Centennial Crab branch strength

deepsleep

5 year old buck +
First off, the Centennial Crab has, for the most part, been a great apple for me. Disease resistant, precocious, good to eat, heavy-bearing, and known to be a good pollinator. I may, however, be getting rid of most of them (I have 5 in my yard). The reason is, every year about this time, the deer and raccoons absolutely destroy the trees. They are 5th leaf on M7, and for the last 2 or three years, they get abused by the critters. I have no other varieties that get beat up like this. Last year, I thought it was mainly coons, but Dad snapped this pic from my house a few days ago.



The cage has been downsized, which doesn't help, but that deer is over 6 feet into the tree! Below is damage to a couple others. The second is a tree they haven't hit yet this summer, but you can see an empty section of leader where the branches got torn off last year. I am wondering if I should try to grow this variety on Standard rootstock. Might they hold up better? I have 3 Chestnut crabs next to these trees, and although the coons/deer get a lot of the fruit, the branches don't get ripped off. I will probably top-work these trees over, but wondering if anyone else had a similar experience.



 
I had the same thing happen last year, even with full sized cages. Centennials are the only ones where I've had severe damage. I'm a bit too far south for Porkies, but I have an unbelievable racoon population (and deer for that matter).
 
id say put a better fence and w some training the tree will beat the browse. Up to u if u want to kill a perfectly good tree right before its prime
 
Looks like you have to many deer.
 
id say put a better fence and w some training the tree will beat the browse. Up to u if u want to kill a perfectly good tree right before its prime

Not sure if you missed it in my first post, but the tree had a 5' standard cage on it that we use on all of our trees last year, and the same thing happened. This is the only variety that this happens routinely on (out of 200+ trees) so I am thinking that either 1) Critters love Centennial crabs so much, they freak out and destroy the tree, or 2) Centennial crab is structurally weaker than many other apple varieties. Thus, I am thinking I may top work those trees over to something else, and put Centennial on a sturdier standard rootstock. Here is a photo from last year, same time.

 
As far as training/pruning, this is one this spring. Fence is at the 5' mark, first scaffold about 5 1/2. Conduit is 10' pounded in about 1 foot. You would think this tree could withstand the forces of nature, but they all end up shredded whilst the Chestnut crabs next to them occasionally will have some slight damage, but not much.

 
The trees are just young. I would of never downsized the cage with the trees being that small. I wait till the trunk us the size of my calf to take the cage down. We also raise the cage 1 to 2 feet off the ground to keep the deer from getting over the cage like in your picture.
 
I think the pictures make the tree look a bit smaller than it is. This is actually a Querina on M7, planted at the same time, similar size. Not quite "calf-sized" yet but a year or 2 away. I guess what I'm getting at is that this problem I'm having is isolated to Centennial. The critters still get some of the apples on this Querina, for example, but they don't break every branch off in the process. Same with Yates, Chestnut, etc.



Even when I had big cages, the coons broke all the branches off them. Again, Centennial only. Short of putting an 8 foot electric fence around them, I don't think I can grow Centennial on M7 in my location. I seem to be able to grow several others without damage, so will likely graft them over. Thank you everyone for the input.
 
Lots of things I'd try before you reprogram them.

Higher cage, trap the coons with marshmellows and have-a-heart traps, bubble wrap under straw on the ground (I think that'd be funny to watch on trail cam), prune the lower limbs off even if it looks like a palm tree.
 
Hell, sounds you like the made decision already. Cut them down and graft them to another, less desirable variety.

You guys are too much! I still have some seedling crabs that need to be topworked. I have 5 Centennials in my yard which is pretty prime real estate as far as managing (spraying, harvesting). I am also getting into cider making and want to add some more cider apples. Instead of grafting those to the seedling crabs, I could graft them to the Centennials (M7), and graft some Centennials to the seedling crabs. I know that will cost me a couple of years. I just think that might give me a stronger tree. Of note, I have 3 Chestnut crabs, same rootstock, same nursery (W-W), same protection, next to these beat up trees that don't have this problem. Thus my concern. As far as trapping the coons, won't happen. I am an absentee landowner.
 
If nothing else your post is a "glowing testimonial":D for the Centennial crab as a wildlife magnet.

It sure is! The only problem is that it is a very early dropper. Good for early attraction, but so are a lot of wild trees. I know you have plenty of trees on Ant. Any Centennials by chance?

I wonder if I told Stu i was going to graft them over to Tolman Sweet and Grimes Golden if he would still view me as a buffoon?
 
Use heavier fence - concrete mesh is 5 ft. tall and you can raise it off the ground as someone else suggested. Make the cage diameter 5 ft. to keep deer further away. Use more than 1 stake on the fence. Use bigger rootstock so your trees get more wood. Trap the coons and/or porkies. Peanut butter and marshmallows work great for coons. Prune tree so lowest limbs are 6 ft. off the ground.
 
Use heavier fence - concrete mesh is 5 ft. tall and you can raise it off the ground as someone else suggested. Make the cage diameter 5 ft. to keep deer further away. Use more than 1 stake on the fence. Use bigger rootstock so your trees get more wood. Trap the coons and/or porkies. Peanut butter and marshmallows work great for coons. Prune tree so lowest limbs are 6 ft. off the ground.

As stated, I had 5+ foot diameter cages before, which didn't stop the coons. Raising the cages won't stop the coons. That would (and did) stop the deer, however. Again, I live in Florida, so I can't trap the coons. My dad spends some time there in the summer, but my property backs up to a huge swamp, so coon trapping is a full time job. I currently have the lowest scaffolds at 5-5.5 feet. Going to 6 is an option, but with M7 that doesn't leave a ton of tree left for fruiting. The bigger rootstock idea is what I'm getting at, as I think Centennial needs to go on sturdier rootstock to survive at my place. Many others do fine on M7 so, again, I think Centennial has weak branches. It IS a wildlife magnet, though.
 
I think that you are right in going to a B118 rootstock for wildlife trees in the future , I have some 10 year old trees on m7 rootstock and still have issues with them being smaller trees and needing support. Fortunately (unfortunately) my camp is in a low deer density area so the trees are not constantly getting beat up by deer. It is hard to begin your first set of scaffold branches above five feet on an m7 rootstock tree. Hopefully you trees will outgrow these issues in a couple of years.
 
If Centennial has weak branches on M7, it will also have weak branches on any other rootstock. Rootstock won't influence the strength or weakness of branches. Sounds like either you get rid of them or put e-fence around them.

FTR, I don't see you as a "buffoon". It just seems as though you have already made the decision...so its time to shi* or get off the pot ;)

I agree with you that rootstock won't make stronger branches, per se, but larger branches will be stronger. One way to get larger branches faster would be standard rootstock. I feel like I could put these onto crab seedling stock, defruit for 3 or 4 years and the coons could use them as a jungle gym at their leisure. As natureboy alludes, even 10 yo M7s are still a bit wimpy in comparison. The good news is I can sit on the pot until early May. For now, Dad has put larger cages on them.
 
I didn't know you lived a distance away from your property for being able to trap the coons. My suggestion to go to a bigger rootstock was just to get you a taller tree to be able to prune so your lowest scaffold limbs could be higher off the ground. It would seem the deer reaching up over 5 or 6 ft. on their hind legs would beg for a larger fence diameter, to keep them further away. I have deer nip the ENDS of limbs, but not with so much pull to break the whole limb - all they can reach is the very ends. The tips break or get chewed off instead of the whole branch. We have most of our trees at camp on Antonovka or B-118 rootstock. Antonovka take a few more years to get going, but they'll get to 25-30 ft. tall with lots of wood.

I think your Dad putting larger cages on will help - with deer !! Coons are a whole different challenge.

I too have a Centennial at camp on Antonovka. I hope we don't have the coon problem with it. Deer we have kept away.
 
Don't worry about the coons, we are all over it!


Now my #1 mouse catcher is really upset with me!
 
In my area, things go in cycles. Lots of coon one year and then ground hogs are the problem the next year. cottontails the next year.

I am just thinking out loud without trying it... but I see more and better solar power gear on the market. How about a solar powered e fence charger on a few cages around the centennial crabs?
 
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