The Woods ... mistakes I'v made

[OakSeeds]

I am responsible for deer/turkey habitat development on a couple of properties. I try to share my successes/failures on this site and others in an attempt to share what has worked for me. The problem I encounter is that my posts remain on various threads and it's hard to remember where specific items are located when I want to direct someone to an earlier post .... and, 2nd, there is always the danger of being redundant. Consequently, I decided to try and place most of my observations on this single thread.
After I upload some photos to my computer, I'll start with discussing the use of columnar-white oak trees (Regal Prince and Crimson Spire) as interior screens (as opposed to road or property-line screens). I think they are marvelous and equal to, or better than, MG.

 

[OakSeeds]

Col. WO trees will make incredible interior screens ... a gift that will just keep on giving since they will provide hard mast as well as screens (wouldn't use them as a road or property line screen since they will eventually be a food source and attract deer). After 6/7 years, they will require much less maintenance than a MG plant (MG ultimately dies out from the center and has to be replanted .. essentially start over). Further, I have grown a couple to 6' + in less than 2.5 years (probably as much screen - or more - than a MG rhizome produces in equal time. All col. WOs are descendants of Columnar English Oaks; with 2 main hybrids available to plant. The Crimson Spire CWO is a cross between an Col EWO and a WO. The Regal Prince Col. WO is cross between a Swamp WO and a Col. EO. I believe each type has advantages; however, RP Col. WOs are clearly the better screening tree because of their denser branching structure. Crimson Spire may produce larger acorns than the RP... just what I have experienced BUT my sample size is rather small. RP is also less suscetible to powdery mildew. Attached are photos demonstrating acorns and leaves from the 2 types of Col. WOs to help people identify them and photos of young trees showing their structure.

 

[OakSeeds]

more photos... Col WOs

 

[OakSeeds]

just a couple more ...

 

[chickenlittle]

I am aware of columnar oaks but wasn't sure of their value or how to use. How do you choose where to put columnar oaks for a screen? Given that they may get to 30 or 50ft tall, they can throw significant shade like any hedgerow. Do they do well enough long term as a North-south line when planted close together and each tree shades the next? When they get shaded, do they retain the ground level branches? East-West line on the northern edge a property or field would seem best.

Would dwarf chinkapin oak or Alleghany chinkapin or hazelnut or blackberry or 12 rows of field corn work better if you wanted both food and screening? I guess each of those could end up as bedding but I can imagine a buck camping out in the sun in a columnar oak screen.

Interested to hear your take. Thanks for posting.

 

[OakSeeds]

Great discussion questions CL; excellent observation ... "East-West line on the northern edge a property or field would seem best". I only started using them as isolated trees (where I had limited space) until this year. I have a single row (E-W orientation) on the north edge of a woodlot with 1-yr trees planted 10' apart; again, it's internal with regard to property line and over time should become a living fence with partial screening. I have planted the 1st row of what will become a 2-row N-S living fence / screen since the 2nd row trees will be staggered/offset in relation to the 1st row ... with the two rows planted 15' apart and the individual trees planted 12' apart. I have a 3rd living fence 2 rows (N-S orientation) planted on the east end of a woodlot with again, staggered rows. Long before their height becomes any problem at 25-30+ feet, they will have served their purpose and provided mast as an ancillary benefit. On a 2-row N-S planting, one could always cut the central leader of the row on the east side at 10-12 feet and try to get more of a "typical" crown; I have no idea if that would work; however, I love to experiment ... check with me in 20 yrs :-). I have no idea of what effect any significant shading might have on lower-level branches; the branch structure should be dense enough by that time that even denuded of leaves, the partial screening effect would remain. How long the branches would last is anyone's guess.

You also asked, "Would dwarf chinkapin oak or Alleghany chinkapin or hazelnut or blackberry or 12 rows of field corn work better if you wanted both food and screening? I guess each of those could end up as bedding but I can (did you mean can't) imagine a buck camping out in the sun in a columnar oak screen."

All of these alternative trees, shrubs or crop(s) would provide an element of screening/food; however, corn is much more expensive and higher maintenance on an annual basis. Plus the leaves blow off of corn pretty rapidly after it dries in Sept-Oct; therefor, you would only have a decent screen for about 5 months (July 1 - Dec 1). Nothing wrong with the other trees/shrubs except blackberry canes can get pretty thin in winter. Hybrid hazelnuts (Arbor Day Foundation) are every bit as good for screens/food as Col.WO since they have higher levels of protein and carbs compared to acorns. On an individual plant basis, over time with regard to the size of the tree, I suspect Col. WOs would produce - by weight - greater amounts of mast. Finally, I could imagine planting 8-9 Col WOs in some sort of circle, V or J configuration in an open area with 2 or more escape openings that a buck might find quite attractive as a hide away from where folks usually encounter him. Right now I'm pretty interested in Col WOs; maybe in 5-6 years I'll say it was one of my mistakes (fits the title of my thread). Thanks for promoting the discussion.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

OakSeeds - I've not read of columnar oaks in any source before. They sound interesting. Where does one buy these ?? Assuming a 3 ft. tall whip at planting, how big would a col. oak get in 5 yrs. ?? 10 years ?? When do they start producing acorns ??

How long have you been growing col. WO's ??

 

[OakSeeds]

Crimson Spire / Street Spire (same hybrid) have been around much longer than the Regal Prince; hence, you might find CS specimen trees where you could collect acorns. I gathered my first CS acorns in the fall of 2015; unfortunately, the sources I used have aborted all acorns for the 2016/2017 falls (I assume it's weather related). I did find some newly planted CS trees this fall and was able to collect about 15 before the squirrels cleaned them out. Regal Prince trees old enough to produce significant numbers of acorns are hard to find since that cultivar has been on the market for a much shorter period of time. You can buy them as container trees; however, they are fairly expensive. I get RP acorns from a groundskeeper at an estate about 18 miles from my home. He hand picks them off the trees and delivers them to me; I give him $45/100 acorns ... since he takes the time/effort to get very fresh acorns and spends money for gas in bringing them to me. This is the 3rd fall I have gotten RP acorns and this year I bought 200. I prefer to direct seed some in the fall; however, it is very dry in the midwest at this time so I will probably place most in one of my mini-fridges and plant them early next spring. The issue of growth rates for different time intervals depends on a host of factors associated with how YOU plant/care for the new seedling(s). Good luck ... and try some columnar WO at your property.

 

[TreeDaddy]

Oakseeds,

I have not had success keeping white oak acorns in fridge over winter

Any tricks on keeping them viable ?

bill

 

[Bowsnbucks]

OakSeeds - We don't know what part of the country you're in. Are the col. WO's a northern tree, southern ?? I never heard of them around my area of Pa., so I have no source of acorns. I'd rather buy from a trusted nursery if one exists. Any tips ??

 

[OakSeeds]

BB ... the US Gov. lists no native range for Col. WOs (remember they are hybrids including one parent that is a non-native tree). Since Crimson Spire is part White oak, they should do OK/well within the range of native white oaks. Regal Prince probably will thrive in the native range of swamp white oaks (see ... www.na.fs.fed.us/spfo/pubs/silvics_manual/volume_2/quercus/bicolor.htm ) ... I would imagine both CS and RP would b e OK in plant hardiness zones 5 and higher. I doubt if you will find a commercial source of acorns; the nurseries are busy cranking out trees since the appear to be a strong seller. Bill, I've stored acorns in the fridge in plastic bags (sandwich bags) with air holes and moist paper towels and in bags with moist sphagnum as a preserving environment. I've also stored acorns in plastic and metal containers with holes in the plastic top(s) for entry of air. I don't worry much about overall viability of all the acorns in the spring since I have direct seeded some in the fall when I acquired acorns and I always buy way more than I expect to germinate. Acorns are free (if I gather) or inexpensive (when I have to buy them). In the spring, I use a warming system to force acorns to germinate; I only plant acorns in the spring that have shot a radicle ... if I lose 35-40 % of 200 acorns it isn't a big deal. The key to overwintering white oak/chestnut acorns is to keep them damp enough to avoid dehydration, but dry enough to avoid mold problems. Sorry I can't tell you precisely where to get them (short of finding a tree with acorns). Maybe others who have an interest in col. WOs can contribute their insights.

"Swamp white oak occurs mainly in the Midwestern states from Iowa, Missouri, eastern Kentucky, and southern Wisconsin east to New York, Pennsylvania, Connecticut, and Massachusetts. Isolated populations occur northward in Minnesota, other New England states, and Quebec and Ontario, and southward to Tennessee, Virginia, and North
Carolina. For current distribution, please consult the Plant Profile page for this species on the plants". I would think optimal locations for RP might be zones 5-7 (I've seen references that say hardy zones 4-9). Areas with extreme heat / little rainfall probably won't support RP very well.
One other note: when I gather acorns I almost always get them as fresh as possible by picking them off the tree and getting them cold as soon as possible ... retains viability.

 

[willy]

I love the idea of oaks as screens but a situation to ponder prior to going that route is in my opinion the deer density of the area one plans to plant oaks for screens. It would not work in my area of high deer density. The trees would only make it if they were fenced in and that makes it cost prohibitive. I had to fence in hybrid willows that I planted around my box blinds as the deer wouldn't leave them alone.

I have resorted to planting miscantus gigantus x for a screen with a cedar row planted 6 feet away from the grass screen. The deer have not touched the grass nor the cedars and I have yet to see any use of the cedars as far as browse. I have seen an occasional rubbed cedar but that has been rare. The grass has a 20 yr life expectancy according to maple river farms that sell the rhizomes and red cedars grow about a foot a year in poor conditions so by the time the grass gives it up the cedars will be able to fill the role greatly.

On my farm I have planted hybrid willows and poplars for screens the deer browse/rub them to death or keep them about 2-3' high. At this time sun hemp and sudex sorghum are planted together for an immediate screen. Next year I will plant corn where this is and the following year the miscantus will take over the role completely based on how well it has done in its first year.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Thanks OakSeeds. I understand that they're hybrids, but don't know of any that I've seen growing anywhere to pick up any acorns. I can't say I've ever seen an oak that looked columnar in shape. That's why I asked if they favored northern or southern climates. They're completely new to me.

They look like they'd have some great applications for food/screens.

 

[OakSeeds]

BB ... Root's Nursery on Lancaster Rd in Manheim PA sells several columnar WO trees; don't know how close that is to you. Interestingly enough, their web site says they sell only CWOs that have a 5" caliper or larger; you may want to check to see if they grow any on site. If so, they may have trees that have begun producing acorns. If they are ordering from a supplier, any trees they bring in after the middle/end of Aug. might have a few acorns. Thought this info might be useful to you. Good luck

 

[Bowsnbucks]

Thanks, OakSeeds. Roots is about a 45 - 50 minute drive. I'll give them a call & get more info. If they have 3/4" to 1" caliper trees, I'd buy a couple. I have a spot in mind at camp to plant some col. WO's. They'd be perfect.

 

[OakSeeds]

BnB ... Hey, how about an early Xmas present ... you pay the $7.50 for priority-flat-rate-box shipping and I'll cover the cost of 25 Regal Prince acorns that have been float-tested and hydrated. Your suggestion that you might buy a couple of RP trees told me you would really like to have a few. Since they are pretty expensive to buy, I thought I should help you get some acorns. Better yet the parent tree providing these acorns has only dropped about 15-20% of the ones above where my groundskeeper friend picked these. Free acorns off a quality tree that is hard to find. If you want them, send me a mailing address and I'll pop em in the mail by Wed.

 

[OakSeeds]

I envy the folks that say they can protect a plant/tree with a small piece of wire and one small stake/post. Maybe I just have mean or aggressive deer, but if I don't provide good protection, my trees don't do very well. For example, the first two photos show red oaks planted on the same day 6-7 years ago. The RO in photo 1 never had anything bigger than the 2.5' cage surrounding it; deer kept it very small. The 20+' RO in the 2nd photo always had adequate protection for the critical first 3-4 yrs when it grew tall enough that the central leader was out of reach for the deer. The 3rd & 4th photos show how well deer like mulberry in the summer, even when it is caged. The last photo indicates they like plums! Go figure.

 

[Bowsnbucks]

OakSeeds - Post #16 ........... Thanks for the offer, but I'm looking for trees that already have a few years' growth on them. Many of the guys in my camp are older and we haven't the luxury of years of time. I've messed around with grafting some apple trees & growing a few from seed, but they were a side project to the bulk of our apple and crab plantings. Those were 4 to 6 ft. tall when we bought & planted them. If I can find some col. oaks that are 4 to 6 ft. tall with a good root system, I might be able to talk the camp members into trying a few. The members vote on what we want to plant.

Thanks very much for the offer though. I appreciate it, as well as your info on these varieties of trees.

 

[DLH]

These columnar oaks are very interesting. I had problems finding information on them and even harder finding trees with acorns being almost non existent. How are these grown commercially? Do they have to be grafted or will they retain the columnar form grown from seed? I think these would be used more for habitat if acorns could be had easier or bare roots. Do you know where to find acorns easily or do you have to find a columnar tree to gather from?

 

[OakSeeds]

DLH
Quercus Robur fastigiata (col. english oak) was discovered in Germany in the 18th Century; how it became known as the columnar ENGLISH oak - I don't know. Around 1785 it was propagated via grafting and became more widespread in use. Since it is not indigenous to the U.S., it obviously must have been imported. The first hybrid version of the col. English oak was a cross between an white oak and a col. english oak ... the Crimson Spire or Street Spire mentioned above. While it is columnar early on, it's shape becomes more oval/pyramid later on. It's a pretty prolific acorn thrower that retains most of it's leaves well into winter. Unfortunately, it is quite susceptible to powdery mildew. A fellow in Jacksonville, IL back crossed a col. english oak with a swamp oak (actually several) in the 1970s. I believe he finally got the Regal Prince established and received a patent around 2012. The Regal Prince (col. EO X SWO) has a much denser branching structure, retains more of its columnar shape over time, doesn't have problems with powdery mildew, and last - some say - is more attractive. It too tends to retain it's leaves well into winter and, from my experience, holds it's acorns much later than the crimson spire. That makes sense, since white oaks and english oaks (the hybrid parents of Crimson Spire) tend to be some of the earliest droppers among the white oak family.
Commercially, I suspect both hybrids are propagated via seeds/acorns; the reason you don't find many Regal Prince hybrids spitting acorns is due to their relative newness .. they ain't been around too long. Not all of the acorns from a col. oak tree (CS or RP) may demonstrate the columnar shape (have seen estimates of 65-80%); the columnar parent might have cross pollinated with a non-columnar oak tree. Consequently, I am planting many of my col. WO acorns in my in -ground containers to check their branching structure for a year or two before transplanting them. Any direct seeded into a final location with include planting 2 acorns (from two different trees) about 18" apart (try to hedge my bet so to speak - save the best one). The photos of CS and RP in the second post above show the quite distinctive differences between the leaves and acorns of the two hybrid columnar white oaks. I posted them to help others learn to identify the 2 trees. Hope this info helps. One other note ... you won't find these trees in the woods; they will most likely be specimen trees in town .. look in new subdivisions and around schools, churches, commercial buildings and government offices. Good luck!