Fertilizing trees
- Thread starter buckdeer1
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yoderjac
5 year old buck +
I think there were some studies that showed no benefits from fertilizing mature oak trees. If they are native to your area, I wouldn't worry about it. Can't recall your location. The inability to access iron can be a pH issue. Leaves of the tree turn yellowish and have darker green along the veins like a skeleton.
A mature pin oak tree growing in soil that lacks iron (not acidic) or suffers other soil issues that prevent absorbtion by the tree, will suffer greatly and, over time, have limbs die and develop an unsightly appearance. To prevent iron chlorosis you might purchase eitherr of these products and treat following recommended approach. Over time, IC can kill a tree.
https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/severe_chlorosis_in_pin_oaks
https://forestry.usu.edu/trees-cities-towns/tree-care/causes-iron-chlorosis
Hi-Yield 32340 Iron Sulfate, 4 Lbs $16.
Ferti-Lome Chelated Liquid Iron and Other Micro Nutrients $16.89
Southern Ag Chelated Liquid Iron $13.66
https://www.canr.msu.edu/news/severe_chlorosis_in_pin_oaks
https://forestry.usu.edu/trees-cities-towns/tree-care/causes-iron-chlorosis
Hi-Yield 32340 Iron Sulfate, 4 Lbs $16.
Ferti-Lome Chelated Liquid Iron and Other Micro Nutrients $16.89
Southern Ag Chelated Liquid Iron $13.66
j-bird
Moderator
It's first going to depend on the species of oak....some simply like a heavier more clay based soil, while others prefer a coarse, drier soil. Pin oak seems to like a lot of water, chinkapin oaks prefer a coarse and drier soil. Some oaks are more tolerant of different types of soils while others...not so much. This is where planting a species that is adapted to your soil conditions can mean the difference between surviving and thriving.
As for the iron thing.....I'm in central Indiana.....I got more iron in my soil and water than I know what to do with. If it wasn't for my water softener....my tubs in the house would all be orange.....and they start out white!!!
As for the iron thing.....I'm in central Indiana.....I got more iron in my soil and water than I know what to do with. If it wasn't for my water softener....my tubs in the house would all be orange.....and they start out white!!!
Bill
Administrator
post a link to that cool fertilizer pvc pipe you use.
is great, fertilizing EARLY is even Fertilizing new or young trees is great greater!I encourage you to try one thing with one tree as a comparison ... even select the worst runt you have, or better yet, try this when you plant your next pear tree.
First, take a 3' or 4' piece of 3-inch pvc pipe and drill 7-10 holes in the pipe in a 2-3 inch wide section on one side of the pipe starting at 4" from the bottom of the pipe and extending to 8" from the bottom of the pipe. This is your water pipe; to be used ANY time you water the tree. When you plant the tree, plant the pipe 12-15 inches away from the tree with the holes in the pipe facing the root zone of the tree. DO NOT drive the pipe in the ground AFTER you plant the tree; it will fill with dirt as you drive it into the soil and defeat the purpose of the pipe. The beauty of a water pipe is the efficiency of watering (and fertilizing) a newly planted tree since all the water goes immediately to the root zone with none on top of the ground to run off. After planting the tree and water pipe, now put a 3X4 or 4X4 piece of landscape fabric under the tree with an inch of pea gravel on top of the fabric. The next step involves the use of straw bales that have been out in the weather for a couple of years; you can slice 2-3 inch "bricks" off of them quite easily. The straw bricks insulate the tree ... preserving moisture during the hottest part of the summer and protecting young roots during the coldest part of the winter. In addition, they extend the growing season by keeping the soil temperature higher during late fall and early winter. Now, place hardware cloth, chicken wire or something around the trunk (I also include black landscape pots with the bottom cut out) and a larger cage around the tree to protect from deer. A mild fertilizer solution (provided early in the spring) and frequent watering (through the pipe) during the first year produce amazing results regarding the growth of a newly planted tree. It's a little more work up front ...... BUT well worth it if you want strong, rapid growth from newly planted trees. Good luck!
P.S. If you use a water pipe make sure you feed a weaker fertilizer solution when you water during the first year; when I first developed the water pipe idea, I scorched a couple of oaks and chestnut trees with too hot a solution going directly to the root zone! You dump 4-5 gallons of H20 on a tree through a water pipe during tthe middle of July (deep saturation) and it should be good to go until mid-september unless you have the hottest, dryest, and most windy August on record!
yoderjac
5 year old buck +
Watering stakes have been around for a long time. There are a number of commercial versions available. Great for young fruit trees and the backyard orchard. For wildlife, if you are planting a few trees for attraction, perhaps you can afford to put a lot of work and care into a tree. I find that for wildlife permaculture, it is much more productive to select trees that fit your area and soils well and don't require maintenance. When using trees as food sources for wildlife, look for volume. That means lots of trees that don't need supplemental water or maintenance. Just my view. For a few trees, techniques like this are great.
Chainsaw
5 year old buck +
Oak seeds, thanks for the water pipe details. While I believe In planting lots of the right trees there are years when the extra fuss of the water pipe on key tree locations might apply here. And this would have been one of them here. This summer produced an inordinate number of days over 80 degrees and we had sooooo little rain. Could you explain how deep you put the pipe in the ground and is it different for apples and pears or oak trees for example?
Another benefit to mulch not mentioned at least for here, In the spring the mulch if spread thick enough can help keep the tree dormant a little longer thus giving it a better chance of avoiding frost or freeze damage to blossoms.
Another benefit to mulch not mentioned at least for here, In the spring the mulch if spread thick enough can help keep the tree dormant a little longer thus giving it a better chance of avoiding frost or freeze damage to blossoms.
j-bird
Moderator
I have considered a watering pipe like shown but never tried it...yet. I like the idea of adding them at planting vs trying to add them later and possibly damaging the roots of the tree. I tend to water for the first year or two and then the tree tends to be established enough to not require it.....but one never knows I guess...... Like was mentioned could be a great way to apply fertilizer as well.
IF you use "waste drain" PVC - it's a thinner wall and cheaper as well.....also for those who struggle a little bit in the math department... a 3" x 36" pipe will hold roughly 1 gallon of water....a 4" x 36" pipe will hold roughly 2 gallons of water.
IF you use "waste drain" PVC - it's a thinner wall and cheaper as well.....also for those who struggle a little bit in the math department... a 3" x 36" pipe will hold roughly 1 gallon of water....a 4" x 36" pipe will hold roughly 2 gallons of water.
Rit
5 year old buck +
That’s a good post right there. I have already put 30 fruit trees in but lost 3 this year due to water issues. I have about 40 more to go in and you can bet I will be adding these going forward. High efficiency watering at its best. I already spend an assload of time planting, caging, protecting, and spraying these trees I see no reason not to add one more small step.
You can buy plant mini-watering stakes for household plants or long/skinny watering stakes for trees; this info is from a web site offering one of the most popular. I included it to illustrate the superiority of using a plain ol 36-40" piece of 4" pvc pipe. Please read the underlined material in the quote about skinny water stakes; it explains why these probably wouldn't work well in the woods! You would be there for a while to get 2 gal. of water to the tree.
From the net ..... "Efficient and easy to use, these watering stakes promote strong root development by delivering water and fertilizer directly to tree roots. Water flows freely through the holes of the underground stake. Water isn’t lost to evaporation or run-off, and the deep saturation allows you to water for shorter periods. When tree fertilizer is placed in the shaft of the stake, water passes through the granules and carries nutrients directly to the tree roots. In addition, the stakes also aerate the surrounding soil with oxygen. Designed for use with a garden hose, flood irrigation, or in conjunction with your automatic landscape drip system, the durable stakes can be placed directly in the hole during planting or driven into the ground around an existing tree." Emphasis added
I use 3" and/or 4" std PVC and plant it 30-40 inches deep. As J-Bird so aptly pointed out, a 3' / 4"-dia pipe will handle a couple of gallons of H2o in a hurry. I frequently run 2 cat-litter jugs of water down a pipe .... well over 4 gallons in less than 100 seconds! Don't take my word for it; plant 2 trees (same species) 20' apart in similar/identical soil location and pipe one of them. I'v used pipes on oaks, chestnuts, and fruit trees; they all respond positively to adequate water and nutrients that hit the root zone in a flash. Report your results to us over the next couple of years. If you want healthy and fast tree growth, plant a pipe!
Find out who are the plumbers who service new construction (residential or commercial) in your town/area. I guarantee you they will have scraps and be more than willing to leave them by an unfinished driveway or next to a dumpster for you to gather. Don't forget to share a roll of deer sausage with them; pretty soon they will be calling you. I have a crew that takes 36+ inch scraps back to the shop where I collect it monthly.
Contact me or post up any questions you have and I'll try to be helpful. Good luck.
From the net ..... "Efficient and easy to use, these watering stakes promote strong root development by delivering water and fertilizer directly to tree roots. Water flows freely through the holes of the underground stake. Water isn’t lost to evaporation or run-off, and the deep saturation allows you to water for shorter periods. When tree fertilizer is placed in the shaft of the stake, water passes through the granules and carries nutrients directly to the tree roots. In addition, the stakes also aerate the surrounding soil with oxygen. Designed for use with a garden hose, flood irrigation, or in conjunction with your automatic landscape drip system, the durable stakes can be placed directly in the hole during planting or driven into the ground around an existing tree." Emphasis added
I use 3" and/or 4" std PVC and plant it 30-40 inches deep. As J-Bird so aptly pointed out, a 3' / 4"-dia pipe will handle a couple of gallons of H2o in a hurry. I frequently run 2 cat-litter jugs of water down a pipe .... well over 4 gallons in less than 100 seconds! Don't take my word for it; plant 2 trees (same species) 20' apart in similar/identical soil location and pipe one of them. I'v used pipes on oaks, chestnuts, and fruit trees; they all respond positively to adequate water and nutrients that hit the root zone in a flash. Report your results to us over the next couple of years. If you want healthy and fast tree growth, plant a pipe!
Find out who are the plumbers who service new construction (residential or commercial) in your town/area. I guarantee you they will have scraps and be more than willing to leave them by an unfinished driveway or next to a dumpster for you to gather. Don't forget to share a roll of deer sausage with them; pretty soon they will be calling you. I have a crew that takes 36+ inch scraps back to the shop where I collect it monthly.
Contact me or post up any questions you have and I'll try to be helpful. Good luck.
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2 pipes probably better then one; however, a single pipe will provide pretty good saturation of most of the root zone. Actually, you pose an empirical question that can be resolved by planting 10 trees in a row spaced 15' apart. Each alternating tree will receive 2 pipes; whereas, the other trees will receive only a single pipe. Performance will be measured on a yearly basis by tree height and trunk girth at 4.5'. Somebody please do the research .... how about it Rit?
Rit
5 year old buck +
I see what you did there. I may concede 2 trees in total. I will be planting 30 new trees in the Spring. Now that I think about it some of the trees will be the same species from the same vendor so something to chew on.
Troubles Trees
5 year old buck +
This is probably a rookie question but I will ask because I honestly don't know much about fertilizer. This PVC technique is to get water and fertilizer directly to the roots. Since Phosphorus(P) & Potassium(K) aren't "mobile in the soil" like Nitrogen(N) is, do the roots grow through the holes in the PVC to absorb them or do those fertilizers become more mobile in the soil when not applied on the soils surface?
And a 2nd question about fertilizer, if I mix miracle grow powder with water as directed do the Phosphorus & Potassium flow with the water to the roots or does it sit on the surface and only the Nitrogen flows with the water?
And a 2nd question about fertilizer, if I mix miracle grow powder with water as directed do the Phosphorus & Potassium flow with the water to the roots or does it sit on the surface and only the Nitrogen flows with the water?
This MSU (MSU Extension article is for farming; however, it does present some relevant info ..... https//wwwcanr.msu.edu/news/pros_and_cons_of_granular_and_liquid_fertilizers
Although there is no difference in the total amount of nutrients supplied by either granular or liquid fertilizer for a specified plant nutrient application, there are differences:
* Spatial: The distance from plant roots to fertilizer nutrients. Less mobile nutrients like phosphorus can’t get closer than the individual granule containing them. In liquid form, they are more mobile in the soil water solution.
In another article on nutrient uptake (using corn plants as an example) ..... https://www.360yieldcenter.com/2015...ies-part-1-nutrient-movement-and-root-uptake/
they note .... (Diffusion: During diffusion, roots grow throughout the profile and use up nutrients directly around the root system and the root hairs. As the concentration of nutrients around the root system drops, nutrients from higher concentrated areas move – or diffuse – toward low concentration areas and toward the roots. They only move a small distance, though. Potassium (K) and phosphorus (P) mostly move through diffusion.And, since P and K aren’t extremely mobile, it is important to have a high concentration of those nutrients throughout the soil, and to apply those nutrients as close to the root zone as possible." (emphasis added by me)
For those who really have a strong interest ... www.noble.org/news/publications/ag-news-and-views/2001/may/mind-your-ps-and-ks/
They say .... "Phosphorus and potassium fertilizers are very water-soluble. Approximately 95 percent becomes plant-available shortly after application. Does this mean that the plant will use all of the available phosphorus and potassium? No, the plant will absorb only 10 to 15 percent. The leftover phosphorus and potassium will begin to build in the soil."
Although there is no difference in the total amount of nutrients supplied by either granular or liquid fertilizer for a specified plant nutrient application, there are differences:
* Spatial: The distance from plant roots to fertilizer nutrients. Less mobile nutrients like phosphorus can’t get closer than the individual granule containing them. In liquid form, they are more mobile in the soil water solution.
In another article on nutrient uptake (using corn plants as an example) ..... https://www.360yieldcenter.com/2015...ies-part-1-nutrient-movement-and-root-uptake/
they note .... (Diffusion: During diffusion, roots grow throughout the profile and use up nutrients directly around the root system and the root hairs. As the concentration of nutrients around the root system drops, nutrients from higher concentrated areas move – or diffuse – toward low concentration areas and toward the roots. They only move a small distance, though. Potassium (K) and phosphorus (P) mostly move through diffusion.And, since P and K aren’t extremely mobile, it is important to have a high concentration of those nutrients throughout the soil, and to apply those nutrients as close to the root zone as possible." (emphasis added by me)
For those who really have a strong interest ... www.noble.org/news/publications/ag-news-and-views/2001/may/mind-your-ps-and-ks/
They say .... "Phosphorus and potassium fertilizers are very water-soluble. Approximately 95 percent becomes plant-available shortly after application. Does this mean that the plant will use all of the available phosphorus and potassium? No, the plant will absorb only 10 to 15 percent. The leftover phosphorus and potassium will begin to build in the soil."
Tree Spud
5 year old buck +
Interesting ... looks like a bodybuilding approach ... supplementing natural growth, stress, and root system development with accelerated addition of water & nutrients.
Also notice you have no landscape fabric which is huge to soil moisture development & retention. I do water 1st year trees at least once a week until fall. Have stayed away from adding fertilizer 1st year.
I am always more focused on early years root growth vs rapid above soil growth. As the long term success of any tree is it's root system development, curious what happens to the tree when the roots do not have to naturally seep & creep to build a root system because of supplemental support.
What is sustainability after you stop early supplemental support? How do you balance water/nutrient addition on only one side of root system?
Actually, I use a variety of surface coverings to preserve/protect moisture including landscape fabric with pea gravel (see attached pictures of oak, chestnut, and pear trees with fabric/gravel). I also use leaf mulch and wood chip mulch and for some trees, I use what I call straw bricks. Often, I put one of the mulches on top of a pea gravel/landscape combination. With all due respect, I don't believe a water pipe is limited to saturating only the half side of the root zone where the pipe is located; if the pipe is within 15-20 inches of the young tree and you shoot 5-7 gallons of water down the pipe, I'm betting you will achieve saturation of 65-75% of the root zone through dispersion. Over time, it seems likely you will develop a greater rroot mass on the side of the tree where the pipe is located because, as the roots grow outward, the non-pipe side of the tree will be further and further away from the water source. By that time, the tree should be well on its own. Thanks for your comments and the bodybuilding metaphor.
Attachments
Here's what I posted on another thread about water pipes and competition .... landscape fabric covered with a mulch (gravel or wood, etc) reduces competition and eliminates a home for mice.
"One additional observation about water pipes concerns competition. Even though I use landscape fabric , pea gravel and mulch on most of my tree plantings - even with a pipe - I suspect it would not be necessary with respect to competition. Since grass, and most weeds have root structures much higher in the soil column than oaks or chestnuts, they grab water and nutrients before they drain down to the bulk of oak tree roots. Again, with the water pipe, you inject water and food directly into the root zone; bypassing the roots of competitive plants. Just a thought."
"One additional observation about water pipes concerns competition. Even though I use landscape fabric , pea gravel and mulch on most of my tree plantings - even with a pipe - I suspect it would not be necessary with respect to competition. Since grass, and most weeds have root structures much higher in the soil column than oaks or chestnuts, they grab water and nutrients before they drain down to the bulk of oak tree roots. Again, with the water pipe, you inject water and food directly into the root zone; bypassing the roots of competitive plants. Just a thought."
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