Failed Persimonn Graft

TreesuitSC

5 year old buck +
First time trying persimonn grafting last year. Epic fail.

I am amazed at the growth. You can see the failed graft on right and the new growth that started on left.

My question is can I cut it off below the Y (fork) and try again?

8650.jpeg
 
Yes, you absolutely can. Hopefully it will work for you this time.

Did the scion grow for a while and then die? Did you start with scion wood about the size of a pencil?
 
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Yes, you absolutely can. Hopefully it will work for you this time.

Did the scion grow for a while and then die? Did you start with scion wood about the size of a pencil?
The scion didn’t grow at all. I think I started the grafting process to soon. Don’t think the sap had started to flow.
 
Maybe it’s just an optical illusion, but your scion looks extremely big to me. Next time try a scion about the size of a pencil. And yes, make sure the sap is flowing well. Good luck.
 
First time trying persimonn grafting last year. Epic fail.

I am amazed at the growth. You can see the failed graft on right and the new growth that started on left.

My question is can I cut it off below the Y (fork) and try again?

View attachment 33875

Here is what I would do and why, but I'm making some assumptions so let me know if they are wrong:

1) Below the V is 3" - 4" diameter or more.
2) You tried to graft one side of the V and left the other original.
3) You use a bark graft since you mentioned having the sap running.

So, here are my thoughts as to why the graft failed and how to proceed:

A persimmon wants to push natural growth before pushing a graft. Leaving one side of the V natural gave the tree a place to put the energy. It is a bit hard to tell from the picture, but it looks to me like a single water sprout formed immediately below the graft and replaced the right side of the V by growing around the graft and the damaged area of the graft died. Bark grafting too early before the sap is running could be another cause for failure.

If my assumptions are correct, I would cut off the right side of the V just below the bottom of the new growth now and seal it with laytex paint or a grafting sealant. Wait until you have leaves at least the size of squirrel ears (bigger won't hurt), then bark graft again. I would cut the lateral branch growing to the left of the V off and cut the left side of the V at about the same height as you did the right last year. The reason I would not cut below the V is the size of the wound is pretty large. I've found more failures when bark grafting trees over 3" than in the 1"-3" class. I think this is largely due to the size of the wound when cutting the tree down. A scion my even take and grow, but disease or insect damage to that wound seems to happen over time. I have not seen this with smaller wounds. That is not to say that I have not seen some success in grafting trees over 3". I would also bark graft at least 2 scions. Just put them on opposite sides of the trunk. I like to wrap my scions in parafilm-M. It thins as it stretches. It helps keeping the scion from drying out while it is waiting to take. Buds can easily push through the parafilm. I like to cut the top of the scion off at an angle above a good bud (like in pruning) placed to the outside of the tree. I don't leave terminal buds on the scion and I don't want more than a couple buds on the scion. As Native says, pencil size is a good diameter to target, but I've had success with scions a bit smaller and a bit larger as well. Last year's growth makes good scions.

With many grafting techniques, cambium alignment is key but bark grafting is different. With bark grafting good pressure is important to keep the bark peel held tightly against the back of the scion. I also like to make a slight angled cut on the back side of the scion (away from the tree) in addition to the normal angled cut on the front. The one on the back is small near the bottom. The reason is simply to expose a little bit of scion cambium to the inside of the bark peel. Electrical tape stretches a bit and works well for bark grafting persimmons. Make sure you don't touch the inside of the bark peel or the inserted portion of the scion with your hands prior to insertion. Below the graft, tape a bamboo stick or fiberglass rod as a stake to the trunk and point it upward, the way you want the scion to grow. It should be a couple feet taller than the scion. Birds will land on it instead of the scion. Movement of the scion once grafted can be a problem.

The next step is more important than most folks think. Each week after grafting, go check the tree. Remove any water sprouts coming from the trunk below the graft. The tree will favor these over the graft if they are not removed every week or two. By removing them it focuses the energy into the scion. As the scion grows , very loosely tie it to the stake. They grow so fast they can't support themselves when green. You want the scion to move some in the wind but grow upright in general. Once it hardens off the first winter you can remove the stake. At that time you should select your best one if both scions took. It is ok to let them both grow during that first year as there is more energy from the established root system than they can use, but remove one of them. If you leave them both you are creating a bad crotch angle that will eventually become a problem.

Hope this helps,

Jack
 
What Jack said. Aftercare, in the way of keeping rootstock shoots below the graft rubbed off - at least 1-2X/week is probably THE most important part of grafting persimmons. If you leave any growth above your graft, or allow shoots from below to get above the scion... you can count on the tree channeling resources to its 'own' tissue, with the graft declining or failing outright.
 
Here is what I would do and why, but I'm making some assumptions so let me know if they are wrong:

1) Below the V is 3" - 4" diameter or more.
2) You tried to graft one side of the V and left the other original.
3) You use a bark graft since you mentioned having the sap running.

So, here are my thoughts as to why the graft failed and how to proceed:

A persimmon wants to push natural growth before pushing a graft. Leaving one side of the V natural gave the tree a place to put the energy. It is a bit hard to tell from the picture, but it looks to me like a single water sprout formed immediately below the graft and replaced the right side of the V by growing around the graft and the damaged area of the graft died. Bark grafting too early before the sap is running could be another cause for failure.

If my assumptions are correct, I would cut off the right side of the V just below the bottom of the new growth now and seal it with laytex paint or a grafting sealant. Wait until you have leaves at least the size of squirrel ears (bigger won't hurt), then bark graft again. I would cut the lateral branch growing to the left of the V off and cut the left side of the V at about the same height as you did the right last year. The reason I would not cut below the V is the size of the wound is pretty large. I've found more failures when bark grafting trees over 3" than in the 1"-3" class. I think this is largely due to the size of the wound when cutting the tree down. A scion my even take and grow, but disease or insect damage to that wound seems to happen over time. I have not seen this with smaller wounds. That is not to say that I have not seen some success in grafting trees over 3". I would also bark graft at least 2 scions. Just put them on opposite sides of the trunk. I like to wrap my scions in parafilm-M. It thins as it stretches. It helps keeping the scion from drying out while it is waiting to take. Buds can easily push through the parafilm. I like to cut the top of the scion off at an angle above a good bud (like in pruning) placed to the outside of the tree. I don't leave terminal buds on the scion and I don't want more than a couple buds on the scion. As Native says, pencil size is a good diameter to target, but I've had success with scions a bit smaller and a bit larger as well. Last year's growth makes good scions.

With many grafting techniques, cambium alignment is key but bark grafting is different. With bark grafting good pressure is important to keep the bark peel held tightly against the back of the scion. I also like to make a slight angled cut on the back side of the scion (away from the tree) in addition to the normal angled cut on the front. The one on the back is small near the bottom. The reason is simply to expose a little bit of scion cambium to the inside of the bark peel. Electrical tape stretches a bit and works well for bark grafting persimmons. Make sure you don't touch the inside of the bark peel or the inserted portion of the scion with your hands prior to insertion. Below the graft, tape a bamboo stick or fiberglass rod as a stake to the trunk and point it upward, the way you want the scion to grow. It should be a couple feet taller than the scion. Birds will land on it instead of the scion. Movement of the scion once grafted can be a problem.

The next step is more important than most folks think. Each week after grafting, go check the tree. Remove any water sprouts coming from the trunk below the graft. The tree will favor these over the graft if they are not removed every week or two. By removing them it focuses the energy into the scion. As the scion grows , very loosely tie it to the stake. They grow so fast they can't support themselves when green. You want the scion to move some in the wind but grow upright in general. Once it hardens off the first winter you can remove the stake. At that time you should select your best one if both scions took. It is ok to let them both grow during that first year as there is more energy from the established root system than they can use, but remove one of them. If you leave them both you are creating a bad crotch angle that will eventually become a problem.

Hope this helps,

Jack
Jack,

I have a question about grafting persimmons and thought of you. I believe this is the most appropriate thread to ask it in, but I was about 1 click away from starting a new one. This is the question: Can I use whip-n-tongue grafts on a young seedling American persimmon? I noticed that you accepted the notion of bark grafting in your reply above and I believe you've stated that you have topworked an awful lot of wild persimmons. Probably you used bark or cleft grafts for many of those. Have you found the best type of graft for persimmons?

The reason I ask is because I have a number of young persimmon seedlings which I intend to graft this spring. I also had a chance experience at a recent hunting show that has puzzled me. I spoke to a young tree nursery owner about his trees. He mentioned having extremely high failure rate of his whip and tongue grafting efforts last year. Furthermore, based on good success of several trial chip grafts last year, he'll switching to only using chip grafting this year. This is all in the context of seedling American persimmon rootstock with female Meader scion. I know that apples are easier to graft and more forgiving of novice mistakes than other trees. I've dabbled with grafting apples for several years (cleft and bark) with decent success, but finally tried Whip and Tongue grafting for the first time last year and found that it worked very well for me.

Thank you,
~benjamin
 
First persimmons I ever grafted, I just did simple whip (not even W&T) grafts... just like I'd taught myself to do with apples. Got 100% takes.
No one had told me at that time that persimmons are hard to graft (they're not!). Anymore, I do 90% simple bark grafts for everything from pears to persimmons to pecans and oaks.
But, Jack hit on perhaps THE most important thing... you've gotta religiously rub off any shoots below your graft, because persimmon wants to push its own growth, at the expense of the scion you grafted on.
 
Jack,

I have a question about grafting persimmons and thought of you. I believe this is the most appropriate thread to ask it in, but I was about 1 click away from starting a new one. This is the question: Can I use whip-n-tongue grafts on a young seedling American persimmon? I noticed that you accepted the notion of bark grafting in your reply above and I believe you've stated that you have topworked an awful lot of wild persimmons. Probably you used bark or cleft grafts for many of those. Have you found the best type of graft for persimmons?

The reason I ask is because I have a number of young persimmon seedlings which I intend to graft this spring. I also had a chance experience at a recent hunting show that has puzzled me. I spoke to a young tree nursery owner about his trees. He mentioned having extremely high failure rate of his whip and tongue grafting efforts last year. Furthermore, based on good success of several trial chip grafts last year, he'll switching to only using chip grafting this year. This is all in the context of seedling American persimmon rootstock with female Meader scion. I know that apples are easier to graft and more forgiving of novice mistakes than other trees. I've dabbled with grafting apples for several years (cleft and bark) with decent success, but finally tried Whip and Tongue grafting for the first time last year and found that it worked very well for me.

Thank you,
~benjamin

Ben,

Here are my thoughts. I have plenty of native persimmons on my land. I find the best method for those is to just let them grow, daylighting them when possible when they are young. I wait until they are at least 1" in diameter and then bark graft. Why? By the time they are 1" in diameter, they have a very well developed root system. I can bark graft 2 scions, one to each side. This doubles my chance of success. If both grafts take, I keep the best and cull the other when the tree goes dormant. One key to getting the bark grafts to take is to remove any water sprouts that develop each week. But, if both grafts fail, I just select 1 water sprout, just below the graft and let it form a new central leader removing other water sprouts. Because of the large root system, I can try again the next year. You can either W&T the water sprout or cut down the tree just below the water sprout and bark graft again.

Other kinds of field grafts do work. I've seen cleft grafts work. One reason I prefer bark grafts is because they are more forgiving. They don't require cambium alignment but can benefit from it. If you are careful and shave the outer bark of the scion on the sides exposing the cambium and cut the slot in the trunk precisely, you can get both cambium alignment on the sides as well as the exposed cambium cells on the flap. With a W&T you need to ensure good cambium alignment. I find that easier on apples than persimmons.

Now, I have grown persimmons from seed in rootmakers. I experimented with grafting them in containers. I used W&T, Z, V, and other grafts. The bark is too thin to graft these small seedlings. I had a lot more failures, but I did have some success with these. Not close to bark grafting. Having done that, I found that in the long-run, there is no advantage to grafting them as young seedlings rather than planting them in the field, waiting until they hit 1" in diameter or more and then bark grafting. Those I grafted at seedlings were no more vigorous and produced not more fruit and did not fruit earlier than those left alone and eventually bark grafted.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Thank you for that answer. Someday I hope to be experienced enough to know how to match grafting method to the species, rootstock and scion on hand.

Do you have any experience grafting asian persimmon scion onto American rootstock?

Thanks,
~benjamin
 
First persimmons I ever grafted, I just did simple whip (not even W&T) grafts... just like I'd taught myself to do with apples. Got 100% takes.
No one had told me at that time that persimmons are hard to graft (they're not!). Anymore, I do 90% simple bark grafts for everything from pears to persimmons to pecans and oaks.
But, Jack hit on perhaps THE most important thing... you've gotta religiously rub off any shoots below your graft, because persimmon wants to push its own growth, at the expense of the scion you grafted on.
Thank you, Lucky P, for the additional tips. I will treat persimmons like the learning experience apples were, which is to try different methods while learning to be more precise and exact.
 
Thank you for that answer. Someday I hope to be experienced enough to know how to match grafting method to the species, rootstock and scion on hand.

Do you have any experience grafting asian persimmon scion onto American rootstock?

Thanks,
~benjamin

Yes, all of my rootstock has been American. All of my scions have been American except for one hybrid (VxK) known as Nikita's Gift. Oriental persimmons don't fall from the tree making them a poor choice for deer. Some are astringent and some are not. Astringency protects persimmons from climbing animals until they are ripe. All American persimmons are astringent.

The hybrid is Kaki, not Lotus. I know others have grafted both Lotus and Kaki onto American rootstock. I don't have any personal experience since my persimmons are all for deer. The only reason I experimented with Nikita's give is that there were come reports that it did fall from the tree. My experience is that it does not. It seems to grow in more of a bush form than central leader tree form for me.

Thanks,

Jack
 
I have a growing number of young sapling persimmons for wildlife. I also planted several near my house and inside the fenced orchard area which I intend to graft to Asian varieties. I'm barely 2 miles inside the strange 5b zone in central Ohio and I disagree with the USDA's classification of this area. On most mornings in the fall, winter and spring, as I drive into zone 6a (dropping 200 feet of elevation) the temperature drops several degrees. Last week was the most extreme case, where -3 degrees at my Zone 5B house dropped to -18 degrees over there in Zone 6a. Anyway, I'd like persimmons but most asian varieties are rated to Zone 7 and occasionally to 6.
 
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