Cider Trees and Applesauce info

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5 year old buck +
Looking ahead a bit, think I could be into making cider and hard cider. I am in zone 5 hudson Valley NY, good soil, but a good bit of clay though, low to mid 6 pH. These are for my home, they will be watered and sprayed. I have cedar apple rust and japanese beetle issues. What I have in the ground and on order for spring

Empire, Golden Delicious, Arkansas Black, Enteprise, Liberty, Red delicious
Deer Crabapples: Crossbow, 30-06, droptine, big dog.
Have a few old trees that some are red delicious and think some are mcintosh.

I got room for 3 or 4 more trees....... MAybe hewe's crab, granny smith, macoun, maybe harrison, maybe not harrison due to cedar apple rust.

Any those deer crabapples good for cider making?

Also, do I need a pressure cooker to can applesauce or can sliced apples for pies.
 
Hewe's crab would definitely be on my list if I could trust it could do well in zone 4 AND on marginal soils. For where you are at would add to top of your list.

Like you my planned cider days are sometime in the future.

If you want to get serious about it pick up a copy of The new cider makers handbook by Claude Jolicoeur. Some of the chapters give recommendations on apple selections for the different zones and parts of the country based on his experience and his network of contacts all over

Have heard that Liberty makes a good general base to blend with the other specialized apples that are more limited in adding
Edit: Golden delicious was also mentioned as a good adder for cider when thinking about New England areas so you have a good starting point if you can get trees to crank out some production. I'm hoping that Honeygold does that for me some day but CAR is not a major concern here
 
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I tried harrison on m111, CAR ate it up bad, ended up grafting to a different variety. Yates makes a nice sweet cider, grimes golden is probably my favorite. Both varieties grow well here, no problems with CAR on either.
 
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Ordered (2) hewe's on M7 (2) Gin pears on 97' rootstock (1) golden Russet (2) empire on m111 (1) golden Delicious on M111 (1) Arkansas Black on M111.

Doubled checked my fall order from whitetail crabs, I have (2) Liberty on B118 in the ground.

Kinda like the sweeter hard ciders. The easiest way to make them sweet is to add some pears, I have various crabapple rootstock and bartlet pears on order from Willis orchards, might add a granny smith and Northern Spy. In my zone 5 near a large river, I might not have enough chill hours for northern though.
 
I'd suggest you look into a Redfree.
I have one and I love it. So do the deer.

Now, to be sure, I have not put its apples into a cider press (cider is too acid-y for my stomach).

But I have made plenty of applesauce from my Redfree. And the sauce is a great deep shade of......hold for it......'Red'.
Which is really no surprise because a mature fruit's flesh is a deep red.

I would think a bushel or so of Redfree would make a great addition to a run at the cider press.....as a stand alone (which would be very red)...or in a blend with other apples, then it would add a pleasant pinkish hue.

IMHO
 
Hewe's crab would definitely be on my list if I could trust it could do well in zone 4 AND on marginal soils. For where you are at would add to top of your list.

Like you my planned cider days are sometime in the future.

If you want to get serious about it pick up a copy of The new cider makers handbook by Claude Jolicoeur. Some of the chapters give recommendations on apple selections for the different zones and parts of the country based on his experience and his network of contacts all over

Have heard that Liberty makes a good general base to blend with the other specialized apples that are more limited in adding
Edit: Golden delicious was also mentioned as a good adder for cider when thinking about New England areas so you have a good starting point if you can get trees to crank out some production. I'm hoping that Honeygold does that for me some day but CAR is not a major concern here

I have several hewes (virginia) crabs in the ground and they survived the first winter very well.
 
I have several hewes (virginia) crabs in the ground and they survived the first winter very well.
Good to know as have seen listed as hardy zones 3-8 some sites while others have 5-8. Perhaps the zone 5-8 is based on something besides basic survival though and more on use for cider.

From Pomiferous.com website:
"Needs fairly warm summers to fully develop and tends to produce high levels of tannin and poor aromatics in cooler climates."
 
I'd suggest you look into a Redfree.
I have one and I love it. So do the deer.

Now, to be sure, I have not put its apples into a cider press (cider is too acid-y for my stomach).

But I have made plenty of applesauce from my Redfree. And the sauce is a great deep shade of......hold for it......'Red'.
Which is really no surprise because a mature fruit's flesh is a deep red.

I would think a bushel or so of Redfree would make a great addition to a run at the cider press.....as a stand alone (which would be very red)...or in a blend with other apples, then it would add a pleasant pinkish hue.

IMHO

Sounds more like a Redfield.
 
"Sounds more like a Redfield."


Absolutely. It is 'Redfield' I meant to describe....not Redfree.

Thanx. Good catch.
 
Good to know as have seen listed as hardy zones 3-8 some sites while others have 5-8. Perhaps the zone 5-8 is based on something besides basic survival though and more on use for cider.

From Pomiferous.com website:
"Needs fairly warm summers to fully develop and tends to produce high levels of tannin and poor aromatics in cooler climates."
I really like the pomiferous site. I read that about hewe's and got a bit concerned. I order 2 of them from mehrabyan nursery over in ithaca, NY. They either had antonovka or M7. I figured with the warmer zone, the sooner I find out it works well for cider or not. Every hardiness chart seems a bit different, so I went to the USDA plant hardiness map at https://planthardiness.ars.usda.gov/ Very little to no bear activity i my area, so the little M7 should survive. A little more at ease with my black Arkansas and granny smith purchase from turkey creek.

It's says I'm in a little blip in zone 6a. I travel up the catskill mountains for work in 5a. Many mornings I am 10-15 deg warmer. I am a mile away from the hudson river. Sure that helps on cold mornings. Many years It does not freeze.
 
Good to know as have seen listed as hardy zones 3-8 some sites while others have 5-8. Perhaps the zone 5-8 is based on something besides basic survival though and more on use for cider.

From Pomiferous.com website:
"Needs fairly warm summers to fully develop and tends to produce high levels of tannin and poor aromatics in cooler climates."

From what i have read, Hewes hybrids have been developed to improve winter hardiness. Below is a list i found that shows the 4 classic cider apple trees

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GREAT 4 COMBO
Keep in mind that good ciders are a blend of sugar, acid, tannin and an aromatic," he writes. "Few have the magic combination of elements, except Harrison, Hewes Crab, Roxbury Russet and Golden Russet. Usually, varieties are blended to achieve it, and this is the excitement and the mystery of artisanal ciders. The same blending of elements should be applied to pie making."


HARRISON (Bittersweet)
Also known as: Harrison Cider, Long Stem, and Harrisons Newark. Parentage/Origin: Essex County, New Jersey, early 19th century. Harvest: October. Description: Medium in size and round to oblong in shape, the yellow skin has black dots, and the yellow flesh is coarse and dry. Once lost to cultivation, Tom Burford found a 75 year old Harrison tree in 1989 and returned this valuable cider apple to the trade. Harrison juice is viscous and dark with complex flavors and exceptional mouth feel. The apple is scab and rot-resistant, bears annual, full crops, and keeps well in storage. It remains one of the very finest apples for cider-making, either fresh or fermented.

Harrison is also known as Harrison Cider, Long Stem, and Harrisons Newark. It first appeared in Essex County, New Jersey during the early 18th century, and was grown extensively for cider until the early 20th century. Throughout the 1800's, Harrison was a leading variety in cider production, valued for its ability to produce many small apples that made a champagne-like cider. By the 1900's, the rise of beer and prohibition largely exterminated Harrison production. This heirloom variety was thought to be lost until 1976, when it was discovered by Paul Guidez. More recently, Tom Burford has brought the Harrison back into cultivation. It is now grown by cider makers throughout North America.
The apple itself is small, round and yellow skinned, with small black dots. Harrison tastes dry and coarse, but yields a large percentage of juice when pressed. Harrison juice is viscous, syrupy, and dark, with complex flavors and exceptional mouth feel.
The Harrison tree is is a heavy annual bearer, with a single tree producing large quantities of small apples. Apples ripen in October in upstate New York, are scab and rot-resistant, and keep well in storage. It remains one of the very finest apples for cider-making, either fresh or fermented.
USDA Zones: 5, 6, 7, 8, 9

Heirloom: Yes

Uses: Fresh eating and cider

Harvest Period: Late

Bloom Period: Midseason

Pollination Requirement: Requires different variety with same bloom period

Origin Date: New Jersey 1817

Disease resistance: Good

Storage: 1 to 2 months

Rootstock: MM 111 (semi-dwarf)

Years to Bear: 2-4 years

Recommended Spacing: 12-16 ft.

Mature Size: 12-16 ft.

Water Requirements: 12-15 gallons per week May through Sept.




GOLDEN RUSSET (Sharp)

Classic American cider apple. High sugar. Late ripening and very long keeping. One of the very best eating apples.
Golden Russet was first discovered as a seedling of English Russet in upstate New York, 1845, but it could be older. Excellent cider and out of hand eating apple.
The fruit is medium-sized, russeted skin, varying from grey-green to bronze with a copper-orange cheek. The flesh is fine grained and crisp, with sugary juices that produce a full bodied cider with a rich aroma. High sugar and acidity, low tannin, a sharp cider apple. A good keeper, stays sweet, hard, nutty and crunchy throughout the winter.
Golden Russet is medium vigour, scab and cedar apple rust resistant. Ripens late October, best for eating between October-March. Hardy to zone 4.

Description
Also called American Golden Russet apple
High-quality, intense flavor! Tree bears medium-sized, yellow-gold russeted fruit, ideal for cider and juice. Fruit holds its shape when cooked. Enjoy fresh for complex sweet-tart flavor. Keeps well. Antique variety, originates from New York, circa 1845. Cold-hardy. Ripens in mid-October. Best pollinators: Granny Smith or Pink Lady®.
Characteristics
Bloom Color White
Bloom Time Early - Mid
Fruit Color Yellow Green
Fruit Size Small - Medium
Ripens/Harvest Mid October
Shade/Sun Full Sun
Soil Composition Loamy
Soil Moisture Well Drained
Soil pH Level 6.0 - 7.0
Taste Crisp, Juicy
Texture Firm
Years to Bear 2 - 5
Zone Range 4 - 8
Zone Compatibility
This Variety's Zone Range4 - 8
My Hardiness Zone5B
Based on your zip code, 53188
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The USDA hardiness zones offer a guide to varieties that will grow well in certain climates. Each zone corresponds to the minimum winter temperatures experienced in a given area. Make sure that your hardiness zone lies within the zone compatability range of this variety before ordering.
Size & Spacing
Mature Size
When your tree matures, it will be approximately 12 - 15' tall x 12 - 15' wide.
Recommended Spacing
We recommend spacing these trees 12 - 15' apart to ensure room for growth.
Pollination
This variety requires another one for adequate pollination.
Cross-pollination by a different variety is key to its growing and bearing success. Plant one of these varieties within 50' for best pollination.



Roxbury Russet (Sharp)
This oldest American variety has long storage life; makes a good single-variety sweet cider. Roxbury Russet is the oldest named American apple variety, from Roxbury, Massachusetts, in the early 1600's. It is likely one of the first propagated apples in the United States, and was popularized by Thomas Jefferson, who planted them in Monticello's south orchard in the 1770's.

This heirloom is a greenish-bronze, russeted fruit that is hard, crunchy, sweet and aggressively acidic. Roxbury Russet improves in storage, Apples of Uncommon Character says "By early winter, the acid gives way to a delicious, rich persimmon with nutty undertones". The antique apple is a superb keeper, great for fresh eating, cider, and baking. It is the classic russet, similar to Golden Russet but even higher in sugar (12.87%), and a bigger producer.
In upstate New York, Roxbury Russet ripens late September-early October, with peak flavor October-April.
The tree is vigorous and open-spreading, and shows some resistance to scab, powdery mildew and cedar apple rust. It is partially self-fertile and mid- to late- bloom. Will bear annualy. Widely hardy to zone 4.



Hewes (Virginia) Crab
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Note - Info above from Albemarle Cider Works

Hardy fruit tree that can be grown as an ornamental
Description: Small rounded fruits of a dull red, streaked with green; ripens in September in Central Virginia
Habit: Grafted on size-controlling rootstock; grows to 8'
Culture: Prefers sunny location; well composted soil; mulch to conserve moisture
Hardiness: Cold hardy to USDA Zone 4
Attributes: Edible fruits, attracts bees
Jefferson-documented

This cider apple, also known as Hughes' Crab and Virginia Crab, was the most common fruit variety grown in eighteenth-century Virginia. It is thought to be a cross between the North American crabapple, Malus angustifolia, and the domesticated European apple of horticulture. It produces a delicious cinnamon-flavored cider that is both sugary and pungent. Thomas Jefferson planted his entire north orchard exclusively with this variety. Jefferson's friend John Hartwell Cocke of Bremo Plantation proclaimed that the Hewes produced "the best cider I have ever seen".

This tree will ship bare root. One year grafted M111 is approximately 4' tall.
Virginia (Hewes) Crab
VIRGINIA (HEWE'S) CRAB is also known as Hewe's Crab, Hugh's Crab and Hughes Crab. There is also a Red Hewes Crab, a seedling of the Virginia Crab, grown by a Colonel Blackburn in Paris, Illinois, before 1869. It is redder in color and larger in size. It was well described by Coxe in A View of Fruit Trees, 1817, as: "The apple is of small size; the form nearly round, the stem long and thin, the skin a dull red mixed with faint streaks of greenish yellow, and numerous small white spots. The flesh is singularly fibrous and astringent: in pressing, it separates from the liquor, which runs through the finest flannel like spring water;…my own practice is to mix the crab pomace in the vat with that of strong rich cider apples, which makes an improved liquor…The tree is of small size, the leaves though small, are of luxuriant growth…the wood hard and tough, never breaking with the load of fruit, usually produced every second year. The origin of this apple is satisfactorily traced to Virginia, where trees nearly one hundred years old, are now standing…" This means that the variety was known in 1717. Coxe continues…"The apple called Hewe's Virginia Crab differs so much from all others that the liquor extracted from it requires a system of management adapted to the peculiar qualities of the fruit." Before the development of hybrid rootstocks, the Virginia Crab was often used as an under stock because of its hardiness, compatibility to many varieties, and vigorous growth. The Virginia Crab was one of the major cider varieties that Thomas Jefferson planted in the north orchard at Monticello. It makes a very high-flavored dry cider, which maintains its quality for a long time and ferments very slowly. In Central Virginia, it ripens in September.
 
Everybody talking about cider should be clear that the vast majority of information available is about hard cider. Unless a publication/web page specifically states sweet cider, it is almost certainly discussing hard cider.
 
From what i have read, Hewes hybrids have been developed to improve winter hardiness. Below is a list i found that shows the 4 classic cider apple trees

A fine list of truly classic American cider apples. But like any good salesman, note that only all the positives are listed but not the full story on the vulnerabilities.
For instance on Golden Russet, Pomiferous.com has the following - Vulnerabilities: Resistant to scab and canker but somewhat susceptible to rust and blight. None of the classic European apples from across the pond are mentioned in that list either.

I found this in the concluding remarks from Chapter 4 of Claude Jolicoeur's book to be interesting.
.... a total of 62 apple varieties have been recommended by seven experienced cider apple growers and makers from different regions of North America. For each of those experts, the recommended list represents the best varietal selection that could be planted for making a quality cider in their respective regions....of the 62 mentioned, 40 are recommended by only one of our experts.....this shows more than anything that no recommendation is universal...another interesting point is two of the experts use exclusively North American varieties while the other five use European cider apples blended with North American varieties. The apple which is represented in the top list of 6 of the experts is the Golden Russet apple.... Six other apples which appear in the top list of three of the experts include Ashmead's Kernel, Cortland, Cox's Orange Pippin, Dabinett, Northern Spy, and Yarlington Mill.... These represent two English cider apples, two English desert apples, and two classic American apples.

Of course with such a mishmash of a list, it does not consider that these apples can all be grown everywhere in North America and some will require a considerable amount of care to be productive.
 
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A fine list of truly classic American cider apples. But like any good salesman, note that only all the positives are listed but not the full story on the vulnerabilities.
For instance on Golden Russet, Pomiferous.com has the following - Vulnerabilities: Resistant to scab and canker but somewhat susceptible to rust and blight. None of the classic European apples from across the pond are mentioned in that list either.

I found this in the concluding remarks from Chapter 4 of Claude Jolicoeur's book to be interesting.
.... a total of 62 apple varieties have been recommended by seven experienced cider apple growers and makers from different regions of North America. For each of those experts, the recommended list represents the best varietal selection that could be planted for making a quality cider in their respective regions....of the 62 mentioned, 40 are recommended by only one of our experts.....this shows more than anything that no recommendation is universal...another interesting point is two of the experts use exclusively North American varieties while the other five use European cider apples blended with North American varieties. The apple which is represented in the top list of 6 of the experts is the Golden Russet apple.... Six other apples which appear in the top list of three of the experts include Ashmead's Kernel, Cortland, Cox's Orange Pippin, Dabinett, Northern Spy, and Yarlington Mill.... These represent two English cider apples, two English desert apples, and two classic American apples.

Of course with such a mishmash of a list, it does not consider that these apples can all be grown everywhere in North America and some will require a considerable amount of care to be productive.

Yes, as in all matters many have opinions sometimes cloaked in science.

As I am learning that with developing apple orchards for a variety of purposes, it is as much art and it is science. Each property is a unique canvas that you have to research info and opinions, to find what fits your goals. What I like about here is the experience and sharing of real world planting & success levels.

I am in between 5b & 4a zone wise so I try to stay in the zone 4 rated if possible. Willing to do zone 5 if I know I can plant in higher elevation of our property with good sun exposure.

I have planted the above 4 for cider along with...
Asmeads Kernel
Dabinett
Campfield
Chehalis Apple Tree
Cortland
Chesnut Crab
Franklin Cider
Golden Russet
Hewes
Hunt's Russet
Enterprise
Liberty
Redfield
Roxbury Russet
Whitney Crab
Wickson
Yates
 
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Yes a bit of art, science, opinion, and probably a lot of influence from local environmental conditions. Another example from your list above which is a very well liked apple and is mentioned several times in the If You could just Pick 3 Apples thread on here has the following issues that apply at times but must not be enough to kill everyone's enthusiasm where they have it planted.

Vulnerabilities: Susceptible to scab, mildew, fire blight and cedar apple rust. There is a problem with cracking some years.

I'll save the answer for some later time although the cracking comment probably tipped you off.

Meanwhile, like you I am trying to stretch the limits on Harrison a bit and have planted in zone 4. My tree had a whopping 1 apple this year so jury is still multiple yrs out. Guess we think the same though, planted higher on my hill southern facing exposure

Edit: One of my environmental factors is that bears REALLY like to trash my Chestnut Crab. Won't even give a second thought to the Whitney 15 ft away.
 
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IT may be the PBR of hard ciders, but angry orchard is about an hour away from me. They post what apples they use in their common offerings. I like the green apple one.

I do like sweeter of the hard ciders. This is why I order gin pears. Hopefully, theyll be a good addition to hard cider. I also have a bartlet pear on order too.
 
Apple sauce is a high acid food, you do not need to pressure can it. A water bath canner will do just fine.
 
I’ve not played around with hard ciders I do have a couple cider presses and have made sweet cider and given several pails to a buddy that’s makes wine. I even have several carboys left over from some beer making I experimented with many years ago when I was on active duty. Just never got around to making hard cider. I did experiment with making a sweet cider syrup something similar to sorghum from the sweet cider it was small batches so I simply boiled it down on the stovetop something else for you guys to try it’s actually quite good. We have a maple syrup operation and I was tossing around the idea of making cider syrup in the fall with the 3’x12’ evaporator but that will likely not happen until my brother and I retire as my brothers current employment doesn’t allow him enough time off in the spring to even fool with running the maple syrup operation let alone doing it a second time in the fall and I’m 12 hours away.
 
Apple sauce is a high acid food, you do not need to pressure can it. A water bath canner will do just fine.
I freeze our sauce in snap-lid containers. Thawed, it tastes like we just made it. I usually do a mix of several apples. My wife and I like Crimson Topaz, Goldrush, Rosalea, and Cortland together for the bulk of the sauce. I'll throw in a couple Winesap or Autumn Crisp too - to broaden the flavor profile. We add nothing to our sauce - just cook the apples & run them through one of those aluminum "cones" with a wooden pestle. Delicious!!!
 
Yes a bit of art, science, opinion, and probably a lot of influence from local environmental conditions. Another example from your list above which is a very well liked apple and is mentioned several times in the If You could just Pick 3 Apples thread on here has the following issues that apply at times but must not be enough to kill everyone's enthusiasm where they have it planted.

Vulnerabilities: Susceptible to scab, mildew, fire blight and cedar apple rust. There is a problem with cracking some years.

I'll save the answer for some later time although the cracking comment probably tipped you off.

Meanwhile, like you I am trying to stretch the limits on Harrison a bit and have planted in zone 4. My tree had a whopping 1 apple this year so jury is still multiple yrs out. Guess we think the same though, planted higher on my hill southern facing exposure

Edit: One of my environmental factors is that bears REALLY like to trash my Chestnut Crab. Won't even give a second thought to the Whitney 15 ft away.

Big reveal?
 
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