan of fire suppression has reduced the understory growth, increased their stems per acre, and grown their fuel load to the point that when a fire does burn now, it is not the same kind of fire that historically burned in these areas before we decided to play god.

A more natural system would have many more shrubs and grasses in the understory whose root systems would survive a natural fire, prevent erosion, and assist in stabilizing the soils.

Those mountains are VERY young, geologically speaking. As such, landslides, mudslides, and rockslides are just as natural as forests and fires.


The answer isn’t to continue artificially suppressing fire in the system, the answer is for local residents and officials to understand the system they have moved into, the risks that come along with it, and to transition their forest and fire management to match historic natural conditions as much as possible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk