A note on Norway spruce

[Bowsnbucks]

Just to give an idea of Norway spruce growth - 15" seedlings I planted in 2008 are now 15 to 18 ft. tall. They get plenty of sun, so that's a big factor. Cages and a bit of 10-10-10 for the first 5 years got them growing well. Now the cages are off, and if a buck rubs on them, it won't kill them. They're well established and have healthy root systems. Soil is clayish-loam with small stones in it. It drains pretty well. ------ FWIW.

 

[g squared 23]

How many years before they actually contributed “cover”, or at least did the job you were intending them to do?


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[Bowsnbucks]

How many years before they actually contributed “cover”, or at least did the job you were intending them to do?

About 7 years until they became a screen. Those spruce are planted in staggered, double rows.

 

[bwoods11]

I’ve found it takes about 6 years before deer will use the tree plantings, after 12-15 you have a real mecca if you plant a lot of spruce/pine!

 

[Bowsnbucks]

after 12-15 you have a real mecca if you plant a lot of spruce/pine!

Agreed!!! Our oldest Norway spruce plantings were planted by me and my son in 1997. They were planted in a recently-logged area along the skid trails. In really cold, windy weather, deer settle in there - and have for some years now. Inside those spruce clusters on a windy day, you could light a candle and not have the flame blow out. Calm & quiet as can be. There are also native hemlocks and a few white pines throughout that old cut. The deer have verified that they like what we have there. Bedding on dry needles and leaves out of the wind must suit them!

 

[BuckSutherland]

Just to give an idea of Norway spruce growth - 15" seedlings I planted in 2008 are now 15 to 18 ft. tall. They get plenty of sun, so that's a big factor. Cages and a bit of 10-10-10 for the first 5 years got them growing well. Now the cages are off, and if a buck rubs on them, it won't kill them. They're well established and have healthy root systems. Soil is clayish-loam with small stones in it. It drains pretty well. ------ FWIW.

Question...


Did you ever put down a weed mat around them to kill off all competition or did they have to compete with nature inside the cage?? I planted some ABP plugs from Itasca around May of 2018, without weed mats and mulch. They did absolutely nothing first couple years. Finally got around to a weed mat and some mulch the last two years, but still not done with all of them. Some of them really took off. I am planning to be 20+ feet tall in 12 years on the better trees. 2 years to establish and then 2 feet of growth per year for 10 years on average. It looks entirely possible to me with average rainfall.


Next spring I am fertilizing ALL of my planted trees with weed mats. I did it last year by injecting some 19-19-19 about 1 foot away from the central leader and about a foot below the weed mat. I just took my shovel and opened a slot and poured a bit of fertilizer and then closed it up. Made my burr oaks EXPLODE. I assume it will really help my conifers too. Last year was the first year I ever fertilized a tree, and all I did was some oak trees for an experiment.



Spring 2018






June 2021, and finally above the canopy. Weed mat installed 2020, and still needs more mulch.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Question...


Did you ever put down a weed mat around them to kill off all competition or did they have to compete with nature inside the cage?? I planted some ABP plugs from Itasca around May of 2018, without weed mats and mulch. They did absolutely nothing first couple years. Finally got around to a weed mat and some mulch the last two years, but still not done with all of them. Some of them really took off. I am planning to be 20+ feet tall in 12 years on the better trees. 2 years to establish and then 2 feet of growth per year for 10 years on average. It looks entirely possible to me with average rainfall.


Next spring I am fertilizing ALL of my planted trees with weed mats. I did it last year by injecting some 19-19-19 about 1 foot away from the central leader and about a foot below the weed mat. I just took my shovel and opened a slot and poured a bit of fertilizer and then closed it up. Made my burr oaks EXPLODE. I assume it will really help my conifers too. Last year was the first year I ever fertilized a tree, and all I did was some oak trees for an experiment.

Buck -

On most of our spruce I didn't use a weed mat or mulch. Many of them were planted in logged areas that had ferns & rocks. I DID spray some gly around the ones in the "woods areas" where ferns are a problem. Others along field edges, I left them to compete with the grass - which was mowed, but not tight to the spruce - and they did fine for the most part. Others that were planted as a screen along the mountain road were also not weed matted or even sprayed with gly. In all three situations, I noticed that it took 2 years for the root systems to get established before any real upward growth took place. Year 3 was when I noticed upward growth. Once they started growing, they took off pretty well. Starting in year 2, I would toss down some 10-10-10 around them and in the spring of year 3 things took off. That was the case even with spruce I DID NOT toss 10-10-10 around. But in the following 5 years, the 10-10-10 does REALLY make a difference - maybe because the roots are better-established to use the fertilizer?? Can't answer that one.

Somewhere on here, and in a few other sources, I've read that it takes newly-planted seedlings or trees about 2 years to "get their feet under them" - establish good root systems. Once the root systems are established, the trees are able to pull nutrients and take off. I've seen the same thing in our apple & crab trees. The first year or 2 they grow some - but don't really get going until year 3. The spruce, as well as our fruit trees, seem like year 3 is the green light year.

Weed mats or mulch around spruce to reduce competition will certainly help speed growth. Spraying with gly ( carefully! ) or another safer chemical that Lickcreek used around spruce trees (can't remember the name of it - now I'll have to look it up!!) - will also keep weeds & grass knocked down. ----- FWIW.

EDIT ......... Simazine is the other chemical Lickcreek used. It's a pre-emergent weed and grass killer that controls a big number of weed pests. If I remember correctly - I think Lickcreek sprayed right over his young spruce seedlings with Simazine. Don't trust my memory (!!!) - better to contact the manufacturer and ask them if spraying right over young spruce is safe with Simazine.

 

[Bassattackr]

Thoughts on Black Hills Spruce vs Norway Spruce for screening use?

Looking at an area where they'd get partial (not full) sun.

 

[H20fwler]

I think Black Hills grow faster.

 

[Buckly]

Buck -

On most of our spruce I didn't use a weed mat or mulch. Many of them were planted in logged areas that had ferns & rocks. I DID spray some gly around the ones in the "woods areas" where ferns are a problem. Others along field edges, I left them to compete with the grass - which was mowed, but not tight to the spruce - and they did fine for the most part. Others that were planted as a screen along the mountain road were also not weed matted or even sprayed with gly. In all three situations, I noticed that it took 2 years for the root systems to get established before any real upward growth took place. Year 3 was when I noticed upward growth. Once they started growing, they took off pretty well. Starting in year 2, I would toss down some 10-10-10 around them and in the spring of year 3 things took off. That was the case even with spruce I DID NOT toss 10-10-10 around. But in the following 5 years, the 10-10-10 does REALLY make a difference - maybe because the roots are better-established to use the fertilizer?? Can't answer that one.

Somewhere on here, and in a few other sources, I've read that it takes newly-planted seedlings or trees about 2 years to "get their feet under them" - establish good root systems. Once the root systems are established, the trees are able to pull nutrients and take off. I've seen the same thing in our apple & crab trees. The first year or 2 they grow some - but don't really get going until year 3. The spruce, as well as our fruit trees, seem like year 3 is the green light year.

Weed mats or mulch around spruce to reduce competition will certainly help speed growth. Spraying with gly ( carefully! ) or another safer chemical that Lickcreek used around spruce trees (can't remember the name of it - now I'll have to look it up!!) - will also keep weeds & grass knocked down. ----- FWIW.

EDIT ......... Simazine is the other chemical Lickcreek used. It's a pre-emergent weed and grass killer that controls a big number of weed pests. If I remember correctly - I think Lickcreek sprayed right over his young spruce seedlings with Simazine. Don't trust my memory (!!!) - better to contact the manufacturer and ask them if spraying right over young spruce is safe with Simazine.

I used a combo of Simazine and Prowl H2O in the spring directly over Norways. No need to be careful like with Gly. Just spray away. They are good pre and post emergent herbicides. Then in the fall I would spray Oust XP . That is quite effective at killing anything the others left or grew over the summer. I used this combo for the first 3 years on 2000 Norway’s with good results. I never liked the Gly option , it was just too risky and you had to be careful. After 3 years I quit spraying and went to mowing where I could. You have to be careful there as whirling blades can take out your hard work if you lose concentration. After 5 or 6 years I just let them go.

 

[BuckSutherland]

I used a combo of Simazine and Prowl H2O in the spring directly over Norways. No need to be careful like with Gly. Just spray away. They are good pre and post emergent herbicides. Then in the fall I would spray Oust XP . That is quite effective at killing anything the others left or grew over the summer. I used this combo for the first 3 years on 2000 Norway’s with good results. I never liked the Gly option , it was just too risky and you had to be careful. After 3 years I quit spraying and went to mowing where I could. You have to be careful there as whirling blades can take out your hard work if you lose concentration. After 5 or 6 years I just let them go.

I hate chemicals, and am down to about 100 trees per year. Weed mat is easy, safe, and cheap enough to do. No matter what way a person choses to go trees will explode with some type of weed control.

 

[BuckSutherland]

I think Black Hills grow faster.

Norway spruce will actually grow quite a bit faster. Black hills spruce is a much more desirable end result to me. I love how a black hills spruce looks after 20+ years. Norways are subject to much more browsing and rubbing. Black hills spruce probably more drought and disease resistant and just all around a tougher tree.

 

[Bassattackr]

Norway spruce will actually grow quite a bit faster. Black hills spruce is a much more desirable end result to me. I love how a black hills spruce looks after 20+ years. Norways are subject to much more browsing and rubbing. Black hills spruce probably more drought and disease resistant and just all around a tougher tree.

Great feedback, thank you. Seems Black Hills don't grow as tall long term either? Might be more desireable from a screening perspective..

How do they do in a part shade environment? We have quite a few cedars but they self prune and get pretty sorry looking if they don't have full sun. On the other hand we have some extremely large cedars that have kept their ground branches in full sun. Just have to keep that in mind with cedars.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Thoughts on Black Hills Spruce vs Norway Spruce for screening use?

No experience with Black Hills spruce ........ YET. Buck has me twitching with my "ordering finger" on the keyboard !!

 

[Bowsnbucks]

I've done what Buckly has done - gone to mowing around them once they get to a certain point. Keeping weeds at bay in the early years is DEFINITELY a plus for getting the spruce jumping. Kill the weeds and put the 10-10-10 (or your fertilizer of choice) to the spruce. Along our field edges we can still mow between the double rows of Norways - but it won't be too long before they'll close in on each other and the mower will not be possible. But that's OK - it'll be a nice thick screen.

The tallest Norways along our field edges are about 18 ft. tall now. I planted in successive years so the smallest ones are about 4 ft. tall. We like staggered heights for a more natural look - at least for a while.

 

[bwoods11]

Thoughts on Black Hills Spruce vs Norway Spruce for screening use?

Looking at an area where they'd get partial (not full) sun.

In Minnesota I’ve had better overall luck with Black Hills Spruce. Growth is about a foot a year.

 

[BuckSutherland]

Great feedback, thank you. Seems Black Hills don't grow as tall long term either? Might be more desireable from a screening perspective..

How do they do in a part shade environment? We have quite a few cedars but they self prune and get pretty sorry looking if they don't have full sun. On the other hand we have some extremely large cedars that have kept their ground branches in full sun. Just have to keep that in mind with cedars.

I think if you give them 6-8 hours of sun a day you can expect them to grow about 8-12" per year. Probably 16-18" with full sun. All the best wind breaks and screens HERE are black hills spruce. The branches just keep spreading out on norway and white spruce. All the black hills spruce I see look like this picture. Thick, dense and healthy. They retain their branches from top to bottom very well.

 

[Bassattackr]

I think if you give them 6-8 hours of sun a day you can expect them to grow about 8-12" per year. Probably 16-18" with full sun. All the best wind breaks and screens HERE are black hills spruce. The branches just keep spreading out on norway and white spruce. All the black hills spruce I see look like this picture. Thick, dense and healthy. They retain their branches from top to bottom very well.

D@mn. If mine look that good, my family will want to cut them down for Christmas trees..

 

[BuckSutherland]

They are a wonderful stout tree. Most of their energy goes into filling out instead of growing tall. If you wanna grow some I would suggest getting the chainsaw out and make some sunlight for them.

 

[SD51555]

I planted these as reject quart pot trees in 2007. I got them from a landscaper that was going to throw them away. This was last winter. Site matching is a big deal with BHS. This area is an awful clay hill with no topsoil that just bakes in a drought. They love it here. Mulched them when I planted them, but let the grass grow through. I sprayed gly around them once after two years. They took off so fast, they shaded out the ground around the trunk on their own and never looked back.