Vote: What's more fair chase?

[Baker]

Baker, I am truly jealous of the hunting properties you have. No offense on my opinions, they aren’t directed at anyone, and I don’t intend them to be insulting, or putting that type of hunting down. I am just saying, the high fence does give an advantage, if not, then why have one? To me that kind of hunting just doesn’t seem right, I wish it did, I could have some trophy deer on my walls. But to me, I am more then happy shooting 120-130” deer, or even a decent doe, knowing I worked to get the deer, and had to try to out think the deer. Obviously I don’t win that one very often.

FINALLY!, Finally the question has been asked....Why have one?

Before I share why I fenced some of my property I want to visit the whole "fair Chase" idea a bit. Seems many view fair chase as a function of how challenging the hunt is. Presumably based on the way deer behave based on environmental circumstances and hunter technique. I propose that most deer herds behavior around the country is totally perverted by man creating psychotic schizophrenic vampire deer with herd composition and behavior significantly disrupted from the the way unmolested deer behave. How variable can fair chase be?

I got to explore the Norias division of the King Ranch back in the early 90's for a few years. 250,000 acres of outstanding wildlife country and a deer herd that had essentially never been hunted. High deer population. Obviously low fence. If you wanted to "fair chase" hunt a 6 yr old + buck there forget if you should use a gun, cross bow, recurve, mechanical release, 18 wheeler load of corn, food plot...or whatever technique one personally ascribes to fair chase. A long handled hammer would work quite well. Hunting there was about as hard as hunting the 10 acre pen referenced earlier. Fair chase? According to B&C yes. According to the criteria I often see here and elsewhere, Yes.

Contrast that with my farm; 1350 acres gone fenced with food plots everywhere. Right now, today, I have an 8 yr old 190 class absolutely gorgeous super massive buck that grew up on my farm. I challenge anyone . Bring a .300 Weatherby Magnum that will shot as far as the eye can see. Bring al the dump truck loads of corn you want . I will pay for them. Hunt any and all of my food plots al season if you want. Utilize any legal technique that fits anyones definition of " fair chase " is to hunt this deer. Is this " fair chase" ? According to Boone and Crocket no. And I completely agree!!! Its not fair at all as I think you have essentially NO chance of killing that deer. I'm willing to bet a full years management budget against it.

What are we really talking about? Fair chase ? Or the challenge of a hunt?

So why did I game fence my farm? Simple. I love deer! I wanted to create as healthy , fully functioning," normal" deer herd as possible. And after 30 or 40 years I learned the only way that was possible was to build a game fence. I wanted a buck doe ratio reflecting what I had seen with unmolested herds. I wanted the age structure to include all age classes creating the social dynamics a truly healthy herd reflect.I wanted to see the effects , beauty and epigenetic evolution providing a deer herd outstanding nutrition year round accomplishes. I wanted to see the year round behavior of an outstandingly healthy deer herd from the bachelor groups in the summer, rut behavior from multiple age classes in the fall, mothering does with their fawns...and the list goes on. And yep...I wanted to grow trophy class whitetails. I love watching them all to be sure. But how totally freakin cool to have giant whitetails roaming a farm I live on and the chance to see them from time to time . Its a dream come true! And totally freakin cool! And they are plenty damn hard enough to hunt IMO.

So I propose there can be absolutely ZERO difference in the challenge of hunting deer game fenced or not depending on the same circumstances that are present in open range.

 

[Howboutthemdawgs]

Technicalities Jack!

If you have a 12 foot high fence going all the way around your 1000 acre property, those deer aren’t getting out, they now belong to the land owner.

which gets to a sticking point to me. How is that not criminal to enclose the citizens wildlife?

 

[yoderjac]

Technicalities Jack!

If you have a 12 foot high fence going all the way around your 1000 acre property, those deer aren’t getting out, they now belong to the land owner.

They don't in our state if they are wild deer. The owner cannot kill them inconsistent with the game laws and such. That may not be the case depending on the permitting. Here, you could not put of a 12' fence surrounding 1,000 acres without special permitting. Technicalities do matter. Here, you own livestock and can kill it any time you see fit. You don't own wild deer on your property and must abide by the game laws to harvest them. Interestingly enough, once a deer is dead it belongs to the property owner in our state. So, if I shoot a deer and it leaves my property and dies on my neighbors property. He can keep me from retrieving it and keep it himself if he wants. We ran into this situation when urban bowhunting on small properties where neighbors were anti-hunting minded and would not allow bowhunters to trail and retrieve on their land. If my livestock leaves my land and causes damage, I'm responsible. Not true with wildlife like wild deer.

None of this impacts the ethics of hunting behind a high fence. I'm simply saying that the laws and regulations of the state, including ownership of wildlife impact how deer can be managed.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[4wanderingeyes]

So I propose there can be absolutely ZERO difference in the challenge of hunting deer game fenced or not depending on the same circumstances that are present in open range.

Baker, I have watched several of your videos, read many of your posts, and drooled over several of the deer you have on your land. Again, I am very jealous of what you have created. I know you have put in your time, and lots of money into your ranches. I would love to have an oasis such as yours!

The size of the land that is fenced in, and the thickness of the land does change how challenging the hunt can be. A high fenced 2500 acres that is really thick, is much different then 100 acres of cropland, with a 40 acre woods. High fenced hunts vary a quite a bit, most places around my region is considered large if it is above 100 acres. Once you get above 1000 acres, you are getting close to a deers natural boundaries anyhow, so hunting is comparable to what it would be like without high fences, except the advantage of growing the deer how you want them, and not having to worry about the deer being shot by the neighbors, or getting hit by a vehicle. I am sure poachers can still be an issue.

But you even admitted, there is an advantage, you can keep outside sources from influencing your deer. You can keep other hunters out, and the deer in. You can provide your deer with high quality food. So the deer are artificially being grown, by you, for you. So, while in large high fenced areas can still be challenging to hunt, it takes away the value of the trophy. Going back to my comment earlier, if someone shoots a 190 in a high fenced area, wont mean as much as my neighbor shooting a 140". At least in my opinion. But the nice thing is, it is just, my opinion, and it only means something to me! I am not an anti, I would never try to change a law, or push your kind of hunting as unethical to anyone, I am just expressing what my opinion is, and why.

 

[SwampCat]

As I have said before, I am not against baiting, or high fence, or for that matter hunting deer with dogs. If it is legal, and you are ethical about it, and it is how you want to hunt, have at er.
I grew up a farmer, shooting a fenced deer sounds about as much fun as cow hunting, but I have never done it, so I wouldn’t be a good person to judge. But it just isn’t something I ever wanted to do.
Bait hunting, I have done it, the county I am in, has been in and out of it being legal for several years. Right now it is illegal, but I am pretty sure most of my neighbors still do it. I personally learned that is I bait, I have more bear, and when I have more bear, they wreck more trees, so I have decided it isn’t worth it to me. But those that do it, are drawing the deer off of my property, which they are on most the rest of the year.
Food plots, I have 3, 3/4 acre plots, and an apple orchard. Deer use these year around, and they benefit the deer year around. My land is in the northern forest region, and there is very little crop land. So any winter food source, and early spring food sources help deer.
TSI, I also hinge cut about 50 trees a year to bring more cover, and a food source to ground level for late winter, early spring food.
So my comparison between a hunted over bait pile, and a year around food plot I think is night and day different. A bait pipe benefits the hunter, not the deer. The food plot benefits a deer herd year around. Sure I can have 10 deer in my food plots at any given time, I do know the food plot later draw deer, but they also feed them all year, not just draw them in, for a good shot.
I have 1 food plot that is never hunted over, and I have a camera over it. There is more deer in that plot then in the other 2 combined, but it draws the deer off of the neighbors land, so that is its purpose. I also plant clover throughout my entire 2 acre yard, and the deer are always wandering my yard, they aren’t hunted there either.
Again if it is legal, and you feel it is what you need to do to hunt, and you can sleep at night, enjoy! I have my idea of fair chase, or ethical, but that is mine, and my choices. Everyone else can chose theirs, as long as it is legal.
Unless of course President Harris decides no more hunting, or guns allowed.

I would agree with your assessment of food plots versus baiting. While I would consider food plots versus baiting to be very similar when only considering fair chase - there are differences when comparing benefit to the game. There is also a difference between baiting and supplemental feeding. Baiting - in our state - is defined as a food source placed for hunting purposes between Sept 1 and the end of Feb. that is legal all over the state. Supplemental feeding is placing of food source for the deer outside of those months - and is legal only outside the CWD zone. As far as what is actually helping the deer - I live in the south and dont believe any food plot or supplemental feed is necessary for the deer to survive. That being said - I do think food plots and supplemental feed and baiting will contribute to a healthier deer - thus producing more fawns and bigger antlers. This is the first year that we have consistently provided a supplemental feed throughout the summer beginning in June - the same feed we use at our fall and winter bait sites. In forty years hunting my area - we have never killed a deer that weighed over 185 lbs on the hoof. I have worked game check stations and weighed hundreds of deer - and only weighed one over 200 lbs. This year, we have killed three bucks that weighed between 200 and 225 lbs. I cant contribute those buck weights to anything else but the supplemental food we supplied. Right now, we have two spin feeders going and two hand place bait sites. We do hunt a stand where you can coincidently see a bait site - but also we can see 400 yards in other directions - so we arent really hunting the stand because of the bait site. Other than that one spot, we are not hunting anywhere we can see a bait site or feeder - they are just not as productive as food plots this time of year for hunting. I have one spin feeder that is set up just off a two acre wheat/clover/pea/brassica food plot. I have a texting camera on the feeder so I know when to to shoot hogs if they show up. I also have a regular game cam on the food plot. I might get one or two pictures a day of does at the feeder. I get dozens of pictures of deer in that food plot every day on the non texting cam. They have to walk 20 feet to get to the corn, but often dont do it. This is a spin type feeder with corn - and the deer just dont hardly utilize it this time of year. Our bait sites where we feed other products are still heavily utilized - but almost all activity is at night. You are much, much more likely to see a buck checking the food plots for does than coming to a bait site to feed.

I have provided bait for many years - primarily as a tool for hog hunting. We provided corn at different locations around our property for ten years before we ever hunted the first bait site - because we never really thought of those places as a really great deer stand site. Then grand kids started coming along. And we got a crossbow (another subject, but I would consider use of a crossbow much more a game changer than a bait pile). A bait pile is a good tool to use to position deer in front of kids especially - because they usually are much slower about sighting up the deer - and especially when using a crossbow and the deer need to be close. We arent talking trophy deer - we are talking killing A deer. At this point, I still had the thought process that hunting bait was ok for kids, but wasnt something a long time hunter would do. That began to slowly change as I noted the number of quality bucks being killed by all my neighbors who owned ten or fifteen acres. Many of these deer were killed off their back porch or out the kitchen window. While I dont really consider a spin feeder with corn very effective for big buck hunting - they dont have to be when ten of the adjoining property owners have one they can monitor 24/7 during deer season. They had a sweet deal - I spend $10,000 a year and 500 hours of labor and own all the equipment to produce the deer - and they buy a $100 feeder and $50 worth of corn and some bullets - and they kill the deer. Doesnt get much better than that.

Gradually, my son and his buddy started hunting feeder locations because they got tired of the neighbors killing all the bucks - and they didnt have as much time to hunt as I did. Neither one ever killed a buck off a feeder. But we didnt know how to successfully hunt a bait/feed location. We have learned and evolved. We now provide high protein feed starting in June. The deer eat it all summer. They get used to eating it in the day time because big bucks are more diurnal in the summer. Hand spread - no feeder or trough. You have to live at your place to be able to do this. And you have to be able to kill your bucks early - first part of October - before they split up. We have to fence to keep the hogs out. This is our first year with being this serious about it - so I dont know how this program will shake out in a month or two. Dont know if bucks will become more regular on feed in a month or two - after the rut, or if they will still be a ten minute visitor at 2 am.

This is definitely not something for everyone. As previously discussed, some have problems with ethics, many are absentee landowners and couldnt maintain such a feeding program, and it can be costly - we buy feed by the ton. I do believe our program provides more to the deer than what a lot of people think - a high protien, high fat, easily available food source nine months out of the year.

I sat in a stand with my grand daughter the second day of season last weekend. We were at a bait site and overlooking a grown up slough. We saw two does and a three pt buck - one of the does did not come to the bait. My son was 600 yards away on a wheat/durana food plot and saw 23 deer. I had a camera on a food plot 300 yards away - and it got pictures of six different deer while we hunted - no telling how many more were in there.

What we are doing has now probably been incorporated as a permanent feature in our management plan. Yes, we did kill three nice bucks the first two weeks of October that we would very likely have donated to the neighbors. And I dont feel bad about it at all.

 

[Baker]

Baker, I have watched several of your videos, read many of your posts, and drooled over several of the deer you have on your land. Again, I am very jealous of what you have created. I know you have put in your time, and lots of money into your ranches. I would love to have an oasis such as yours!

The size of the land that is fenced in, and the thickness of the land does change how challenging the hunt can be. A high fenced 2500 acres that is really thick, is much different then 100 acres of cropland, with a 40 acre woods. High fenced hunts vary a quite a bit, most places around my region is considered large if it is above 100 acres. Once you get above 1000 acres, you are getting close to a deers natural boundaries anyhow, so hunting is comparable to what it would be like without high fences, except the advantage of growing the deer how you want them, and not having to worry about the deer being shot by the neighbors, or getting hit by a vehicle. I am sure poachers can still be an issue.

But you even admitted, there is an advantage, you can keep outside sources from influencing your deer. You can keep other hunters out, and the deer in. You can provide your deer with high quality food. So the deer are artificially being grown, by you, for you. So, while in large high fenced areas can still be challenging to hunt, it takes away the value of the trophy. Going back to my comment earlier, if someone shoots a 190 in a high fenced area, wont mean as much as my neighbor shooting a 140". At least in my opinion. But the nice thing is, it is just, my opinion, and it only means something to me! I am not an anti, I would never try to change a law, or push your kind of hunting as unethical to anyone, I am just expressing what my opinion is, and why.

Appears to me, our discussion is simply boiling down to perspective and to some degree approach. While we can debate whatever " artificial" means I'm extraordinarily happy having effective management opportunities to grow as healthy a herd as possible. Seems we all look for advantages one way or the other in our passions and pursuit. I only speak for myself and my personal experience but I have taken 190" and bigger bucks off both my low fenced and game fenced properties in Mexico and in La. and they all have equal meaning to me. I am totally jazzed, happy and proud to have created an environment where such magnificent creatures can grow and flourish.

 

[SwampCat]

To be honest, the killing of the deer is secondary to me. It is the management that gets me engrossed. The addition of a game fence - which I will never be able to have - is the ultimate deer management tool - in my opinion. It allows the owner of the property the ability to finally reach the end game in their efforts without being affected by your neighbors influence. The chance to let you acheive all the potential in your property and your knowledge.

You could be Dr Kroll with 300 acres and sixteen hunting adjacent property owners and you would be as effective a deer manager as Joe Blow. Put a game fence around it, and you could once again be Dr Kroll

 

[H20fwler]

Ownership probably depends on the state you are in. Here, you need special permits for a "deer farm" where deer are purchased like livestock. You also need a special permit to own a wild deer. There are limits on fence height and distance that restrict wildlife movement. In our state, wildlife is owned by the state while it is alive. Ownership may be different in other states.

Thanks,

Jack

Same here, before a property is HF native wild game is to be driven out of enclosure and landowner has to have a permit through the state with animals listed of what is put into enclosure.

As far as plots vs feeders and bait, if both are done year round I don’t see to much difference. Both benefit all kinds of wildlife and help manipulate to hold wildlife on the property.

 

[bigbendmarine]

Honestly don't feel like I've got a dog in this fight, but having baited at limited times for hogs on my place I would point out that one BIG difference I see between feeders, mechanical ones specifically, and plots is that food can be cast out at very specific times and in doing so animals can become conditioned like Pavlov's dogs, having to quickly come to a limited amount of dispersed food versus being able to dine all night (which in Hades hot Florida deer are often inclined to do).

The above shared, again don't have too much of a dog in the fight as using corn at my place is a guaranteed invite to the local hogs AND bears, and I strongly prefer not to draw them anymore than they already are drawn.

 

[4wanderingeyes]

Yup, corn will draw the bear and coon in faster then a picnic basket by me.