Changing genetics in a wild herd. Is it possible?

[Peplin Creek]

so I have seemed to notice a trend out in my general area. I have been hunting on this property for about 10 years now. I have been running trail cameras for all of those 10 years. When I first started hunting out there, our group and most of the neighbors groups would shoot pretty much anything with horns. So there wasn't much managing going on at all. We still had nice bucks on camera and I would be willing to bet that the top end of those deer scored 130 - 150 inches. I would get about 3 bucks like that a year on camera. Probably another 3 or 4 in the 110 -125 inch range. Well running a camera or two and seeing these deer convinced a lot of us to let little bucks go and now I would say the average buck that is harvested on the property or around it (600 acres) is probably 2 1/2 - 3 1/2 inch 8 pointers. 115-125 .It does seem like that's all we ever have on camera now, every once in while I'll get a picture of a buck that pushes 150 but it's middle of the rut, never to be seen again. It also seems like we went from having 5-10 different bucks to hunt to 3-5 different bucks and sometimes lower quality.

So that leads me to my question. I feel like there is almost no chance of changing genetics in a wild herd and maybe all of this is just a cycle or just pure coincidence. But with everyone letting little bucks walk, is it possible that we have somehow been passing down inferior genes of spike bucks and small forks and indirectly having "smaller" shooters than what was around when people took whatever buck they felt like?

I struggle to keep bucks on my property during winter and summer months so maybe some or most of the bucks that we let pass never come back. But that leads me to wondering if we aren't the one growing the bucks, there's really not a downside for others shooting small bucks around us because they are coming from someone else. I don't know... I'm probably just over thinking all of this.

 

[Knehrke]

It's definitely possible to alter genetics in a herd, given time and a rigid management philosophy. But what you're describing probably isn't due to genetics...think about it: you shoot some deer that are 3 or 4 years old and so "deprive" the area of their progeny. But it would be another 3-4 years before you'd know what their progeny are going to look like. You have less than two generations of input at this point. Not enough to make a big difference.

And shooting small rack bucks like spikes and forkhorns doesn't necessarily mean that you're managing for big racks (or vice versa). Those small racks might get big someday. If you were taking out middle aged deer that had reached their potential and weren't to your liking, ie "management" bucks, then you'd be prodding the gene pool more effectively. As is, I doubt that your harvest techniques have impacted the herd's genetic makeup and I bet what you're observing is simply a response to pressure, particularly as you mention that your place isn't a year-round home for them.

 

[Catscratch]

Question: was the property hunted before you started hunting it? I'm curious if your presence 10yrs ago changed anything.

I see a couple of scenario's possible here:
1 - You got access to an unhunted property that had old bucks and your hunting slowly took that older age class out.

2 - You and the previous hunters on the land kept the buck population down some with indiscriminate buck harvest and produced a balanced age class. When you changed harvest goals you allowed an imbalance of young bucks compared to older bucks. I do think that too many young bucks on a property tends to run out older and more secluded bucks (this is just a theory though, I really don't know this to be true).

My opinion on genetics... I have hunted the same property for a couple of decades. I have certainly seen a shift in genetics in the form of certain traits that are present. Stuff like double beams, inside points, G-2 kickers, split brows, etc. I do not think I (though harvest goals or habitat management) had anything to do with any of these traits and their frequency. Just nature doing it's thing.

I have had the exact same thing that you describe happen on our place. 20yrs ago deer season was a family event with a "if it's brown, it's down" mentality. Big bucks were common on the place then. Since the advent of leasing and changes in the family the place became a lot more managed and hunted for trophies only. After the first 5yrs the number of trophies dropped significantly and the average buck seen or photo'd was much smaller than before.

 

[Bill]

I do a terrible job at it but I believe in the Steve Bartylla theory on this. No you can't manage genetics but you can manage for better bucks on your farm. There are only so many beds on a piece of land for a buck(s) to use. Taking out a 3 year old 6 point rather than a 2 year old 6 or 8 point keeps a bed open for that deer that naturally has better genetics.

When everyone shot brown it was likely that many shot the first antler they saw and it culled, so to speak, some of the inferior deer and removed a trigger from the woods. Probably also taught the older deer it wasn't so safe to poking around in daylight. Now all the dinks get a pass and take up the good beds.

Again, I'm terrible at it but I do want to start putting some older inferior deer on the hit list.

 

[Bill]

Here is a three YO high tight 8. I'd love for a youth hunter to take him out and I may myself. He's knocking around the same area as the 10 I passed on the successful hunt thread. Likely come November he will be agressive and challenge the 10. Will the 10 grow tired of being pestered and leave??? Maybe, maybe not but why chance it.

this deer is never going to be that buck that dreams are made of. Sure he'll be a dandy in another year or two but he'll never be a booner and he may cost me one.

 

[trampledbyturtles]

IMO, no, I do not believe we have an impact.

At least in my area.

To many factors play in, mother nature being first an foremost with natural mortality, predation, disease an the like paired with winter die off.
Coupled with Mans handy work, I.E hunter harvest, Auto collisions - alot of deer meet this fate in my area. Poaching, alot of guys still drive around an shoot things for no other reason than to pull the trigger.

I know there are a few guys that like to wait it out for a larger racked animal. But with the limited draw rifle tags. A lot of individuals are just happy to fill the tag every other year. An I am fine with that. Took a friend out to the farm last yr that hadn't been deer hunting in 8 plus years. He hunted till the last morning an pulled the trigger on a basket rack 5x6 1 n 1/2 yr old that probably grossed 85 with crazy potential. I was pumped for him, he has 3 kids to feed under 4, an limited with time. I wasn't even hunting, no rifle tag, an I had already filled the bow tag. But it was probably the first time we had an actual deer camp, it was just a fun time. As a bonus he is going to get it mounted as a Jackalope to remember the hunt.

So all in all, I just think that our area sees to a high rate in animal mortality an recruitment to have an impact in genetics.

But that does not mean there are not a few old timers out there roaming the woods at night.
There is a reason they grow into 160-70 monsters, it cause they act like ghosts in the night.

 

[Nova]

Short answer is NO, not in our lifetime. It would take 100's of years to filter out all of one genetic stain if somehow you actually knew what that strain was and what deer was carrying it..

 

[tynimiller]

I think Nova nailed it and Bill puts it nicely as to what impact we can have. Every biologist in the field of deer or even cervidae in general all agree it is impossible in the wild to do so.

Each hunter defines and dreams of different bucks making a trophy...personally it is all these parts woven together: story, unique trait, age of the deer, antler size or characteristics and the experience.

Some deer may just have a few of those or all of those, but of course sometimes may only have 1 aspect of it. If a surprise buck shows up on my property and is a booner....everything else becomes irrelevant LOL.

Genetics though for me plays zero roll in my personal decisions because it is something I cannot control. Now, like outlined above, I'd love to think I'm evolving into the hunter that would choose a stocky 125 8-pointer I know is 4 1/2 over a barely P&Y known 2 1/2 year old if presented a choice...that impacts the quality of bucks I have, but genetics? No. Shoot does provide half the genetics anyways.

 

[North Mo]

I belonged to a hunting club for 27 years that owned over 2000 contiguous acres. The property had very low hunting pressure when purchased and the first couple years some very good bucks were taken but after a few years with heavier pressure a 125 buck was a very good buck off this area. Around the same time Missouri came out with a 4 point on at least one side antler restriction the club consulted with the state Private Land Specialist. He thought that most bucks in our area would eventually achieve at least a 130 score and that a minimum set there would eventually make nearly every buck a target. It took 3 years to show solid results. This worked out well in that area for many years. So I don't know if we had much effect on genetics but it sure had a positive effect on age structure to the point where in most years a few bucks from 140 to 170 were taken. I think it would be hard to have a huge positive effect on small acreage without like minded neighbors.

 

[tynimiller]

I belonged to a hunting club for 27 years that owned over 2000 contiguous acres. The property had very low hunting pressure when purchased and the first couple years some very good bucks were taken but after a few years with heavier pressure a 125 buck was a very good buck off this area. Around the same time Missouri came out with a 4 point on at least one side antler restriction the club consulted with the state Private Land Specialist. He thought that most bucks in our area would eventually achieve at least a 130 score and that a minimum set there would eventually make nearly every buck a target. It took 3 years to show solid results. This worked out well in that area for many years. So I don't know if we had much effect on genetics but it sure had a positive effect on age structure to the point where in most years a few bucks from 140 to 170 were taken. I think it would be hard to have a huge positive effect on small acreage without like minded neighbors.

Depending on locations many agree that a fully mature 5 1/2 year old buck will sport a 120 or better antler structure...that being the extreme low end of the bell curve of course. You described it perfectly, when you effect age structure you directly can impact the "quality" of bucks if the definition is inclusive of antler inches since "typically" as a buck ages his antlers grow obviously.

 

[j-bird]

I too do not think you can impact genetics in a fair chase environment......at least not within reason.

A higher number of does or young bucks or even our management work itself can push those older bucks away as well. Sometimes I think we as managers would be better off waging a habitat war on a property for 3 years or so and then just stop altogether instead of the constant "in process" many of our properties are. Our activities even though we are trying to make improvements I think can be counter productive at times depending on your goals.

 

[Boll Weevil]

I'm in agreement with others that regional genetics cannot be changed. Habitat improvement, improving sex ratio through doe harvest, and getting allowing bucks to age is what has yielded dividends on my farm. We're about to enter the 7th year of comprehensive wildlife, habitat, and forest management plans and couldn't be happier with the results.

 

[bjseiler]

http://dbcdeer.com/mastermap.html

Pay a local breeder to have a couple pregnant does fall off their truck near your farm next spring....... Just kidding!

 

[Peplin Creek]

Question: was the property hunted before you started hunting it? I'm curious if your presence 10yrs ago changed anything.

I see a couple of scenario's possible here:
1 - You got access to an unhunted property that had old bucks and your hunting slowly took that older age class out.

2 - You and the previous hunters on the land kept the buck population down some with indiscriminate buck harvest and produced a balanced age class. When you changed harvest goals you allowed an imbalance of young bucks compared to older bucks. I do think that too many young bucks on a property tends to run out older and more secluded bucks (this is just a theory though, I really don't know this to be true).

My opinion on genetics... I have hunted the same property for a couple of decades. I have certainly seen a shift in genetics in the form of certain traits that are present. Stuff like double beams, inside points, G-2 kickers, split brows, etc. I do not think I (though harvest goals or habitat management) had anything to do with any of these traits and their frequency. Just nature doing it's thing.

I have had the exact same thing that you describe happen on our place. 20yrs ago deer season was a family event with a "if it's brown, it's down" mentality. Big bucks were common on the place then. Since the advent of leasing and changes in the family the place became a lot more managed and hunted for trophies only. After the first 5yrs the number of trophies dropped significantly and the average buck seen or photo'd was much smaller than before.

I was the first person to start bow hunting out there exclusively on 80 acres but other neighbors did hunt as well. The place always had a lot of rifle hunters though.

I do think that your 2nd option could hold a lot of weight to what might be going on. It seems like every year I pass on a bunch of little bucks so it wouldn't shock me if the age structure is messed up. If the average buck could just be another 20 inches bigger, i would be a happy camper... although I am sure after awhile I would wish those bucks would be another 20 inches bigger too. Vicious cycle, the mind of a deer hunter.