Fertilizing for perennial legumes, Brassicas, and cereal grains

[Maddog66]

I’m planting the following blend in a few weeks. My soil test for establishing clover shows PH and P at optimum levels, no nitrogen needed, and VERY LOW K. Fertilizer recommendation is 0 Nitrogen, 50# P2O5, and 285# of K20 (ph=6.5, OM = 5.5)

* this spring I also hit it with a ton per acre of AG lime.

But in my blend are also a few nitrogen-loving plants that could / should be hit with nitrogen after germination..

Should I do that? Any critiques?

50# Cereal grain
10# white clover blend
2# forage alfalfa
2# chicory
2# brassica blend

 

[Wild Thing]

That does look a little surprising since both the cereal grain and brassicas utilize N. Did you list your previous crop as a legume on your soil sample? If so, you would already have some N fixed in your soil. Caveat there is that you are planting a perennial clover plot which won't use any N and with only 2# of brassicas not much would be needed for them...and the cereal grains are only being included as a nurse crop so - no big deal there either.

I don't think I would worry about buying N fertilizer either - not that big of a deal for what you are planting.

 

[Maddog66]

For the past 10+ years it’s been a mixed clover / hay field……so I didn’t submit that there was a previous crop on my clover-based test.

The earlier corn & brassica-establishment soil test I also had done on the same ground came back with the same soil numbers except it called for spreading 100# N, 0#P, and 45#k.

My goal is to have nice perennials next spring, and some brassicas & grain sprinkled in for this fall.

Do you think I can hurt the perennial establishment this fall if I top dress after germination with nitrogen to feed the brassicas?

 

[Wild Thing]

No - It won’t hurt the clovers to apply some N.

 

[Crimson n' Camo]

I would take into consideration the size of the field and the deer density.......basically total yield produced versus total yield needed to tolerate the browsing pressure......If you arent careful hitting cereal grains with a lot of nitrogen it will overwhelm your clovers next spring when it matures and smother it out.....been there done that. Also it would depend which cereal grain you're planting. Cereal rye does a whole lot better in low nitrogen situations than does wheat.

 

[Maddog66]

A little under 4 acres with a low deer population. But no other plots or agriculture, other than hay, for about a mile. Lots of baiting and feeding.

I’m still a little torn on the cereal grains. Which one(s) and how much. You think 50# is too much whether it’s Oats, WW, WR, or a combo?

 

[FarmerDan]

Me? I wouldn't bother with the nitrogen. I have a friend who I would not be able to stop. His cure for everything is more nitrogen. If we do or if we don't doesn't seem to affect the deer harvest. Not to put too fine a point on it, I think you run some risk of forcing new growth when you don't need to be forcing new growth - not to put too fine a point on it. It's a seasonal thing. And it being that, the limiting factor(s) in the fall probably isn't going to be nitrogen. You already have some in the soil. How much is an unknown. Then there's the price of nitrogen this year. Cereal grains 50#? Is that the question above? It would be plenty. Wheat, rye, or oats? Each has it's appeal.

 

[yoderjac]

I have NEVER intentionally added commercial N even back when I was doing traditional tillage and fertilizing. After enough years of min-till/no-till, I'm not using any fertilizer at all now. Keep in mind that most soil tests don't test for N, and therefore fertilizer recommendations only consider the "needs" of the plants. At least with P & K they are measuring what you have in the soil. They are intended for farmers who plant monocultures and want to maximize yield. A smart mix of compatible crops and/or rotations go a long way. Stopping the traditional deep and frequent tillage can, over time, help restore soil health and eliminate the need for commercial fertilizer for food plots completely.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

How important is large bulbs? If not very, skip the N.

 

[yoderjac]

How important is large bulbs? If not very, skip the N.

I find bulb size much more related to growing season length than fertilization when brassica is planted at 2 lbs/ac or less as a component in a mix.

 

[Maddog66]

Thanks all very much. I’m going to go with the clover establishment (and your) recommendation and skip the Nitrogen. Heck, I’ve seen brassicas planted along new bulldozed trails that got 4’ tall and huge bulbs with no fertilizer at all…..so I should be ok.

Plus 285# of K isn’t going to come cheap!! 0-0-62 is $30 a bag……and each 50# bag is about 30# of K……which means I need about 10 bags per acre. Plus 50 pounds of Phosphorous.

Does around $350 in fertilizer, per acre, sound reasonable in 2022?

 

[FarmerDan]

Thanks all very much. I’m going to go with the clover establishment (and your) recommendation and skip the Nitrogen. Heck, I’ve seen brassicas planted along new bulldozed trails that got 4’ tall and huge bulbs with no fertilizer at all…..so I should be ok.

Plus 285# of K isn’t going to come cheap!! 0-0-62 is $30 a bag……and each 50# bag is about 30# of K……which means I need about 10 bags per acre. Plus 50 pounds of Phosphorous.

Does around $350 in fertilizer, per acre, sound reasonable in 2022?

Your soil test would give you an estimate of the available P & K in your soil - lbs/acre or parts per million (ppm). The recommend fertilizer amounts are just that - recommendations. Given today's fertilizer prices, me, I might only do a third to half of the recommendation now. But I'd still like to know the the answer to my previous question. AND to be a little backsided about it about your soil sampling procedure? How deep? Shoveled? Tubed? Sometime I think we get "bad" results because of a bad collection.

 

[Wild Thing]

Thanks all very much. I’m going to go with the clover establishment (and your) recommendation and skip the Nitrogen. Heck, I’ve seen brassicas planted along new bulldozed trails that got 4’ tall and huge bulbs with no fertilizer at all…..so I should be ok.

Plus 285# of K isn’t going to come cheap!! 0-0-62 is $30 a bag……and each 50# bag is about 30# of K……which means I need about 10 bags per acre. Plus 50 pounds of Phosphorous.

Does around $350 in fertilizer, per acre, sound reasonable in 2022?

In you first post you said:

Fertilizer recommendation is 0 Nitrogen, 50# P2O5, and 285# of K20 (ph=6.5, OM = 5.5)

Are you sure your soil test recommendation is for 285# of ACTUAL K or did they recommend 285# of K fertilizer (0-0-60 or 0-0-62)? I have seen soil test reports use both recommendations and there is a big difference. If I saw those recommendations on my soil test report I would think it would mean just that - 50# of P205 fertilizer and 285# of K2O fertilizer. You may want to check with the lab that did your soil test and confirm one way or the other.

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks all very much. I’m going to go with the clover establishment (and your) recommendation and skip the Nitrogen. Heck, I’ve seen brassicas planted along new bulldozed trails that got 4’ tall and huge bulbs with no fertilizer at all…..so I should be ok.

Plus 285# of K isn’t going to come cheap!! 0-0-62 is $30 a bag……and each 50# bag is about 30# of K……which means I need about 10 bags per acre. Plus 50 pounds of Phosphorous.

Does around $350 in fertilizer, per acre, sound reasonable in 2022?

No, but most costs don't seem reasonable to me in 2022. When Farmer Dan says they are just "Recommendations", he isn't kidding. Back when I first started messing with this stuff, I was really confused with fertilizer recommendations. One year, I sent soil samples to VT for analysis and got both the analysis and fertilizer recommendations. I then took the analysis and gave it to several different agronomy folks that do fertilizer recommendations. Everyone gave me a different recommendation!

First, these recommendations are intended for farmers with different objectives that food plotters, and even for them, it seems as much art as science.

Back in 2015/2016 when I was last doing traditional tillage with high inputs, I was using MAP to achieve my P requirements (it does have a small percentage of N in it) and Potash to achieve my K requirements. For fertilizing 7 acres my bill was around $1,000 a year. I never use urea or tried to intentionally achieve any N recommendations.

Now, using T&M and min-till/no-till techniques, my fertilizer bill is $0. My food plots and my deer are just as happy!

Given that history, $350/ac does not sound reasonable to me for food plot fertilizer. I'm still evolving when it comes to this stuff as I add weed tolerance and permaculture into the mix for managing for deer, turkey, and wildlife in general.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Maddog66]

My soil tests are from UW Wi and it says “nutrients to apply - # per acre” (0, 45, 285).

Test result: P =16ppm, K=13ppm, Ca = 1648ppm, Mg= 102ppm, Est Cec=11ppm

As far as my sampling procedure, I bought a tube and followed the collection procedure the lab provided to a T. Twice. I went 5” deep and “averaged” all of my individual samples (appx 25) in a bucket….and sent one sample in.

Since these are my first plot(s)on new land that’s never been plotted, and every single thing I’ve read says to NEVER skimp on fertilizer or lime, I was going to go with the full rate. But if I can do just as well with maybe 1/2 this year and 1/2 next spring, I’d definitely do that.

PS. I definitely want to move toward less intensive tillage and input practices but this being a new start on a long term mediocre hay field, I thought I should do the deep till, lime, and fertilizer to get my clover off to a good start…..then use the established clover beginning next year for a rotation plan.

Am I going about it wrong?

 

[yoderjac]

My soil tests are from UW Wi and it says “nutrients to apply - # per acre” (0, 45, 285).

Test result: P =16ppm, K=13ppm, Ca = 1648ppm, Mg= 102ppm, Est Cec=11ppm

As far as my sampling procedure, I bought a tube and followed the collection procedure the lab provided to a T. Twice. I went 5” deep and “averaged” all of my individual samples (appx 25) in a bucket….and sent one sample in.

Since these are my first plot(s)on new land that’s never been plotted, and every single thing I’ve read says to NEVER skimp on fertilizer or lime, I was going to go with the full rate. But if I can do just as well with maybe 1/2 this year and 1/2 next spring, I’d definitely do that.

PS. I definitely want to move toward less intensive tillage and input practices but this being a new start on a long term mediocre hay field, I thought I should do the deep till, lime, and fertilizer to get my clover off to a good start…..then use the established clover beginning next year for a rotation plan.

Am I going about it wrong?

I set myself back a long way by starting it deep tillage. An old hay field probably had lots of good OM before the deep tillage. Keep in mind that highly fertile soil seem to be able to take tillage abuse much better than marginal soils. How much it set you back on the trip to no-till will likely depend on your soil.

Tillage introduce O2 into the soil which causes OM to burn much faster. It also destroys the natural soil tilth. Ray's videos on this page are a good start to understanding the principles: https://vimeo.com/channels/raythesoilguy. Watch the short infiltration video first.

Best of luck on your journey!

 

[Maddog66]

I must have pretty good soil because the 84 day corn my farmer planted this spring (no till) is looking great….with no inputs at all so far. Point being I hope I didn’t do any long term damage by having him disc it about 6” deep for me.

Either way, I guess the deed is done already.

My OM was 5.5 before tillage…is that good or bad? I’ll have it checked again in ‘23.

I think I’ll go with 1/2 rate this fall.

 

[yoderjac]

I must have pretty good soil because the 84 day corn my farmer planted this spring (no till) is looking great….with no inputs at all so far. Point being I hope I didn’t do any long term damage by having him disc it about 6” deep for me.

Either way, I guess the deed is done already.

My OM was 5.5 before tillage…is that good or bad? I’ll have it checked again in ‘23.

I think I’ll go with 1/2 rate this fall.

Yep, you've got much better soil than me.

 

[FarmerDan]

My soil tests are from UW Wi and it says “nutrients to apply - # per acre” (0, 45, 285).

Test result: P =16ppm, K=13ppm, Ca = 1648ppm, Mg= 102ppm, Est Cec=11ppm

Wow! I don't think I've ever seen soil with that little potassium. P ain't so hot either. I think you need to rethink your plan.

 

[Maddog66]

So…..I spoke with my friend this morning who runs the local feed/seed store. He’s not an agronomist but said I should go with 200# / acre of 5-14-42.

Is that in line with what you’re thinking Dan?