Maximizing Chestnut Growth with Rootmakers - Transfered from QDMA forum

ROS VEGAS;802779 said:
Thanks jack/matt.
I have been growing american chestnuts for the past couple years with mixed success. I figured it is time to start doing it the right way.
I have followed most of your threads.....I think you have a better handle on growing chestnuts than The American Chestnut Foundation.
Time to go all in and get the proper equipment/setup.
Inexpensive shop lights with regular fluorescent bulbs are very cost effective. Spend your effort on adjustability so you can keep adjusting them to keep them close to your trees rather than on expensive fancy lights.
Use express trays for your 18s so you can reorganize chestnuts according to height. This also helps with light adjustability.
Use a well drained professional soilless mix. You can water too much with this and rootmakers but you can water too often.
Unless you know your water chemistry is right, start thinking about how to collect rain water and to store and use it indoors in the winter.
I bought a whole-house atomizing humidifier that I tied into the plumbing. Instead of venting it into my duct work, I vent it directly into the basement. I have a rotating fan blowing at the output vent to distribute the humidity through the basement. I believe humidity is good but it is a second order factor.
Keep your ambient heat between 70 and 80.
Use a fan to get good stem flex indoors, but use it for short periods. It can dry out leaves and kill trees if used too much.
I am experimenting with bottom heat. I used it for Pawpaw last year and it worked very well. I'm going to try it with some chestnuts this year.
Hope that helps,
Jack
 
mattpatt;802825 said:
My approach is a little different than Jack's as I grow strictly outdoors. So about a month before my last frost date I take the chestnuts out of the fridge and start trying to get them to germinate by placing in damp long leaf sphagnum peat. Once they germinate they go into Express RM18s with Promix BX as the potting medium. There they will stay until the first of July where when I transplant into one gallon root pouches where they stay for the rest of the year until they go dormant. As for water, I use to worry about it but now I've gone to using a RV water filter and water from the tap. I also use Miracle Grow Orchid fertilizer every month or so to combat iron deficiency and help with soil acidity.
Matt
Ross,
And that is the reason there is not "started kit". There are principles and good practices and can be applied quite differently depending on your situation. Matt is in TX and had a longer growing season. I live in VA. Starting them indoors in the winter is a great cabin fever remedy for me and that head-start helps. That may not apply in Matt's situation.
So, I'd say read the threads and understand the principles and apply them to your situation.
Thanks,
Jack
 
mattpatt;803076 said:
Jack,
It got up to 97F here today. Crazy weather. Our average high is usually around the mid 70s by this time of the year.
Matt
BUCKINTRADITION;805414 said:
Jack,
I have been getting 36 " high flags at my local Rural King. These flags are like duct tape to a QDMAer. The added height really aids in visibility. I use them in my hinge cut planning, food plot layout and now I guess for staking my spindly trees. Thanks for the tip there . Here is an online link
http://www.ruralking.com/blackburn-rural-king-red-survey-flags-5-x-8-36-survey-flag.html?___SID=U
 
I happened to drive past this tree this morning and saw that it is starting to bud out:
1348b8c3-a575-481b-a5ca-647bbb6a7c99.jpg

Thanks,
Jack
 
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Alg0124;833992 said:
I wanted to share my first attempt at growing Dunstans with everybody since so far it's going pretty well. I've taken as much information from all the QDMA posts as I could find and used what I would consider the "best" methods (in my opinion) that have been used and discussed here by others. I’d like to say thank you to everyone in the chestnut community for taking the time to share their experiences and knowledge (especially Jack for his numerous posts!), which has made this a great and enjoyable project for me.

Here we go….
1. Stratified Dunstan seeds in moist peat in a slightly ventilated Rubbermaid container in the refridgerator for 90 days (started October 22). Most of the radicles were only 1/4" long (just starting) when I removed them from the peat.
2. Planted them in Promix HP with Biofungicide and Mycorrhizae in RM-18s on January 28th, placed around 15 or so pellets of Osmocote Plus evenly at the seed level and then covered seeds with about 1/2" of Promix.
3. Continued to top water with either melted snow or rain water every 4-5 days until tallest plants were around 6" tall. Then began bottom watering every 3 days to ensure complete saturation of the RM18s.
4. Constructed a table with a wire top, then made a light hanging fixture above the table. Used (4) 4' shop lights (for 5 RM18 trays) with T8 bulbs of the 6400K type since I believe it mimics daylight better than the other options available at my local hardware store. They also use less power than the T12s. Lights hang from small chains, which can be adjusted at roughly 1/2" intervals.
5. I will begin transplanting from RM18s into 1 gallon Root Pouches on April 22 (13 weeks after planting), although the plan was to do so around May 1 at 14 weeks (last frost date). I think that they've run out of room in the RM18s already.
6. Around April 8th, I purchased (3) additional RM18 trays to spread the trees out because the leaves were choking each other due to all the competition in a tight space. There is a picture below that shows the spacing I used to allow for less competition, and I'm not sure if you can see in the pictures, but I believe the trees look healthier. The tallest (on the left) is 26” tall at 11 weeks after planting.
7. Here are some pictures (in order), they will be in two posts since only (4) pictures are allowed per post:
0%20DCs%2002-02-2016Planted%20in%20RM18s_zps4lopivmr.jpg~original

1%20DCs%2002-20-2016Initial%20Top%20Growth_zpseofh1j5j.jpg~original

2%20DCs%2002-29-2016First%20Leaves_zpscwhm5im5.jpg~original

3%20DCs%2003-16-2016RM18%20Spacing%20Getting%20Tight_zps6mufk9oi.jpg~original
Alg0124;833993 said:
Pictures Continued…..
4%20DCs%2003-29-2016RM18%20Spacing%20amp%20Choking%20Trees_zpszf8g9yzx.jpg~original

5%20DCs%2004-08-2016Larger%20Spacing_zpsk0gbliwf.jpg~original

6%20DCs%2004-08-2016Larger%20Spacing%20amp%20Leaves%20Get%20More%20Light_zpsu03xq2rf.jpg~original

7%20DCs%2004-11-2016Leaves%20Spread%20Out%20amp%20Table%20View_zpsh1g0rl1h.jpg~original

-Andrew
Alg0124;833995 said:
I will continue to update this thread as my chestnut project matures and will be sure to share any lessons learned with everyone.
Again, thank you all for sharing your experiences and knowledge on the subject!
-Andrew
Murdog;834001 said:
Gator - was wondering what happened with these trees??? Theoretically one might assume that the rootmaker containers would just keep pushing roots??? Did any of these make it? just curious
wbpdeer;834002 said:
Alg0124
Your seedlings look great. Welcome to the forum.
Thanks for sharing. Be time to get them planted before too long unless you are going to carry thru the summer.
:) Keep up the good work.

Gator;834008 said:
I'll have to check. Sad thing is I'm fairly certain they are all still in RM18s. I did look at them the other day but not close, just remembered that they hadn't budded out. I have a couple in 1G but not sure right off what type of trees they are. I really dropped the ball last year.
My chinese chestnuts I'm growing this year aren't doing all that hot. Ever since I expanded and had to move to the basement for more room I haven't done as well. I believe its a combination of out of sight out of mind and much cooler temps.
wbpdeer;834220 said:
Jack,
That is an excellent photo of the chestnut tree budding out. It is always great to see out efforts payoff with seedlings budding out.
Tennessee has turned the corner - we got many days of mid 70's forecasted.
All you see going down the street is landscape trailers packed with zero turn mowers. Green is good & things are happening fast. Thanks for sharing the photo.
 
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Alg0124;836264 said:
Can anyone talk to how they transplant from RM18s to 1 gallon pots? I'm actually using the 1 gallon Root Pouch, but I'm sure the process is the same for the RM2s.
Basically, I transplanted 9 trees last night into pretty moist (more wet) Promix HP. I wasn't sure if I should dunk the entire 1 gallon root pouch to ensure complete saturation or if I should top water only. I also wasn't sure if dunking would compromise the smaller air pockets within the mix needed for root growth or if it is required to ensure the mix is completely settled in the pot.
What process do you guys use during the initial transplanting process?
Thanks!
Andrew
Andrew,
I've used two methods to extract the tree from the express cell. I use RB2s. I first fill an RB2 with my mix so that when I place an 18 inside it, the top of the 18 is just above the top of the RB2. Next, I extract the tree.
With most trees, if you are transplanting at the right time and your mix moisture is reasonable, you can simply pull on the stem. The entire root ball should come out in one piece. If chunks of mix are falling off or staying in the 18, you are on the early side for transplanting.
With some trees with more tender trunks and roots, pulling on trunk can cause some root breakage. If I'm concerned, I use the second extraction method. I dunk the entire cell in a bucket of water. I then place my hand over it with the trunk between my fingers. I invert the cell and give it a good shake. It will generally come right out of the 18 into your hand.
I then turn it over. Regardless of how I extracted it, I hold it by the trunk in the middle of the RB2 with the bottom of the rootball just touching the mix. I then use my other hand to scoop up more mix and dump it around the root ball. I do only slight compression around the outsides to set the rootball and add more mix. I fill my RB2s so they are slightly heaping in the middle. I then dunk them. If there is enough settling, I add more mix to the top.
I have not used root pouches, so I can't speak to them.
By the way, I mix my promix 50/50 with mini pine bark nuggets. This bulk keeps the mix from compressing too much.
Thanks,
Jack
 
Alg0124;837002 said:
Thanks Jack.
So far I've repotted 27 of my dunstans. I haven't used the mini pine bark nuggets, but I might head out this weekend to see if I can find some locally and use that in the remaining 53 trees that still need to be repotted.
In terms of the rootball coming out of the RM18s, everything looks well developed and not much (if any) mix falls off below the seed.
I think I could have done a little better when initially planting the seeds by dunking the RM18s and letting everything settle first, then placing the seed on top. I probably lost an 3/4 inch where the mix had settled after a few waterings. I did cover the seeds after the settling, but it appears that not much happened above the seed height in terms of root growth.
So the only mix that falls off when removing the trees from the RM18s is from above the seed (which is okay since I'm not removing the seeds as I transplant). I don't think it will affect the trees much now, but I wonder how much more growth I could've gotten in the first growing season had the roots had 20-25% more root growth in the RM18s.....
Thanks again!
-Andrew
 
Alg0124;837543 said:
I'm just about done with my re-potting efforts, only 28 more to go!
So I thought about putting all my dunstans outdoors under a food tent to allow them to acclimate to the sun for a week or two. Then I looked at the weather forcast.....
With lows in the low to mid 40's at night, I thought that might be too cold for trees who have never seen anything below 60 degrees indoors.
Has anyone tried temperatures that extreme with their seedlings? I figure growth may have slowed with such low temperatures, but really I didn't want to risk killing them.
This weekend looks much more promising with lows into the low 50's and highs in the 70's all next week. So they'll finally be getting some sun this weekend!
You won't kill them with night time lows in the 40s. Growth slows down when the get the cooler temps, but I'd put them out sooner than later. It is pretty easy to sun scorch the leaves. I pushed them too quickly this year and hurt a few. The longer you wait, the more intensity the sun has. I'd get them under your tent as soon as possible. Try to set it up so they get a couple hours of early morning sun followed by filtered sun and shade in the afternoon.
Thanks,
Jack
 
Alg0124;837753 said:
Thanks Jack!
I'll try to get them out over the next day or two and post a few pictures showing how everything is set up. I should be able to get good morning and afternoon sun with the tent providing the shade through the middle of the day.
Shade the afternoon sun side.
 
Alg0124;838745 said:

Picture taken in the evening.
I plan on replacing the top of the tent with a sun shade tarp. It's basically a tarp with a screened material instead of a solid piece of woven plastic. This will allow for some rain to get through, and also provide more control while the trees become acclimated to the direct sunlight.
The sun shade is available in different amounts of shade. I'm thinking middle of the road, and go with the 50% shade (starting in about a week). Anyone know if that's too much or too little sun? Right now, the trees get more sunlight from the right side (east) in the picture and less from the north and west (due to my garage and a neighbor's garage).
Alg0124;839325 said:
Thanks for all the tips!
I'm not sure why, but my picture disappeared on the post above, so here it is again....
Trees%20Under%20Tent%2005.08.2016_zps8zjfnzdc.jpg~original

I also found a little more information on the use of shadecloth on chestnut trees from the ACF here, see page 5 toward the bottom left (bullet #5):
http://www.acf.org/pdfs/resources/planting_manual.pdf
They say to use 30-50% shade cloth if you move your trees outdoors just after the threat of last frost.
I'll probably adopt the surveyor flags on a few of the tall ones also (great idea by the way!).
So far I see that the water does evaporate pretty quickly outside, much quicker than the RM18s, but I've gotten away with watering about every 4th day or so, which is good because I'm quickly running out of rain water in my IBC tote.
Has anyone else experimented with shade cloth? I'll report back with my results in a couple of weeks (unless I kill them all before then!!!) after I install the shade cloth on my tent's frame.
Also, I wanted to mention that I used the brightest bulb the local hardware store offered on my fixtures indoors. The bulbs were T8 and 6400K, which they called a "daylight" bulb. I thought it would help the trees acclimate a little quicker/better.
 
CAS_HNTR;838747 said:
When I transition them, I always end up losing a handful of mine.....it either not enough watering, too much sun, or too much wind.
Once potted in 1 gallon bags, I find they need MORE water that the RM18s for the first month until they can get roots down deeper. Yours may need even more water to start as they are elevated vs on the ground like mine. I made this mistake again this year or a couple of them. You would think I would learn.
Then the wind......I like to support mine with surveyor flags as they can really get beat up on with the large leaves and wind. You don't realize how much a light breeze can toss them around, but it can be violent!
And sun.....more shade is best to start. If you do get sunny days, they will be toast the first week. I would imagine that just being outside in the shade is already more "light" than they got under the lights inside. They need some time. I did 3 weeks in shade/part sun before they were moves. I didn't lose any to sun but did lose some to the wind and a missed watering day.
Good luck.
Me too. I lost an unusually large number this year to the transition, but our weather has been precedent setting. I still have a plenty of healthy trees.
One more trick. I found that the big pink or orange survey flags tend to attract insects. Probably fine until the Japanese beetles arrive. I've taken to rolling mine around the shaft and then using a small piece of electrical tape to secure them. It is much smaller surface area to attract bugs and also flap against leaves.
Thanks,
Jack
 
It has been a while since I've posted an updated picture of the seedling:
ee7cd117-b548-4c9e-abd9-c2ff22c9b8a3.jpg

The tube is 5' for reference.
 
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Alg0124;839699 said:
It's May14th, and tonight's low is supposed to be 35 degrees with high winds and possible rain. I'd bet that may be approaching weather cold enough to do some damage to my seedlings. So far, there's no frost advisory, but I'll be taking precautions and wrapping a tarp around my tent's frame and possibly running a small heater to chase away any frost that wants to show up tonight.
roleksy;839737 said:
I have a frost advisory in Central Indiana for tonight.
knehrke;839759 said:
For what it's worth, I'm in Western New York and the temperature has gone as low as 34F since I put the trees out a week ago. So far, so good. I will cover tonight with threat of frost though. Also, I shaded some trees using a small tarp strung between a dog training table and a picnic table, but it hasn't seemed to make much difference. I wonder if the guys down South don't have a tougher time acclimating their trees to the sun, just because it's so much more intense? Even with the relatively chilly weather, I've seen a flush of growth since moving them to 1 gallon pots outside.
Alg0124;841461 said:
Latest on acclimating the trees to the outdoors....
We had a few nights get into the low 30's here with a frost advisory last week. I had sides for the tent, so I put them up and placed a small oil filled radiant heater in the tent and left it on all night. I put an outdoor wireless thermometer sensor inside and it said it stayed about 48-50 degrees inside the tent all night while the real outdoor temp bottomed out at 33 degrees.
I did end up purchasing a shade screen tarp from AM Leonard and put it over my tent's frame (it's 10' x 20'). It provides a 47% shade on 3 sides (South, North, and Top) of my tent. I also covered the evening sun side with a solid tarp. I had a few trees on that side begin to brown a little on the edges of some leaves when there was no protection from the sun (should've taken your advice Jack!!). It burned the leaves a little with only about 90 minutes of evening sunlight. The morning sun side has no shade screen and no solid tarp, so it receives direct light for the first few hours after sunrise.
I've had the sun shade on for two days. Each of those days the trees were in direct sunlight the whole day. So far no brown leaves and it looks like the trees have started to turn their leaves to collect even more light! The leaves look to be a much deeper shade of green.
I left the solid cover on the tent to block the mid-day sun for two weeks before removing it and adding the shade screen. Here's the initial setup:
Trees%20Under%20Tent%2005.08.2016_zps8zjfnzdc.jpg~original

The picture shows the sun being blocked by the solid tarp in the evening, with the shade screen on 3 sides.
Shade%20Screen%2005.22.2016_zpsbi2gmjme.jpg~original
mattpatt;841471 said:
Nice setup you got there. Not sure how many chestnuts you have but that looks like right about the perfect amount to keep you busy but not be too much of a burden. Like the table. I have two myself of similar construction but I made them 2.5' wide and 8 feet long. I grew 300+ last year but it was too much. Won't ever do that again. This year I have 4 Rootmaker flats going.
Matt
 
Alg0124;841486 said:
Thanks Matt!
My table is a 4' x 8' and there's a 4' support beam every 2' along the 8' side. The top is farm fence (4"x2" welded wire type) stapled to the table using electrical romex staples.
I started out with 88 chestnut seeds, and have 82 germinated and growing well on the table. I'd bet close to 100 could fit on the table, but it would be really tight spacing. I don't know how you did 300, that seems like a ton of work. Was that your first attempt at growing chestnut trees as well?
I got smart about watering toward the end of the indoor growing season (wish I would've thought of it sooner). I put some hooks on the table legs and stretched a tarp under the table so I could basically dunk each RM18 tray and throw it back on the table quickly. If the tarp is angled just right, you can place a 5 gallon bucket under it to collect all the dripping water and reuse it. It was much faster than holding each tray while it dripped back into my dunking tote.
I'm probably going to get some cinder blocks and 4 pallets to basically double the amount of table space compared to the current table. The tent is 10' x 8', so I can fit two rows of two pallets each. I'll leave a 2' aisle between the two rows so I can walk between them and make watering a little easier. The hope is to give each tree a little more space and to gather more light on the lower leaves.
I'll be sure to post some pictures once I have it all set up in a week or two.
wbpdeer;841499 said:
Andrew,
According to my math you have 93% germination on your chestnuts which is excellent. :D That means you have treated them just right. This is what we hope for but many times we settle for a lot less.
When you plant all of those seedlings - you got to protect them. Seedlings look very healthy.
Keep up the good work and thanks for sharing.
Alg0124;845833 said:
Update to my chestnut seedlings:
I've decided to keep the sun shade screen on the tent frame just a little bit longer than I originally wanted to because the lower leaves seemed to never get any direct sunlight. I didn't want them to burn once I spaced the trees out a little bit and the sun screen was removed.
I constructed another table top and re-arranged the trees according to height. Here are some pictures:
Trees%2006.12.2016_zpsdmnibaj5.jpg~original

Medium%20Trees%2006.12.2016_zpsxs3sdzov.jpg~original

Big%20Trees%2006.12.2016_zpsvvwboqyh.jpg~original

Little%20Trees%2006.12.2016_zpszpijmpnw.jpg~original

The tallest trees so far measured 37-38 inches in height from the top of the soil to the highest leaf. They're also starting to put on some trunk girth due to wind exposure toughening them up a bit.
I also noticed that the lower leaves were very droopy before I spaced them out on the two tables. After a few days with the extra space all the leaves have stood up and are wanting to collect more sunlight. Hopefully this makes them grow even faster!
I'm nervous to remove the sun screen in the next week or two. So far I haven't lost a single seedling. Every seed that germinated has grown into what you see in the pictures above. I'd be so disappointed if I burned them all in the same day!
Alg0124;847526 said:
Finally got around to taking down the tent frame this weekend. The trees were beginning to rub on the shade cloth laid across the top of the frame. We ended up stretching the shade screen between some 2x4's screwed to the privacy fence. I still worry that all the afternoon direct sun would do some damage or burn some of the trees, so I kept the shade screen above the trees. Should I take it down? Will too much direct afternoon sunlight still damage the seedlings?

broom_jm;847539 said:
That's a great-looking group of trees!
While it's tempting to keep doing exactly what you've been doing, the reality is that these trees can't be babied their entire life; they'll be planted in places without a sun screen, eventually. It's hard to argue with your results, though. :)
CAS_HNTR;847572 said:
Everything looks good all around.
I actually transplanted a few of my better ones from the 1 gallons. I put 2 trees in a 5 gallon bag.....it gives them quite a bit more room to grow, even with 2 in there. Planned on moving more, but I ran out of soil.
Alg0124;847691 said:
So when I got home yesterday and looked out the back window, I saw a bunch of seedlings scattered around. I immediately thought that the squirrels had gotten into them (although I had removed all but a few of the nuts when transplanting).
Then I saw that it was only the wind. The trees were getting top heavy enough to tip over the 1 gallon pots when the wind picked up enough. Thankfully, there was no real damage to any of the seedlings that had tipped over the side of the table.
To resolve this, I turned the tables over and installed a furring strip (1x2) every 6.25 inches since my pots are 6 inch diameter. This gave a tight fitting pocket and so far (as of this morning), not a single one had tipped over. Plus, I was able to re-organize the trees by height between the two tables. I also left a row toward the middle empty to provide more light and wind to penetrate into the interior rows of trees and build the trunk diameter.

wbpdeer;847829 said:
What you did looks good.
Metal conduit used in electrical situation is another quick divider. If you already have some - makes the cost situation a no-brainer.
I have no way of knowing what the cost is for what you used as opposed to electrical conduit.
It is an option - use conduit to put rootmaker 18s on top of in my grow boxes.
I do think you have solved the problem.
 
Sparkynutz;848456 said:
I have some bigger pots coming and found some pine bark nuggets to add to my soil but the nuggets are huge. Most are the size of my hand or just under I can break them by hand into 2 or 3 peices, but still seem pretty large. Any ideas on how to break them smaller?
Maybe a chipper...That is why I buy the Mini nuggets. They are large enough to add some bulk but not so large as to be impractical for the container size.
 
Sparkynutz;848588 said:
They did say mini lol. There's bad reviews on them for not being so mini. Chipper is a good idea and a guy I work with has one he's been trying to sell me. Might have to try and borrow it.
 
Jack you are undoubtedly the expert of root makers and chestnut trees grown in them. Nice addition to the forum as we have never really discussed the root maker and chestnuts here much.
 
Your trees look great yoder, I love chestnut trees.
 
Jack you are undoubtedly the expert of root makers and chestnut trees grown in them. Nice addition to the forum as we have never really discussed the root maker and chestnuts here much.

My big picture management plan is to head toward more long-term sustainable practices. Some of the large scale things include rotating timber harvesting and thinning along with controlled burns. We instituted a large food plot program when we first bought the place as an emergency room type operation. As we have gotten a handle on deer numbers now and I'd like to get a permaculture of mast trees in place that drop food over a long period of the year and cut back the food plot program. So, with that objective, high volume and low long-term maintenance are my primary drivers. Domestic apples are on the higher end of the long-term maintenance curve, so I've saved them until last. I am now sticking my toe in the water with crabapples and a few disease resistant domestic varieties. My biggest bang for the buck has been leveraging my native persimmons: http://www.habitat-talk.com/index.php?threads/sex-change-operation-transfered-from-qdma-forum.5547/ After that, blight resistant chestnuts are zero maintenance after they are established. I did some experimenting with Jujube as a low maintenance tree, but I still don't have fruit from these so the jury is still out. I'm adding DCOs, filberts, some pears and apples this year.

If my objective were simply attracting deer to a specific location, I'd have apples much higher on my list. One can maintain a few trees, but with volume the maintenance would be as much or more than the food plots.

Thanks,

jack
 
Here is the same tree on August 2nd:

dcf20a79-48c8-4c40-a981-fe9bfcd98019.jpg


Thanks,

Jack
 
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