The Woods ... mistakes I'v made

Big D, I didn't date the planting of those trees; however, I am sure they are at least 6 and maybe 7-8 years old. If you want to max out growth of new trees, make sure you keep them watered adequately for the first 3 years, mulch them with landscape fabric with pea gravel on top (I then put straw bricks on top of the gravel), remove competition, and protect them from deer and critters who will chew the bark close to ground level. You won't be disappointed in the soft mast they will provide. The pea gravel is heavy enough so mice can't tunnel under it - the straw bricks are the real mulch. Here they are in 2020 ... I suspect they were at least 2, maybe 3 yrs old at that time. They made a few pears the second year they were in the ground. Trees in the second photo are probably 9-10.

Straw bricks are 3-4" slices off a straw bale that has been wet 2-3 times over a couple of years ... they peel off quite easily

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Oakseeds,
Thanks for your response. I'll be buying some supplies this week to better protect them in hopes I can attain the same harvest(s) as I see in your pics.
 
Attached is a photo of some hybrid oak acorns (bur oak polinating an overcup oak) from a known F1 offspring. Some display a peduncle; usually found only with swamp white oak trees and English oak trees and frequently with hybrids involving one of the two as parents. I emailed one of the early Presidents of the International Oak Society since I knew he had knowledge of the tree.
He said ... "Thanks for not just ignoring that, and good on you for being knowledgeable enough to recognize the irregularity!"
The only explanation he could offer ... "That tree is a true F1, and there is only the one, grown from Q. lyrata seed picked off the tree that was found to have been pollinated by Q. macrocarpa located almost within touch of it. The only way an F1 can have more than two species represented would be if one of the parents itself was a cross. We can conclude from other trees grown from this same female lyrata parent that it is not detectibly heterozygous, so I can't explain the peduncle except to suggest that there can be more going on behind the scenes with the staminate parent that anything short of a full DNA sequencing or progeny test might not reveal! Perhaps the macrocarpa had some long-hidden bicolor gene that finally showed itself. Or perhaps the peduncle is just a normal result from this particular cross. I have not studied enough of them to draw any conclusions and I don't know anyone who has. Sounds like a thesis project to me!" "This is why many botanists choose something simpler to study, and it's why American Forests discontinued trying to recognize hybrid oak champion nominations!" ;-)
Wow! Another affirmation of the difficulty of identifying hybrid oak trees. Because I had a concern about the size of the cap possibly deterring deer from consuming them, I left a dozen in the shed to see how quickly the cap might soften or fall off. When they became soft I used channel lock pliers to easily crack the cap for removal, and placed them in a container of water for a float test ... they ALL floated.
I left them in the water for a couple of hours (like Angus 1895 did his floaters) and am currently in the process of attempting to get them to germinate. To date, 4 of the 12 have germinated; these two instances of "floaters" germinating certainly should give pause to the float test argument ... at least for newly harvested acorns. Experiment time .... Since I've still got more of these acorns, a dozen will go into a sandwich bag (no moisture) left in the shed all winter - then rehydrated - and we'll see if any will germinate next spring.

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What makes you think these acorns are from a hybrid? They look like normal overcup acorns to me. Overcup oaks have peduncles. Overcups usually have two acorns attached together like in the first photo with the peduncle attaching the acorns to the limb. If you break the acorns apart, the peduncle will stay with one of the acorns. Overcup oaks inhabit low areas that flood so the acorns are designed to float to aid in dispersing the seeds. The float test will not work on overcup oak acorns since even viable acorns will float. Even if you remove the cap, the acorn will still float.

I have found differences in the amount of cap between various trees. Most trees have thick caps that cover almost the entire acorn (acorn on the left in photo 3). I have found a few trees that have thinner caps that do not extend as far down the acorn (acorn on the right in photo 3). The shell is also thinner and not as corky as seen in photo 4. I forgot to take a photo before slicing the acorns in half so I had to put them back together for photo 3. I have no idea if they will pass these traits along to their offspring, but I have grown a few over the years in hopes that deer will prefer smaller caps and a thinner shell.
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How much of a difference does the cap make to a deer? I was sitting in a stand the other day and had two young bucks under me crunching through Hickory nuts. They were just grinding them right up.
 
1st ... thanks for the post Fishman; it provided some good information about overcup oaks. For any who missed/ignored my earlier post, the tree in question was initially raised in a nursery and has a recorded history.
My post identifying the tree as a hybrid resulted from the fact the tree was raised in a nursery and transplanted to its current location – according to a past President of the International Oak Society who is also a registered arborist. I repeat, HE said ….
"That tree is a true F1, and there is only the one (he means among 700 trees at this location), grown from Q. lyrata seed picked off the tree that was found to have been pollinated by Q. macrocarpa located almost within touch of it. The only way an F1 can have more than two species represented would be if one of the parents itself was a cross. We can conclude from other trees grown from this same female lyrata parent that it is not detectibly heterozygous, so I can't explain the peduncle except to suggest that there can be more going on behind the scenes with the staminate parent that anything short of a full DNA sequencing or progeny test might not reveal.” “Perhaps the macrocarpa had some long-hidden bicolor gene that finally showed itself.” “Or perhaps the peduncle is just a normal result from this particular cross. I have not studied enough of them to draw any conclusions and I don't know anyone who has. Sounds like a thesis project to me!”
I suggest, in all fairness to him, overcup oaks in central Illiunois are usually street/specimen trees since central Illinois is outside their range according to many sources. However, they not only grow well in this part of the state, they thrive.
Fishman ... I believe this is your 2021 post .... "
3-28-2021 … Fishman posted … “What do the acorns look like on your overcups? I have grown them for a few years now, but have always collected acorns from trees from a local wildlife management area that routinely floods. The acorns are like the acorns on the right in the photo below. The cap usually covers almost the entire acorn and the pericarp/shell is very thick. Last fall I found an apartment complex that used overcups as landscaping trees (emphasis added). A couple of the trees dropped a lot of acorns into November and the acorns are on the left in the photo. The caps are not as thick, do not extend that far down the acorn, and the pericarp is not that thick.”
In response I would suggest, without DNA analysis, we probably couldn't tell their parentage; however, perhaps those street/specimen trees could, since purchased from a nursery, be hybrids. Overcups, as you know, are an outstanding tree for a climate of the deep south.
- to be continued -
 
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2nd, overcup oak trees - including hybrids (yes, they hybridize with several other white oak species) can have lots of characteristics which make them a great tree for for many locations and especially in zones like 5 and the lower half of 4.
A cross with a bur oak is likely to be cold hardy, tolerant of wet feet on a frequent basis, easy to grow, great in clay soils, very easy to store through stratification and productive with regard t6o larger acorns that deerf will eat. The following sources will provide lots of good info....
https://www.srs.fs.usda.gov/pubs/misc/ag_654/volume_2/quercus/lyrata.htm USDA
“In flooded areas the acorns remain dormant over winter and germinate in the spring after the surface waters recede, making overcup acorns one of the few of the white oak group that do not germinate until spring (10).” “In tests, overcup oak survived continuous flooding for at least two growing seasons.” “ In spite of its natural occurrence on wet clay sites, overcup oak grows best on sites with better drainage and soil texture (10).”
Overcup oak develops a shallow, saucer-shaped root system. The heavy clay soils and wet sites where overcup oak typically grows restrict root development to relatively shallow depths. Although the seedlings initially produce taproots, these are replaced by a lateral root system. The root system of one large tree consisted of many small branching roots with no large main roots.
Quercus lyrata hybridizes with Q. alba; Q. durandii; Q. bicolor (Q. x humidicola Palmer), Q. macrocarpa (Q. x megaleia Laughlin); Q. michauxii (Q. x tottenii Melvin); Q. stellata (Q. x sterrettii Trel.); and Q. virginiana (Q. x comptoniae Sarg.) (8).

OVERCUP OAK
3-2021 Lucky P posted … “I have two SWOxOvercup hybrid selections that have been given to me over the years - one from Osage City KS, the other from Columbia MO. Have them grafted on SWO understock. Leaves are sort of intermediate, but most resemble the SWO parent. Acorns look like a small overcup acorn, almost completely enclosed in cap, born in twos on a long peduncle, like SWO... and the acorn 'shell' is not as 'corky' as overcup, so I doubt they'd float like overcup. They do germinate late, like overcup.”
-tbc -
 
more sources ...
OVERCUP OAK
https://www.indefenseofplants.com/blog/2020/9/7/the-overcup-oak
"As such, overcup oak acorns lay dormant for months until some environmental cue(s) signals enough time has passed. . It can also make an excellent specimen tree in all but the driest of south-central North American soils. Also, because it is an oak, this incredible species is also chock full of wildlife value, making it an important component of the ecology wherever it is native."
OVERCUP OAK
FL https://nwdistrict.ifas.ufl.edu/hor...the-best-landscape-tree-youve-never-heard-of/
“Finally, Overcup Oak is among the easiest to grow landscape trees. We have already discussed its ability to tolerate wet soils and our blazing heat and humidity, but Overcups can also tolerate periodic drought, partial shade, and nearly any soil pH. They are long-lived trees and have no known serious pest or disease problems.” “They transplant easily from standard nursery containers or dug from a field (if it’s a larger specimen), making establishment in the landscape an easy task.”
OVERCUP OAK
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi31Nma86CCAxU3AHkGHd-LBhI4ChAWegQIBxAB&url=https://eec.ky.gov/Natural-Resources/Forestry/state-nuseries-and-tree-seedlings/Documents/Oak,%20overcup.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1f6DIKOaBYAKnG2bx1-fgH&opi=89978449
“The trees can withstand significant flooding and poorly drained soils and are tolerant to drought and cold.”

Happy reading folks and gets youse selp some dem obercups!
If that's not enough reading try ... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8520779/ which is an article about "masting" or why it is a "mast year" in some locales. *--

********Several on this site have commented about the plethora of oak acorns they have observed in their area(s). The concept of masting is evoked as an explanation of an abundance of acorns/mast. While perhaps longer than many might enjoy, it is a quality read.

Chicago ... https://chicago.suntimes.com/2023/9/21/23883838/acorns-chicago-mast-year-oak-trees
 
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How much of a difference does the cap make to a deer? I was sitting in a stand the other day and had two young bucks under me crunching through Hickory nuts. They were just grinding them right up.
Really that surprises me as tough as hickory nuts are typically at least the smooth bark hickory I have at the house.
 
I found this page detailing a bur-overcup hybrid in Missouri. Is this where you got the acorns? The only difference I see with the hybrid and the overcups around here is the small amount of fringe around the acorn cap. Overcup leaves vary so much that I don't see a lot of bur influence in the leaves in the tree in the link.

Are the acorns in the photos you posted Sunday the ones you picked up earlier in October? It is interesting that they are already sprouting. Like you noted, overcups usually do not germinate in the fall. I made a mistake the first year I grew them and did not remove the cap. Some of the acorns did not germinate until July even though they were planted in early February.
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Fishman ... good looking acorns. Q1 No, Q2 Yes .... while the acorns we picked displayed an affinity toward the overcup species, the fact that they displayed smaller/shorter caps and fall germination would possibly be hybrid effects (bur oak influence). Given their propensity to overwinter easily (think stratification), I am going to try and get as many of the hybrid acorns and share them with anyone who would like to try a few ... 2-3 / 3-4 per person (depends on how many I can secure if any) sent in an envelope for the price of postage. If I can't get them this year, I'll be all over them next fall.
 
---------------I'm honked! The deer like chestnuts, the leaves from chestnut trees, and - in my case - the chance for a rub on a fairly large tree. This sucker hit multiple primary limbs on two chestnut trees. I'll wax his arse if he shows up when I'm in the house.
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Every once in a while you get lucky ... wife saw item she liked at estate sale ... went back Sat. to see if art item still there. Because of other errands to run, I went along. I walked into the garage and bingo .... there they were, 2 qts containers of Roundup concentrate - each at over one-half full. My concern is self life / potency BUT for $1 @, I could not say no (it was half price day). Will test it using heavier dosage before large spray effort in order to avoid wasted effort if turns out to be compromised. May try it straight out of the container for hack/squirt.
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