Converting Invasive Thicket to Switch...

[tynimiller]

So going to yield to all of you as when it comes to switchgrass I've never messed with the stuff. I knew when I bought my place few years back bush honeysuckle and oriental bittersweet were a massive issue. Well finally yesterday started the process with our state's district forester and balls are rolling to qualify for EQIP assistance in covering up to 70% of the cost for a professional forester come out and treat the entire property.

HOWEVER, while I despise the amount of BH present on the landscape, it is providing a lot of visual cover presently and I had an idea to be proactive prior to the likely 2024 treatment contract occurring (guess process takes a while).
Two different areas, with the Western one being very thick with BH at like 85% of it, I've thought about having a buddy of mine with a dozer come and completely clear the areas - leaving only any select native hardwoods or any mature cedars which if mowed around may survive burnings in future. Of note I believe if memory serves there are less than twelve oaks and cedars I would deem doing this for. The thought behind this would be to get switchgrass plantings going here and while 2024 will see some cover (bad invasive kind) loss I'd at least have one or two of these spots starting to thicken up into about 6-7 total acres of switchgrass cover.

So for those with switchgrass experience....does this sound like a viable thing to even attempt? Dozer would hit this late winter before any type of thaw would be happening.

I don't have a drill, so it would be all broadcasted for note.

One of my questions also would be so if I have this area dozed, the pile of bush honeysuckle and scrub saplings would end up quite significant....I would assume a burn pile of this stuff would absolutely scorch the ground there making any kind of switchgrass growth nearly impossible for a few years or no?

Fully admitting true ignorance of first hand experiences with switchgrass...have read tons of threads, books, handouts, watched videos, walked a ton of it and even recommended it to others on their places...just never messed with it myself.

 

[tynimiller]

Forgot to mention, the two areas set up quite well for burn protection in the future. The black outlines would be trails I keep which can be disced at burnings for containment, the green would be clover type food trail edges and the blue is actually edge of where my long pond which always has water in it and would clearly act as safe burn edge there. The "blueish" area in the right red zone (red zones are areas to be dozed possibly) is a spot I actually frost seed a seed group with some little and big bluestem. Quite a bit of little blue stem is growing in that area.

 

[Brian662]

A couple things to note before you start.

The BH fruit (berries) are in the soil and dozing is a short term management strategy. You may be able to set back the BH with occasional burning of your switchgrass, but I expect the BH to compete very will with switch. This is just my opinion, I don't have experience with the two in combination. I do have a property with BH and have successfully planted ~15 acres of switch on multiple properties using different methods.

You absolutely will get BH regrowth immediately after dozing (same year), I would assume that if you plan to mow the young switch, this may also keep the BH regrowth under control.

Do you know what was in the area before the BH took over? Answering this question may help with your management goals. Monoculture switchgrass may not be the best thing depending on your goals. You may have a seed bed ready to take off with other beneficial native plants, but you need to get the BH under control so the sunlight hits the soil.

I dont think burning brush will render the soil incapable of growing switchgrass.

 

[tynimiller]

A couple things to note before you start.

The BH fruit (berries) are in the soil and dozing is a short term management strategy. You may be able to set back the BH with occasional burning of your switchgrass, but I expect the BH to compete very will with switch. This is just my opinion, I don't have experience with the two in combination. I do have a property with BH and have successfully planted ~15 acres of switch on multiple properties using different methods.

You absolutely will get BH regrowth immediately after dozing (same year), I would assume that if you plan to mow the young switch, this may also keep the BH regrowth under control.

Do you know what was in the area before the BH took over? Answering this question may help with your management goals. Monoculture switchgrass may not be the best thing depending on your goals. You may have a seed bed ready to take off with other beneficial native plants, but you need to get the BH under control so the sunlight hits the soil.

I dont think burning brush will render the soil incapable of growing switchgrass.

Appreciate the feed back, I'll work through your questions:

Yea, any resprouted bush honey suckle I fear would need isolated backpack attacking this year to a degree and I know everyone says the plant cannot live through fire...but as you know the fruit/seed is the issue even if you kill the plant.

The areas have been fallow for a long time...one last crop was around 2005 and this area has the most density of BH, mixture of cedars and some cottonwood/poplars also in there. The other spot was still around 2007 or 2009 last time cropped it looked like. This area has in some of it much better soils and trees and nature has reclaimed it much quicker and would require a little more intense clearing job.

 

[tynimiller]

A couple things to note before you start.

The BH fruit (berries) are in the soil and dozing is a short term management strategy. You may be able to set back the BH with occasional burning of your switchgrass, but I expect the BH to compete very will with switch. This is just my opinion, I don't have experience with the two in combination. I do have a property with BH and have successfully planted ~15 acres of switch on multiple properties using different methods.

You absolutely will get BH regrowth immediately after dozing (same year), I would assume that if you plan to mow the young switch, this may also keep the BH regrowth under control.

Do you know what was in the area before the BH took over? Answering this question may help with your management goals. Monoculture switchgrass may not be the best thing depending on your goals. You may have a seed bed ready to take off with other beneficial native plants, but you need to get the BH under control so the sunlight hits the soil.

I dont think burning brush will render the soil incapable of growing switchgrass.

Oh one additional thought I had, and I'm reaching out to the state forester as he mentioned corn and soybeans are not allowed in the classified land which I'm heading towards filing for...but he said I could piece out fields for an ag crop type share program if I wanted....so I want clarity if they are allowed if no harvest is going to happen and purely for wildlife or what?

Reason that may be crucial is I kinda think clearing say one of the two sections this winter, spray treating any sprouting bush honey suckle as it starts growing early, plant RR beans in the whole thing or RR corn and then any further sprouting BH in the crop this first summer could be hit with gly again...hopefully setting up a decent seed bed for the fall planting of switch.

I would assume that might be the better course for success with less "leg work need" cuz as you mentioned I envision with the logging, planting switch now this late winter I would truthfully need to at least probably two day trips walk the field and spot treat all BH sprouts happening with herbicide selectively. Easily done but would need done for sure.

 

[Brian662]

Keep in mind that you can mow switch when it is getting established. Let's say for example you mow the field twice in the first year after planting that will help with broadleaf control as well as any sprouting BH. Then when the switch goes dormant in October, the living BH will (should)still have have leaves and you can spray roundup on the whole field if you'd like to kill it off. I'm thinking of commercial spraying from the co-op or similar for that big of an area. The BH on my property usually stays green until late Nov.

Multiple ways to get done what you want to establish. The nice thing about switchgrass monoculture areas is that the chemical options are endless compared to more diverse plantings.

 

[tynimiller]

Keep in mind that you can mow switch when it is getting established. Let's say for example you mow the field twice in the first year after planting that will help with broadleaf control as well as any sprouting BH. Then when the switch goes dormant in October, the living BH will (should)still have have leaves and you can spray roundup on the whole field if you'd like to kill it off. I'm thinking of commercial spraying from the co-op or similar for that big of an area. The BH on my property usually stays green until late Nov.

Multiple ways to get done what you want to establish. The nice thing about switchgrass monoculture areas is that the chemical options are endless compared to more diverse plantings.

Thank you! Now question say a switch is selected, doe sit have a different herbicidal program than if you had a mix inclusive of say big blue, little blue also in there?

 

[Brian662]

Thank you! Now question say a switch is selected, doe sit have a different herbicidal program than if you had a mix inclusive of say big blue, little blue also in there?

Not really. All in the NWSG family, so as long as you aren't managing forbs or non grasses, you'll be ok using the same herbicides as just a switch monoculture. Only thing to keep in mind is dormancy dates will vary between the grasses.

The one herbicide that is commonly used for switchgrass to fight foxtail and crab/quack grass is quinclorac, you'd have to check the label to see if it was safe for big/little blue.

 

[j-bird]

I have drilled some into crop field - which turned into a pure stand, and I have broadcast some into areas of weeds that seem to be a more 50/50 mix. The deer seem to like the diversity. The broadcasting I burned the area off and disced...broadcast the seed and let mother nature do the rest. It's not the most efficient, but it worked to a fair extent. The thing is that it takes 2 years or so to see what the real result is that way. When it's drilled....it makes finding the seedling switchgrass much easier and thus you are able to see how it is doing, and you can baby it more/better. I would not mess with bluestem or indian grass either....I have not had any luck with it. Switch is far cheaper and easier to get to establish, and far easier to broadcast.

I didn't have to clear BH, but if you can get it cleared and the switch can get enough of a jump over the BH seedlings that may come up...you can burn them little suckers off later...as long as your switch stand will burn well. I burn mine yearly or every other year. You could also disc a few times to kill off anything that popped up before broadcasting. Keep in mind switch is a warm season grass, so it's not going to even germinate until the soil temps get warmer....I think we drilled mine in late spring. The concern with that is getting enough moisture to keep it alive, while not letting the weeds take over as well.

I wish I had more to offer up. If you get bored you are welcome to come down and see what I have done if it is of interest to you. I also have a number of the guy who drilled mine...he may be willing to travel....for a price. I would really recommend drilling to get the best results....regardless if you want a pure stand or a mixed one.

 

[tynimiller]

Part of me is weighing the option of not going to switch or grasses, allow me to explain.

So I'm not blessed with a lot of acreage. We are talking just over 22 acres and one thing I've learned lately is the attractiveness of the property is starting to tip to the point where the amount of deer usage is making food plots simply incapable of delivering enough tonnage to the deer. IF I removed an already low food delivery area due to the BH and bittersweet vines with grasses or pure switch...the only "positive" I'm doing is now I have the same no food cover offering but without it being delivered by invasives.

My thought is to utterly eradicate the BH, I may even still doze or forestry mulch some of the areas...and go in and either right away or next year when some growth as bounded back, shove hundreds of shrub type growth (silky dogwood, red osier, chokeberries, mulberries, ninebark, serviceberry, spruces, perhaps some oaks and others but focusing mainly on shrub like offerings. This would arguably take longer to deliver the same amount of cover the switch would but the short term sacrifice would be vastly beneficial in the long term that now food is also present in the bedding cover where before it wasn't.

The strong downsides of this is the time it may take and the upkeep it will take. BH and bittersweet will regrow...yearly walks with a backpack sprayer and cutters will need done to keep the BH and BS in check so natives and plantings and regrowth can take over.

I've got some time to decide and I'm not sure which way I go...I technically have two different areas of about 3-4 acres each so I could try each approach but not sure.

 

[j-bird]

The nice thing about a planting of switch with some native weeds/forbs mixed in is that controlling the woody brush (like BH) is much easier. You burn it off (yearly if you choose) and then mow/cut whatever remains. This is also a great way to find sheds in the tall cover come late spring. I like burning every year as I think it helps keep the ground open for ground dwelling critters. Planting shrubs is going to require all of them to be protected....otherwise the deer will trim them more than you would like. Shrubs also then require a more intensive approach to controlling the BH.

You could - plant the switch/native weeds.....and then later, once you feel you have the BH under control (you will never have it entirely gone), you can go in and plant shrub pockets that could then offer cover, more edge and a mast or browse source, you just need to provide a firebreak to protect them if/when you burn.

All I can tell you is that I have seen that even with more food than the deer can possibly eat.....without cover.....it's worthless for hunting. My place is a perfect example... When I started hunting, finding deer was nearly impossible. The limited timber was mature and we farmed every inch possible. It was a good hunt to just see a deer! I was an idiot and planted plots....because the plotting industry has this "plant it and they will come" sort of marketing...which is crap. That resulted in a waste of time because a lack of food wasn't the issue! Once I pulled my head out....and expanded the cover and improved the cover in the timber....then things improved. To be honest, I have scaled back my plotting over the years in an effort to expand my cover offers (including a small shrub planting). As such I try to "layer" my plots to make the most use of them so I don't have to have a summer annual plot, and a fall annual plot and an apple orchard and a perennial plot. Instead....I put my orchard trees in the perennial plots, and I overseed my summer annual plots with fall seeds. To again offer food options, but to limit the space I need to dedicate to that effort.

You know your place better than anyone.....and yes it's a balance. Good luck with which ever direction you decide to take.

 

[tynimiller]

The nice thing about a planting of switch with some native weeds/forbs mixed in is that controlling the woody brush (like BH) is much easier. You burn it off (yearly if you choose) and then mow/cut whatever remains. This is also a great way to find sheds in the tall cover come late spring. I like burning every year as I think it helps keep the ground open for ground dwelling critters. Planting shrubs is going to require all of them to be protected....otherwise the deer will trim them more than you would like. Shrubs also then require a more intensive approach to controlling the BH.

You could - plant the switch/native weeds.....and then later, once you feel you have the BH under control (you will never have it entirely gone), you can go in and plant shrub pockets that could then offer cover, more edge and a mast or browse source, you just need to provide a firebreak to protect them if/when you burn.

All I can tell you is that I have seen that even with more food than the deer can possibly eat.....without cover.....it's worthless for hunting. My place is a perfect example... When I started hunting, finding deer was nearly impossible. The limited timber was mature and we farmed every inch possible. It was a good hunt to just see a deer! I was an idiot and planted plots....because the plotting industry has this "plant it and they will come" sort of marketing...which is crap. That resulted in a waste of time because a lack of food wasn't the issue! Once I pulled my head out....and expanded the cover and improved the cover in the timber....then things improved. To be honest, I have scaled back my plotting over the years in an effort to expand my cover offers (including a small shrub planting). As such I try to "layer" my plots to make the most use of them so I don't have to have a summer annual plot, and a fall annual plot and an apple orchard and a perennial plot. Instead....I put my orchard trees in the perennial plots, and I overseed my summer annual plots with fall seeds. To again offer food options, but to limit the space I need to dedicate to that effort.

You know your place better than anyone.....and yes it's a balance. Good luck with which ever direction you decide to take.

Yeah I don't fully like either option for very valid reasons, many of which you outlined. Switch would definitely be the "lessor" of the intense work required. Sure IF or WHEN I get plantings mature enough the deer won't kill them to nothing it could be easily two or three years from now even for the fastest growers. Long term that just seems the best and what I'd prefer to have, BUT as you say the strong thing of doing switch for a while is the burn control factor. If switch wasn't so dang expensive I'd say plant it and around year two or three I'd just kill back pockets and plant stuff slowly...never burning switch again and slowly let it dwindle with woody growth popping up that I'd control any invasives.

 

[BenAllgood]

I don't deal with BH, but just thinking about some similar species down here. Could you burn this spring? When the BH greens back up, chemically treat it. Or, go in now and cut back as much BH as you can, then burn it this spring. Either way, you're hitting the BH with a one, two punch quickly.

 

[tynimiller]

I don't deal with BH, but just thinking about some similar species down here. Could you burn this spring? When the BH greens back up, chemically treat it. Or, go in now and cut back as much BH as you can, then burn it this spring. Either way, you're hitting the BH with a one, two punch quickly.

I don't believe enough litter/fuel on the ground exists presently due to how BH stops all understory growth for a burn to occur.

I'm having a professional forestry company come in and they will be treating the entire property for the BH and bittersweet everywhere. These two spots are two consolidated BH driven "thickets" that I keep thinking I could trigger faster regen if I cleared and did something...even if that was disc it up and let nature regen (controlling the invasives proactively each year).

 

[tynimiller]

Just a quick update as it's been awhile and some has happened.

I decided ahead of the EQIP guys coming in and mass eradicating/killing of the bush honeysuckle and bittersweet to remove a swath of it and overplant it.

I cleared probably close to an acre area that I need to be regenerating and thick as to allow it to continue to serve as a corridor of travel between a pond I have and a plot I have - I despise asking deer to walk in the open.

Skidsteer my buddy lets me use came in handy and I ripped up by the root TONS of bush honeysuckle, young saplings and most every tree type in this area. I did leave a crabapple I discovered...which is NOW LOADED with crabs and a couple others I strategically left for potential hinging over into the space for steering movement.

I then planted over a 100 chokeberry and red osier dogwood saplings I purchased from the state forestry nursery - these things had MASSIVE roots - I was the most pleased I've ever been with their quality and heading into July not a single plant I could find on revisits wasn't growing. I also just common man spread some big blue stem into this area as well. Bittersweet vines are regrowing for sure and I'll need to spend some chemical painting time in the spring for sure, and any young bush honeysuckle will also be easily identified and kept out of the regrowth area. The checker pattern area is the spot I cleared. Plan is next spring/late winter is to move south further than it, and move to the north side of pond and NE of it as a line of bush honysuckle exists there pretty heavy.

While I'll probably not get as much money towards the EQIP as I'm lessoning the invasive population - however I think not having my property go desert mode for a year all at once of it all is more benficial.

 

[Garrett S]

Just a quick update as it's been awhile and some has happened.

I decided ahead of the EQIP guys coming in and mass eradicating/killing of the bush honeysuckle and bittersweet to remove a swath of it and overplant it.

I cleared probably close to an acre area that I need to be regenerating and thick as to allow it to continue to serve as a corridor of travel between a pond I have and a plot I have - I despise asking deer to walk in the open.

Skidsteer my buddy lets me use came in handy and I ripped up by the root TONS of bush honeysuckle, young saplings and most every tree type in this area. I did leave a crabapple I discovered...which is NOW LOADED with crabs and a couple others I strategically left for potential hinging over into the space for steering movement.

I then planted over a 100 chokeberry and red osier dogwood saplings I purchased from the state forestry nursery - these things had MASSIVE roots - I was the most pleased I've ever been with their quality and heading into July not a single plant I could find on revisits wasn't growing. I also just common man spread some big blue stem into this area as well. Bittersweet vines are regrowing for sure and I'll need to spend some chemical painting time in the spring for sure, and any young bush honeysuckle will also be easily identified and kept out of the regrowth area. The checker pattern area is the spot I cleared. Plan is next spring/late winter is to move south further than it, and move to the north side of pond and NE of it as a line of bush honysuckle exists there pretty heavy.

While I'll probably not get as much money towards the EQIP as I'm lessoning the invasive population - however I think not having my property go desert mode for a year all at once of it all is more benficial.

View attachment 54714

Interesting. I had pondered helispraying but the cost went way up and the plan changed. There is not the fuel to burn, and it’s too thick to be a OOS landowner and win the war w my own efforts, more of select assaults and keep the monster at bay. While I won’t say BH (or the others) are good for browse, they are cover. The desert may be the better way to manage invasives, but it is not something I am financially or time-wise interested in doing on a property that has its short term value in deer hunting. Some balance between “Life is short, always leave it better than you found” are needed.


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[Brian662]

Interesting. I had pondered helispraying but the cost went way up and the plan changed. There is not the fuel to burn, and it’s too thick to be a OOS landowner and win the war w my own efforts, more of select assaults and keep the monster at bay. While I won’t say BH (or the others) are good for browse, they are cover. The desert may be the better way to manage invasives, but it is not something I am financially or time-wise interested in doing on a property that has its short term value in deer hunting. Some balance between “Life is short, always leave it better than you found” are needed.


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There is a lady in my area who does drone applications for herbicide and fungicide, I've spoken with her briefly but plan to look into the cost of treating my BH this way in the fall after everything else has leaf dropped. Allegedly she can do an acre per minute with the drone. I'll follow up when I get more details.

 

[Garrett S]

Wow! Please let me know all of the details and I would be all over that if I could afford it.

Heli spraying went from 200 to 560 and ac. I almost think I could hire someone to cut and stump spray for that much. Not sure why the change but I’m out of the game


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[Brian662]

I spoke to her again this morning and she quoted me $40/acre and that price includes herbicide. She has to double check with her business partner to see if they are interested in doing the job but I should hear back soon, she was interested. For that price, I wouldn't think twice about it, and may do it in multiple years if it is successful.

 

[Garrett S]

I spoke to her again this morning and she quoted me $40/acre and that price includes herbicide. She has to double check with her business partner to see if they are interested in doing the job but I should hear back soon, she was interested. For that price, I wouldn't think twice about it, and may do it in multiple years if it is successful.

100% with you. Wondering how far she will travel as I would hire them in a heartbeat (and multiple years as well). Wow! Keep me posted and if you don’t mind the contact share - I sure would be interested.


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