What is yourfavorite persimmon?

[Headdigger]

What is your favorite persimmon for wildlife use?

 

[wango tango]

Wondering myself. All I know is that they need to be American. I’m told the Asian varieties do not drop “on schedule” as it relates to deer hunting.

I’m wanting to order some, trying to find a nursery. May go to Stark brothers who have grafted females. But boy are they expensive. Prok American variety.


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[yoderjac]

Lotus and Kaki (oriental) don't drop from the tree. Some are astringent and some are not. American persimmons are all astringent. This means climbing critters won't eat them before they are ripe. When they fall they sweeten and deer get equal access to them.

Different varieties drop at different times. Most of the commercially named varieties drop on the early side. I find the persimmons that grow native to my land are the best adapted. I then take some of the male native trees and graft the to female with both commercial varieties and scions traded with others. This gives me some persimmons that drop at different times throughout the year, but my native trees that are well adapted to my area seem to be the most prolific so far.

 

[PatinPA]

Drop Time Chart

There is a time when a fruit matures, a period that a fruit will fall free from the tree and remains palatable. This is a fruit ripening and drop time chart

bluehillwildlifenursery.com

Troubled Trees sent me this site the other day. He's in central PA but I believe he ships. He has a few varieties of persimmons that specifically drop in the fall.

 

[yoderjac]

Drop Time Chart

There is a time when a fruit matures, a period that a fruit will fall free from the tree and remains palatable. This is a fruit ripening and drop time chart

bluehillwildlifenursery.com

Troubled Trees sent me this site the other day. He's in central PA but I believe he ships. He has a few varieties of persimmons that specifically drop in the fall.

Meder and Morris burton are the only common persimmon names on the chart. There seems to be no authority for naming persimmons. I have the Claypool orchard records. He laid out his orchard and numbered the trees by location. He did a bunch of crossing trying to commercialize persimmons. He rated them an a variety of factors. Some of those persimmons were very precocious but had some characteristics that were not highly suitable for the commercial market like black spots on them. I'm seeing a lot of nurseries take these varieties and put "Deer" in the name and sell them at a premium to deer hunters.

American persimmons are my favorite wildlife tree. First, they are native to my area and that makes them well adapted and perform very well. Second they are free or nearly so. You can take scions from any tree in your area that is producing fruit, cut down a non-producing tree in the 1" to 4" diameter size that is growing on your property and bark graft the scion. You can see the first fruit in the third leaf after grafting. The large root system from the established tree makes fruit production much faster. Third, while they require some attention the year you graft, after that, they are maintenance free.

If you don't have persimmons growing natively on your property, they are less of a slam dunk. Planted trees can take many years to become highly productive.

 

[Headdigger]

I'm fortunate to have a pasture that has several hundred native persimmons growing on it. They are 60 chromasome. I have been grafting Kaki and 90 chromasome stuff since 2016.

I'm trying to decide on what new cultivars that I might want to order scion wood for. I have enough Kaki. If there is a Kaki x Virginia cross that drops without the help of a coon, I would be interested in that. I have some 60 c stuff that gives me fruit dropping into December.

I'm wondering if I need to buy some male 90 c wood to graft around the 90 c stuff that I have growing. I've heard that some varieties set fruit without being pollenated. So far, I've set fruit on John Rick, Prok, Early Golden and Deer Magnet. I did not check them for seeds.

 

[yoderjac]

I'm fortunate to have a pasture that has several hundred native persimmons growing on it. They are 60 chromasome. I have been grafting Kaki and 90 chromasome stuff since 2016.

I'm trying to decide on what new cultivars that I might want to order scion wood for. I have enough Kaki. If there is a Kaki x Virginia cross that drops without the help of a coon, I would be interested in that. I have some 60 c stuff that gives me fruit dropping into December.

I'm wondering if I need to buy some male 90 c wood to graft around the 90 c stuff that I have growing. I've heard that some varieties set fruit without being pollenated. So far, I've set fruit on John Rick, Prok, Early Golden and Deer Magnet. I did not check them for seeds.

My native persimmons are 60 c as well. I've grafted lots of 90 c stuff to it. Most of the named varieties are 90 c. I heard reports that Nikita's Gift (a cross and cross-back) drops from some folks and that it doesn't drop from others. So, I decided to experiment with it. I did some bench grafts of native trees I started from seed. It produced fruit quite quickly, but I have never seen one on the ground. The are astringent but they don't drop when ripe. I picked some and the calyx is quite heavy and it took a lot of force to pick it. My assessment so far is that they don't drop.

With no real authority for persimmon names, I'm presuming someone was just selling an American persimmon and calling it Nikita's Gift, either intentionally or unintentionally and that is why we see reports of them dropping like American.

I've chatted with the experts on persimmon pollination. 60 c will clearly cause 90c to fruit, but it is often seedless. There was some reports of a named variety planted in an areas up north where there were supposedly no other persimmons in the area producing fruit. The experts speculate several possibilities. First, there was some unknown male persimmon in the area. They are insect pollinated, so the male could be quite far away. Another possibility was that there was a male branch on the the tree that the owner was unaware of. "Perfect" trees are rare but they have both male and female branches and can self-pollinate. A third possibility was that some other form of pollen was the right size with the right signature to fool the persimmon into thinking it was pollinated and it produced seedless fruit.

Bottom line is that if you have native persimmons growing in your area, you can convert every tree you find to female. You will never find all the male trees and your trees will get pollinated.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Headdigger]

Did you happen to ask the people that you talked to about crop set? If 90 c X 60 c will set a heavy crop? Some of my trees are old enough and big enough to set a good bit of fruit this year. I might save my money and see what happens .

 

[yoderjac]

Did you happen to ask the people that you talked to about crop set? If 90 c X 60 c will set a heavy crop? Some of my trees are old enough and big enough to set a good bit of fruit this year. I might save my money and see what happens .

I don't think there is much different in the cropping based on the pollinator. In general, 90c (the northern strain) seem to have hardier trees that produce larger but fewer persimmons. 60c (the southern strain) seem to produce more but smaller persimmons. My 90c grafted to 60c seem to have much less vegetative growth and produce persimmons sooner. When I graft 60c native scions to male 60c trees, they have a lot more and faster vegetative growth but take longer to produce persimmons. That has been my experience. One year I got a lot of 90c seed from Cliff England. I grew some out and bench grafted them to specific 90c varieties. Since they are seedlings, it will take many years before I know how they are producing.

 

[blueKYstream]

I don't have any of my persimmons fruiting yet. I have a question though. I bought a Deer Candy persimmon. For some reason it also came with a Prok tag. At any rate, there was a late summer drought followed by a late Spring hard freeze. I noticed in the summer that this one died back and sprouted again from the graft. Does anyone know if this is a root sprout or still the Deer Candy graft (right is dieback left is new sprout)? Looks like a root sprout to me.

 

[yoderjac]

It looks like a root sprout to me. Notice the color difference from the graft and origin location. There is no real authority for naming persimmons. Most are not easily identifiable. Tags fall off and some places just put them back on and things get mixed up. You will never know if it was deer candy or prok. Having said that, many of the trees sold with "Deer" in the name are attempts at a commercial tree that are precocious but have some flaw from a commercial market perspective. Places found if they put "Deer" in the name, they can sell them to hunters for a premium. I'd say the primary thing is to buy persimmons that are well suited for your zone. After that, using multiple varieties will generally stretch your drop time window.

I'd just buy a couple scions of the variety you want and graft to the root sprout. Cliff England has a fairly wide range of scions.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[blueKYstream]

Thanks Jack! I noticed the color difference as well, but since that graft died back almost a year ago, I figured that could've played into it as well. It turned black and snapped off real easy. I planted over 100 persimmon seedlings to either leave them grow or serve as a rootstock. I bought Deer Candy in a pot to be able to graft it to some of the seedlings down the road since I know it's a female and it's supposed to drop later. Cliff sells Deer Candy and he's only a 2-hour drive south of me. I figured it would last since we're so close. I will probably end up grafting it, but it's always nice getting a second set of eyes in case I was wrong. Thanks!

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks Jack! I noticed the color difference as well, but since that graft died back almost a year ago, I figured that could've played into it as well. It turned black and snapped off real easy. I planted over 100 persimmon seedlings to either leave them grow or serve as a rootstock. I bought Deer Candy in a pot to be able to graft it to some of the seedlings down the road since I know it's a female and it's supposed to drop later. Cliff sells Deer Candy and he's only a 2-hour drive south of me. I figured it would last since we're so close. I will probably end up grafting it, but it's always nice getting a second set of eyes in case I was wrong. Thanks!

Cliff was a great help when I was first starting out with persimmons. He is very knowledgeable. I believe "Deer Magnet" is actually Claypool (now Lehman) 100-29. I can't recall what "Deer Candy" is.

Thakns,

Jack

 

[finahol]

"Deer Candy" is actually a marketing tool for a collection of early persimmons which includes "Prok", "Morris Burton", and "Yates". Per Chestnut Hill. I believe they are shipped to different parts of the country according to expected hardiness. I witnessed a shipment of "Deer Candy" last spring which included all 3 varieties so I checked into it.

 

[White Birch Farm]

"Deer Candy" is actually a marketing tool for a collection of early persimmons which includes "Prok", "Morris Burton", and "Yates". Per Chestnut Hill. I believe they are shipped to different parts of the country according to expected hardiness. I witnessed a shipment of "Deer Candy" last spring which included all 3 varieties so I checked into it.

Lol...you are mixing Apples and Oranges, or in the case Cultivars and Branding.

Deer Candy is an actual named cultivar. Only Chestnut Hill uses it as a broad marketing name.

There are several sources of the cultivar.

 

[blueKYstream]

I don't know one way or the other but when I initially saw it I emailed them to figure out which variety it was. They said it was a mistake that they sent several mislabeled pallets. That could be false but that's what I was told. I just sent them those pictures of the failed graft. If I get an answer, I'll let you know.

 

[White Birch Farm]

I don't know one way or the other but when I initially saw it I emailed them to figure out which variety it was. They said it was a mistake that they sent several mislabeled pallets. That could be false but that's what I was told. I just sent them those pictures of the failed graft. If I get an answer, I'll let you know.

They use “Deer Candy Collection” as a brand as opposed to as the name of a cultivar. Additionally, it is questionable as to whether the “Deer Magnet” they advertise is the same cultivar as that which is generally recognized as the Deer Magnet cultivar within the industry.

 

[blueKYstream]

Kinda crazy that they can label it like that. The tag states Deer Candy drops in late October through November. From what I understand, Prok is an early dropper starting in August and going through September. That's the part that doesn't make sense to me.

 

[White Birch Farm]

Kinda crazy that they can label it like that. The tag states Deer Candy drops in late October through November. From what I understand, Prok is an early dropper starting in August and going through September. That's the part that doesn't make sense to me.

They have what they label as a “Deer Candy” cultivar as well. However, given their willingness to use the names so losely it is impossible to know whether that is the same genetics as the original Deer Candy cultivar.

For myself, I would acquire them from Cliff or Ryan if I want more certainty to the genetics.

 

[blueKYstream]

Sounds like they need to introduce a few more and call those Deer Candy as well haha! Stupid question but who is Ryan?