Cleth Spring Spraying Questions

Derek Reese 29

5 year old buck +
I have an existing 1/2 acre plot that was formerly a hayfield (see the post on said field). Last year I mowed the plot and then sprayed with gly in July. I did not get a good kill, but wanted to get my brassica and clover in early, so I seeded Alsike, Jumbo Ladino, Mammoth Red, and Aberlasting clover and some WI Clover and Fusion along with some Forage Brassica and Winfred Brassica. Later in the fall I added a bag of Triticale and a bag of WR. I did not get good growth on the clover and the grains and brassicas only did ok. Right now the field looks like a mowed/eaten hayfield with minimal clover and a bunch of brassica stems.

I am planning on frost seeding some more mammoth red, Alsike, MRC, gallant red clover and chicory. I have had good success with most of those clovers in the adjacent plot. Should I wait on seeding the clover until I get the existing grass/hay under control (as in wait until later in April /maybe even early May to mow and spray with Clethodim) or is it ok to frost seed and then mow/spray later in April (or even into May depending on the spring weather)? Never used Cleth before so I want to be sure I am doing it right. And this plot may surprise me and come back gangbusters with clover and I won't have to worry about the grass/hay much, but I am not counting on that and am hedging my bets with the frost seeding. Thanks in advance!
 
I wouldn't spray it as most of the stuff seeded, clovers and grains, will come on like gangbusters this spring. Spraying cleth will end the grains before they get a chance to do their thing.

I wouldn't frost seed until I knew what kind of clover coverage I was going to get from last year.
 
Perennial clovers take awhile to be established. Frost seeding can't hurt at all. I use a solo 421 with it just open enough to shoot seed out. Does about 4-5 lbs an acre that way. It has 2 openings 180 degrees apart, rather than just one. I see alot of red varieties, but not much white clovers. My plots do better with white clovers, especially if your going to mow them a few times a year. Some reds only seed out once or twice a season, while white is always in a cycle of growing/maturing. Ladino and white dutch are always in my blends. I add in medium red in my food plots. If its lawn or trail freshening up, I use none on the lawn and very little in the trails / club parkingl lot. This year I am using both durana and patriot, dutch white, and plotspike clover blend which has medium red, crimson, and a white variety or two as well as some chicory. I put some alfalpha in last year, but couldnt see any growth. Maybe this year.

Far as clethodim goes. It will kill your winter rye. I have no experience with tricale, but it will kil it. Not sure how well that survives winter. Especially the one we have, with the endless frost n thaw mess.

I would ID what is growing in your foodplot. Blades that look like grass can be something else. I sprayed a bunch at camp up north, thinking it was the cats meow to a perfect clover spot. However, I have mace sedge. Looks like grass, but is a tuber as well as a prolific seeder. Gving basagran a try this summer.

Clethodim won't hurt the clover, grains, brassica cycle. I'd See how your doing in early may, then maybe do a spraying. IF you get that soil analysis and you're deficient in boron, you can throw in a lb or two of borax soap per acre. Clethodim needs a surfactant like crop oil or the non-ion sufactant. I forgot what strength I used, just followed the directions on the bottle.
 
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I wouldn't spray it as most of the stuff seeded, clovers and grains, will come on like gangbusters this spring. Spraying cleth will end the grains before they get a chance to do their thing.

I wouldn't frost seed until I knew what kind of clover coverage I was going to get from last year.
Agreed. You’re way early calling a failure. Clover for me never looks good till spring, and is building mostly roots in fall. Clover only looks good in fall in a perennial food plot.

Without a good kill on grass, you need lots and lots of grain for it to look plush in fall. I agree to wait and see what things end up looking like.

If you want it to be a perennial plot, then spraying Clethodim in spring is a good idea. I would probably spray early may, and let the grain die naturally while having a protective effect for the clover.

Post a pic here before you spray. I bet it looks great.
 
Agreed. You’re way early calling a failure. Clover for me never looks good till spring, and is building mostly roots in fall. Clover only looks good in fall in a perennial food plot.

Without a good kill on grass, you need lots and lots of grain for it to look plush in fall. I agree to wait and see what things end up looking like.

If you want it to be a perennial plot, then spraying Clethodim in spring is a good idea. I would probably spray early may, and let the grain die naturally while having a protective effect for the clover.

Post a pic here before you spray. I bet it looks great.
I don't know if it is a failure, but compared to the adjacent plot (same field, right beside it) where I grew thick clover, awesome grains and great brassicas the same fall that I planted and had a great stand of clover and grains the next spring, it definitely is. (I know I haven't seen the results of the spring yet, though the fall appearance doesn't give me a great deal of hope). Although the factors leading to the great plot were not in play this year. During the great plot year, there was tons of rain (no lie, 9" in September), I had a good kill on the existing field and I WAY overdid it with seeding amounts (probably a factor of 2-4X overboard). So there are definitely other things going on.
I would like this to be a perennial plot eventually, but I am leaning more towards mowing it in the late summer and trying to get brassicas going as they are a better fall draw than the clover, though I like to have the clover (and even grains) because I am surrounded by ag and once those crops are gone my little plot is the only non-hay green for several months (most of them in hunting season). I really just don't want to have a grassy plot (I know it will grow in time due to the nitrogen from the clover, but I wanted to have a good, clean start).
 
I don't know if it is a failure, but compared to the adjacent plot (same field, right beside it) where I grew thick clover, awesome grains and great brassicas the same fall that I planted and had a great stand of clover and grains the next spring, it definitely is. (I know I haven't seen the results of the spring yet, though the fall appearance doesn't give me a great deal of hope). Although the factors leading to the great plot were not in play this year. During the great plot year, there was tons of rain (no lie, 9" in September), I had a good kill on the existing field and I WAY overdid it with seeding amounts (probably a factor of 2-4X overboard). So there are definitely other things going on.
I would like this to be a perennial plot eventually, but I am leaning more towards mowing it in the late summer and trying to get brassicas going as they are a better fall draw than the clover, though I like to have the clover (and even grains) because I am surrounded by ag and once those crops are gone my little plot is the only non-hay green for several months (most of them in hunting season). I really just don't want to have a grassy plot (I know it will grow in time due to the nitrogen from the clover, but I wanted to have a good, clean start).
Listening to your goals, I would consider letting it grow through early May. Then I would spray it with 2 quarts in an acre of glyphosphate, AMS, and surfactant. Then plant summer crop and mow.

I think we have beaten a dead horse about trying to do intercropping with perennial clover. However, if you still want to try that, you could spray 1 quart per acre of gly plus 12 to 16 ounces of Clethodim in May. This should smoke all the grasses and most broadleaf, but some clover with survive. Then you can plant your summer crop.
 
To get good kill always use ams (I use ams supreme) and surfactant (I use alligare 90 NIs).
 
Adding seed to existing vegetation can be a gamble. IF the existing stuff overcrowds the new seedlings for light, or you get a dry year and young stuff cant survive.

Agressive growth can be stunted with the application of gly. Far as dry years go, the best 2 bets is to frost seed and to have more rye around so you can plant late season.

A coworker of mine used to go real overboard with habitat stuff. Acres of soybeans, acres of brassicas, acres of corn. He mostly just seeds in rye now. He is at the borderline zone 4/5 maybe 1000ft elevation, He has ran his seed drill in early october. According to him the deer really enjoy the rye around the 4 inch height range.

I have had failed august crops before. What I did in early / mid sept was broadcasting oats and wheat with some clover seed. Then scratching the surface with a spring harrow until I saw about 30% soil. Usually 2 passes.

For your situation, you could have alot of thatch you got to get through. Duying a drag harrow for yourr ATV would help with germination.

Before I had a good clover spreader, I would put 1/2 my clover in with the grains, scratch the ground, then spread the other 1/2 of the clover with pelletized lime. Then air up my ATV tires to 8-10psi and drive all over it. How I have both a cutlipacker and a lawn roller.
 
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I have a homemade cultipacker and access to a small hare but I’m trying to not get the hay/weeds on track by scratching up too much. This plot will be pretty close to bare with just some clover and rye showing come March. I was just wondering if the frost seeded new clover seedlings would be affected after a month or two of growth by the cleth or if it would be better to plant it later when it’s warm and it will germinate faster and have less competition from the existing hay/grass.
 
Couple pics of the plot as it stands now
Looking West across the top
498DFFD3-C16A-4EAC-A626-075835A0E534.jpeg
Looking South with the good clover adjacent field to the left
2397FA6C-FEB4-46AA-A773-3EE9DDFF8B1F.jpeg
Close ups of existing plot..not a lot of clover visible but it was a dry fall so next spring could be ok
2BD1C853-0FD8-4369-878D-1DDFEE36FE23.jpeg
B1A8D101-C5C0-4CEE-9113-35C389AB5E62.jpeg
 
What kind of pasture grass is that? We might have to go nuclear on it.
 
What kind of pasture grass is that? We might have to go nuclear on it.
I have no idea I sprayed gly on it at 3 oz/gallon but that was during a drought when it wasn’t growing
 
Pasture grass takes multiple spraying or something stronger. Escort. Oust xp. Imazapyr. Depends on the grass.
 
Pasture grass takes multiple spraying or something stronger. Escort. Oust xp. Imazapyr. Depends on the grass.
It’s interesting because the “good field” as I have referred to it here took 1 spray of gly at I think 4 oz/gallon and it is located right beside the not so great plot in the same field and I would guess same planting of hay/grass. I really think if I had waited even a week or two to spray after a few storms in the summer it woulda been fine. I can’t recall if I hit the “good field” twice or just spot sprayed the second time.(I think this was the case) I don’t have the funds to do multiple rounds of spraying. I sprayed the “not great field” at 3 oz/gal as there was some good white clover in it that I was trying to spare.
 
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It’s interesting because the “good field” as I have referred to it here took 1 spray of gly at I think 4 oz/gallon and it bikes it totally same field and I would guess same planting of hay/grass. I really think if I had waited even a week or two to spray after a few storms in the summer it woulda been fine. I can’t recall if I hit the “good field” twice or just spot sprayed the second time.(I think this was the case) I don’t have the funds to do multiple rounds of spraying. I sprayed the “not great field” at 3 oz/gal as there was some good white clover in it that I was trying to spare.
For perennial grass kill I would do 2 quarts/acre plus ams and nis.
 
Perennial clovers take awhile to be established. Frost seeding can't hurt at all. I use a solo 421 with it just open enough to shoot seed out. Does about 4-5 lbs an acre that way. It has 2 openings 180 degrees apart, rather than just one. I see alot of red varieties, but not much white clovers. My plots do better with white clovers, especially if your going to mow them a few times a year. Some reds only seed out once or twice a season, while white is always in a cycle of growing/maturing. Ladino and white dutch are always in my blends. I add in medium red in my food plots. If its lawn or trail freshening up, I use none on the lawn and very little in the trails / club parkingl lot. This year I am using both durana and patriot, dutch white, and plotspike clover blend which has medium red, crimson, and a white variety or two as well as some chicory. I put some alfalpha in last year, but couldnt see any growth. Maybe this year.

Far as clethodim goes. It will kill your winter rye. I have no experience with tricale, but it will kil it. Not sure how well that survives winter. Especially the one we have, with the endless frost n thaw mess.

I would ID what is growing in your foodplot. Blades that look like grass can be something else. I sprayed a bunch at camp up north, thinking it was the cats meow to a perfect clover spot. However, I have mace sedge. Looks like grass, but is a tuber as well as a prolific seeder. Gving basagran a try this summer.

Clethodim won't hurt the clover, grains, brassica cycle. I'd See how your doing in early may, then maybe do a spraying. IF you get that soil analysis and you're deficient in boron, you can throw in a lb or two of borax soap per acre. Clethodim needs a surfactant like crop oil or the non-ion sufactant. I forgot what strength I used, just followed the directions on the bottle.
I have a solo also...love it for smaller seeds but I use a pull behind spreader for lime, fertilizer and grains...
I have no worries about killing the WR as I am surrounded by AG and have several other plots with WR in them close by.
I know I have some kind of thick clumpy hay and at least some carolina horsenettle (some of which I have pulled by hand-OUCH) in the plot.
I like your plan of waiting to see how it greens up with clover/WR into May...if we have even a relatively wet May/June planting then will not have a huge effect on the survival in the summer.
I am just terrible at waiting and being patient and would MUCH RATHER get stuff in the ground but I think being patient for even a few weeks is a good strategy in this case.
 
For perennial grass kill I would do 2 quarts/acre plus ams and nis.
I bought some "Nitrosurf" from Keystone. Combines Non Ionic surfacing and a nitrogen. Anyone else use this? I've had good luck with that product....and keep me from messing with additional jugs of stuff .
 
I bought some "Nitrosurf" from Keystone. Combines Non Ionic surfacing and a nitrogen. Anyone else use this? I've had good luck with that product....and keep me from messing with additional jugs of stuff .
It’s good stuff.
 
I bought some "Nitrosurf" from Keystone. Combines Non Ionic surfacing and a nitrogen. Anyone else use this? I've had good luck with that product....and keep me from messing with additional jugs of stuff .
This one has all of them combined too.

 
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