Persimmon

[Corey Peterson]

Anybody growing any persimmons? I just order some american persimmon as part of the county conservation commission fund raiser that I plan to graft over. What varieties are good for human consumption? They aren't native in NH so I've never tried one. Thus far Prok, Meader and Yates have caught my eye but I'm sure there are other varieties out there.

 

[chickenlittle]

Corey,

I am working on persimmons. On our farm in PA (zone 6a), we had 3 mature trees between the house and barn, 2 female and a male tree. The male blew over a few years ago and has a bunch of young sprouts. Without good pollination, the females have not produced much and the persimmons are smaller. We have number of young seedlings around the barn. Dad moved one down into the pasture a while ago that is now 3-4" dbh and had its first persimmons last year. These persimmons tend to ripen very late and maybe not ripen fully before hard frost hits. Deer like them and will come in at night to check if any are on the ground.

Since I started this habitat thing, I have put together a plan to create a small persimmon and paw paw orchard from a old apple orchard that is now mostly black walnut and autumn olive...the fruit trees are long gone. I have purchased persimmon seedlings a couple years from Missouri MDC and those have done ok. I tried moving some of male sprouts but didn't get any to survive, maybe one. Last year I grew a some from seed and planted them in the fall.

I am getting some scions this spring that I plan to field graft onto some of the seedlings. I should get Yates, Prok, and Meader. Meader is supposed to be a NH selection. I also have H120 scions but I have not found any information on H120. I am looking for earlier varieties that ripen from August to early October. As I have more young persimmons to graft, I'll try some other varieties. I am not putting a major effort into them but will be happy if they turn out to be a great draw.

You can often find Asian persimmons in larger grocery stores. Those should give you a good idea what persimmons taste like.

 

[chickenlittle]

Here are some photos of my persimmon grafting success. 6 small seedlings got cleft grafts. 4 larger trees got bark grafted. I grafted with Yates, Prok, and Meader. I grafted about a month ago as the persimmons were just starting to leaf out and bark slipped easily. I used PVC grafting tape on most but used an old roll of electrical tape on the largest tree, about 4" in diameter at the level I made the bark grafts. I used toilet bowl wax to cover the scion and tape. The ones out in the open got an aluminum foil sun shield. One young tree was hard to find since my father mowed it off before I could graft. It took nicely to the cleft graft and got a cage to protect it from the mower. The scionwood looked dormant after 2 weeks but another 2 weeks found all had leafed out or were swelling buds. Except for the largest tree, these trees are between the barn and house and are too close together to have them all grow to maturity. These are early varieties so having them here will be nice and this gives me scionwood to graft into my future persimmon orchard. I'll look for scionwood for some later maturing varieties next spring.

Mowed off tree with cleft


Cleft grafts under a blueberry bush

another cleft graft under a blueberry bush


single bark graft on a small tree 1" or so diameter


A couple bark grafts on a 2" tree


2 bark grafts on the largest tree, about 4" diameter at the height of the bark graft

 

[Corey Peterson]

Looking good! I've got 10 whips started in my nursery along with a bag a 100 seeds some of which are starting to poke up. I also bought a Yates persimmon that is about 4ft tall that I hope to get some budwood off this summer assuming the small whips get big enough by august.

 

[chickenlittle]

Photos of my grafts at the end of September.

Cleft grafted onto one that was accidently mowed off last spring, now about 5ft tall.


One on the right is a good bark graft. I left a nurse branch on until recently or it might have grown more. The one on the left had 2 bark grafts that both got snapped off mid-summer. Should have tied to the bamboo...


Great growth on a cleft graft.




Two more bark grafts showing nice growth, photo of them together and then close-ups of the graft unions. Amazes me how thick the grafts grew

 

[TMIL]

We have lots of persimmons. They are everywhere here. On my little 40 there are 6 big mature producing trees, another 6-8 that have been making small amounts of fruit for a couple years, and I noticed fruit on 3 young trees for the first time this year. My problem is that there's persimmon everywhere around, so that limits the drawing power for me. You guys who can get them going in areas that don't have them will surely be very pleased.

 

[yoderjac]

My wild American persimmons are fine for human consumption. Named varieties may have slightly different taste, but I personally don't notice a huge difference. I would say that as far as taste goes, a lot has to do with personal preference.

Just keep in mind that growing persimmons will usually take 8-10 years to produce. You may cut a few years off by grafting, but not a lot. Grafting to well established rootstock (1"-5" in diameter) can produce the first fruit in the third leaf. He is an example of an exception:

I got this scion from Todd (DogDoc) and grafted it to this tree. This tree is only in its second leaf and already producing persimmons. I've grafted over 100 native trees and this is the only one to produce in its second leaf.

On the other end of the spectrum, I started by converting my native male trees to female by grafting scions from some of my native female trees. These trees took off like wildfire vegetatively. Only one of the produced a single persimmon in the 4th leaf. The rest have produced nothing so far. In their defense, we did have a cicada hatch in their second leaf which set them back.

I'm using persimmons primarily for deer, but the varieties I'm working with are listed in this thread: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.p...ties-for-deer-transfered-from-old-forum.5564/

Thanks,

Jack

 

[pointer]

We have lots of persimmons. They are everywhere here. On my little 40 there are 6 big mature producing trees, another 6-8 that have been making small amounts of fruit for a couple years, and I noticed fruit on 3 young trees for the first time this year. My problem is that there's persimmon everywhere around, so that limits the drawing power for me. You guys who can get them going in areas that don't have them will surely be very pleased.

I am hoping that's the case! I don't have the time and am just too lazy to do the grafting, but I can get 100 seedlings from the state DNR for $35, so I plan on planting some this spring. I plan on planting them in groups of 5 or more for pollination. Are you guys finding that they'll not get browse/rubbed without cages? If that's the case, I may buy 200! :D

 

[chickenlittle]

I have had some damage to unprotected persimmon seedlings from either deer or rabbits.

 

[yoderjac]

I don't get any significant browsing of persimmons and they are not a favored rub tree in my area. I'm not saying deer won't ever mess with them anywhere but I don't protect mine. I do have to protect chestnuts but not persimmons. I have had rabbits kill small seedlings, so that may or may not be an issue for you. I probably would not protect inexpensive common persimmon seedlings. Pointer, persimmons are insect pollinated. If you are in the native range of persimmons, you won't likely need to worry about pollination. Keep in mind (if you didn't know) that persimmons are dioecious. Only female trees bear fruit. So, if you are buying seedlings from DNR only a certain percentage will be female. If you are not in the range of native persimmon, you will need at least one male tree. The rest of the male trees you get you can convert by grafting. My native common persimmon take 8-10 years on average to produce fruit and some even longer. If you are willing to wait, persimmons can be a great wildlife tree for soft mast. Unless you buy grafted trees (or graft them yourself) you won't know if persimmons are male or female until they are old enough to flower. Males tend to have clusters of small flowers originating from the same point on the stem. Female trees have larger flowers with only a single flower originating from a point on the stem. On a rare occasion you will find persimmon trees that don't quite know which bathroom to use. Interestingly enough, they are called "perfect" trees. They have both male and female branches.

My project with persimmons is to feed deer across a wide time span. Many named varieties were selected for early production. I'll be using those to cover earlier periods. My native persimmons typically fall in October and November. By trading scions with folks from across the country, I'll end up with trees that don't drop until December through February. Keep in mind that in my case, fruit comes much faster. Because I have many native persimmons growing on my farm, I cut down trees in the 1-5 inch diameter class and graft female scions to them with know characteristic. So, typically I see fruit starting in 3 or 4 years verses 8-10 years. One advantage of planting persimmons is that you can position the trees where you want them.

One more note. Persimmons have a long tap root. So unless you are direct seeding them or starting them from seed in root pruning containers, they don't transplant real well. That is not to say that none of the DNR trees will take. It is simply that you will have losses.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[pointer]

Thanks for the info. I am within the native range of the persimmon. Though I haven't found any trees on our property, I know they are around as the neighbors get them from folks occasionally to make pudding. I'll probably try them uncaged and see how they do. The ones that make it after the first year might get screen around the trunk for rabbit protection, though we don't seem to have a whole lot of those. I'll probably put a good portion of them around a larger, destination, type food plot and along another hayfield. The plots we hunt over the most are in a powerline ROW so I won't plant any there, but have a couple of spots off the ROW that will probably get a few. Again, thanks for the info.

 

[yoderjac]

Just a couple thoughts. I also have a ROW where I can't plant trees, but I find the edges of the ROW are ideal for persimmons. They get good light there and seem to occur there naturally as well. I was originally planning to leave a few water sprouts below the graft so a tree would have some male branches for pollination. An old grafter told me not to worry about it. If there are persimmons in the general area, there are likely male trees that you don't know about. He sure was right. I have some other trees that look very similar to persimmons. I found that they don't leaf-out in the spring at the same time as persimmons and persimmons are quite unique in the early leaf stages. Once I was able to differentiate, I found I had a lot of small persimmon trees growing all over the farm. Basically any time an area was open to sun, persimmons would grow. I'm on a pine farm, so the pines would soon out grow them and shade them out. They would only persist around the edges where they got light. Many animals eat persimmon and distribute the seed in their scat. So, I no longer worry about having males for pollination. Any time I see a candidate tree, I graft it. I don't wait to find out if it is male or female. When I bark graft a tree, I know what the characteristics of the resulting tree will be.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Native Hunter]

Anybody growing any persimmons? I just order some american persimmon as part of the county conservation commission fund raiser that I plan to graft over. What varieties are good for human consumption? They aren't native in NH so I've never tried one. Thus far Prok, Meader and Yates have caught my eye but I'm sure there are other varieties out there.

Several people say that the "Morris Burton" cultivar is the best for eating. I planted two young ones this spring and one has a small crop of persimmons already. They are beginning to turn yellow but not ripe yet. My guess is another two weeks to ripen.

I have several native trees that start dropping in November, and planted some seedlings from another state a few years ago. Some of those seedling have a first crop this year. Two of those are very early ripening. I had ripe persimmons on those two weeks ago. I was happy about that because of the extended drop time it adds.

I have also planted two other cultivars that will likely start producing next year. One is "Miller" which drops in October in my area. The other is "Deer Magnet" which drops in November here. Once everything starts bearing, I should be dropping persimmons from Mid September through January.

I also grafted some persimmon scions from a friend in Oklahoma this spring. They grew well, but unfortunately a wind storm broke all off but on one tree. Next year I will re-graft the ones that broke off, and this time I will cut some of my native cane (bamboo) and brace the young shoots to protect them from wind for the first couple of years.

Morris Burton is from Indiana. I'm not sure how far north it would grow, but if you are looking for a good eating persimmon it could be worth checking on. The fruit is nearly twice as large as any of the native persimmons here.

Good luck....

 

[NE PA QDM]

Do you guys typically wrap window screen around the trunks to protect from mice or vole damage? Or is this not as important as with apple trees?
My persimmon are all in tubes. I planted 25 with tubes and 25 without. Our local deer browsed the unprotected trees nearly to death, so now they're all tubed. Just wasn't sure about rodent damage.
Thanks

 

[Native Hunter]

Do you guys typically wrap window screen around the trunks to protect from mice or vole damage? Or is this not as important as with apple trees?
My persimmon are all in tubes. I planted 25 with tubes and 25 without. Our local deer browsed the unprotected trees nearly to death, so now they're all tubed. Just wasn't sure about rodent damage.
Thanks

So far I haven't seen a persimmon girded, but I'm now putting window screen on any new ones I plant. I'm also going back as soon as possible and screening some apple and pear trees. I had two apple trees damaged really bad last winter, so not taking any chances.

 

[yoderjac]

Do you guys typically wrap window screen around the trunks to protect from mice or vole damage? Or is this not as important as with apple trees?
My persimmon are all in tubes. I planted 25 with tubes and 25 without. Our local deer browsed the unprotected trees nearly to death, so now they're all tubed. Just wasn't sure about rodent damage.
Thanks

I don't. I have not seen any damage to my native persimmons so I didn't bother. I have had no issue with planted persimmons so far.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[Corey Peterson]

Thanks guys for the info I've got 10 whips in my nursery but they didn't put a ton of growth on this year. I also picked up a Yates persimmon but I don't think it grew an inch overntne summer.

 

[chickenlittle]

Excited to see that the grafts I showed above in 2016, yates, Prok, and Meader now have fruit on them. Took a while considering these were good size ones that I grafted onto. Now I get to see how long these hang in the fall.