Lime strategy

[Scott]

This year will be my third "serious" year food plotting. I'm looking for some advise around my lime applications based on strange results I got back on my soil tests this year.

My location in NE PA. Most of my plots are small plots 1/4 acre to an acre, either put in openings in the woods or quarry/gas line Right of Ways. The soil is thin with heavy shale under the thin layer of soil in the more elevated locations. The soil is better in the bottoms.

I created 3 new plots last year, 2 of which had a PH of 5.1 & 5.6. In May, I put down 2 tons of pelletized lime to the acre and applied liquid lime just to help with the soil for last year. In both plots, I planted similar mixes of rye, red clover, radish and turnips. Soil was only dragged at this time.

I was stunned this year when i took my soil tests to see that I had moved the 5.6 plot up to 6.5, but the 5.1 was still 5.1. More over, one of the food plots that we had been messing around with for over 5 years that was tested at 6.7 (2 separate tests) last year seemingly fell to 5.3 this year. I didn't apply any lime to this plot last year, but it had been limed haphazardly for 4 years before that.

While I am keeping open the idea that I could have had a strange sample error, I did take the time this year to ensure i had 2 or 3 locations from each plot. The common attribute both plots with low PH's this year have is that they are on ridges with very thin soil. I've attached pictures of the 5.1 PH plot from last fall. Is there any chance, something is running off?

I was wondering if anyone had any insight into what could be happening to me here and if there is a strategy to keeping the PH up in these conditions? (is this even possible or is it some sort of mistake) I frost seeded durana and chicory into the 5.1PH plot this year before I got my soil tests back hoping to keep as a stand of clover/chicory this year. Any chance that this will be able to turn into a good stand or should i be planning on killing in July and doing another run of last year's mix.

Thanks

 

[Woodstick]

Sounds like maybe your sampling depth has changed. Your lime probably moves down through the soil slowly. If you get a little more dirt below the zone where your lime is, the pH could read low. To be accurate you need to sample to the same depth every time. Another thing, make sure you're taking multiple samples from each spot and mix them well so you have a representative sample of the plot. Too few test holes will really tell on you if your lime spreading isn't perfect.

 

[Semisane]

On a quarter acre plot I take samples from at least eight locations around the plot and mix them in a clean bucket. I don't think 2 or 3 is giving you an accurate picture of the plot.

 

[MRBB]

I agree you might want to try getting a bigger mix of soil to have tested from each site

next IF you turned the spoil over AFTER the test, you could have turn up soil that was even lower than what your tests showed/

also keep in mind NOT all lime is of the same grade, from MY personal experience, if you need a TON of lime say per acre, and you use pelletized lime, you add an extra 20+% of pelletized lime, as it never seems as strong as plain AG lime, what ever they use to make it ball up, isn;'t all lime, so some of the weight sin't JUST lime, or this is MY OPINION on it


Lime takes a LONG time to work into things, and on poor soil's or thin, I gather it can pass right thru it and be settling in the rock under it!

I don't think I would scrap any plots you have, I would personally suggest doing better soil sample takes and have things re tested before you add anything else
then go from there
if you still need lime, I would just add lime again right on top of things and let what ever is growing grow and feed your critters
and if you get grass/weeds in , spray to control them and mow

and see what happens after this summer, or next spring to decide on if you want to kill and re do

you can also keep in mind, that IF by say NOV, soils PH is still LOW< winter is a great time to add lime too, it will leach in as freezing and thawing happens

NOT sure where your at in NE PA(I;m also from NE PA)
but I would be seriously looking at BULK lime and a drop lime spreader, the money it will save you over pelletized lime is HUGE

45 bucks a ton, spread IF truck can get there, or dumped and you can load your own drop spreader with it ??
WAY cheaper than peletized
I know I started off doing it that way, as all I could work with at the time

 

[Tree Spud]

On a quarter acre plot I take samples from at least eight locations around the plot and mix them in a clean bucket. I don't think 2 or 3 is giving you an accurate picture of the plot.

On a quarter acre plot ... throw 6 different seeds (clover, WR, oats, & brassica) out there and see what grows ... the next year only plant what grows ... I have seen WR grow in the back of my pick-up truck along with clover ...

.

 

[yoderjac]

It all boils down to soil types and I'm far from an expert in soil science. We had some good soils guys on the old QDM forum but I'm not sure what we have here. Folks like Dgallow and Banc know their stuff when it comes to soils.

Having said that, in general, lime moves through well drained soils like sandy much more quickly. I know folks who use multiple tons of lime and only surface apply it each time they plant in order to have a reasonable pH. Liquid lime is probably the most expensive way to apply lime and will not last long. Amendments take a long time to move through poorly drained soils like heavy clay so it can take quite a while for the pH to adjust. However, once adjusted, it stays amended for longer. My hands-on experience is with the clay end of the spectrum. Soils can vary between these extremes.

I would think that tillage is the worst thing you can do on very thin soils over top of shale. I would think a case like that would be a candidate for long term soil improvement using some of the methods Crimson N Clover demonstrates.

Best of luck,

Jack

 

[Scott]

I agree you might want to try getting a bigger mix of soil to have tested from each site

next IF you turned the spoil over AFTER the test, you could have turn up soil that was even lower than what your tests showed/

Lime takes a LONG time to work into things, and on poor soil's or thin, I gather it can pass right thru it and be settling in the rock under it!

I don't think I would scrap any plots you have, I would personally suggest doing better soil sample takes and have things re tested before you add anything else
then go from there
if you still need lime, I would just add lime again right on top of things and let what ever is growing grow and feed your critters
and if you get grass/weeds in , spray to control them and mow

NOT sure where your at in NE PA(I;m also from NE PA)
but I would be seriously looking at BULK lime and a drop lime spreader, the money it will save you over pelletized lime is HUGE

45 bucks a ton, spread IF truck can get there, or dumped and you can load your own drop spreader with it ??
WAY cheaper than peletized
I know I started off doing it that way, as all I could work with at the time

That's probably good advice. I've been hung up on trying to do everything right and this seemed like my first official fail food plotting. I guess if the clover just never develops, it's not the end of the world to let it be whatever it's going to be this year and then start again next year. I'm up near Wyalusing. As far as anyone getting into these with a truck, it's pretty close to impossible. I wish it were but everything i have is deep in the timber or land locked to other properties that I wouldn't feel right asking for permission to drive over.

 

[Scott]

It all boils down to soil types and I'm far from an expert in soil science. We had some good soils guys on the old QDM forum but I'm not sure what we have here. Folks like Dgallow and Banc know their stuff when it comes to soils.

Having said that, in general, lime moves through well drained soils like sandy much more quickly. I know folks who use multiple tons of lime and only surface apply it each time they plant in order to have a reasonable pH. Liquid lime is probably the most expensive way to apply lime and will not last long. Amendments take a long time to move through poorly drained soils like heavy clay so it can take quite a while for the pH to adjust. However, once adjusted, it stays amended for longer. My hands-on experience is with the clay end of the spectrum. Soils can vary between these extremes.

I would think that tillage is the worst thing you can do on very thin soils over top of shale. I would think a case like that would be a candidate for long term soil improvement using some of the methods Crimson N Clover demonstrates.

Best of luck,

Jack

Thanks. This was in my head if both of these plots do poorly this year. I figured I would commit to doing a number of years of WR and clover and replant directly over every year. On one of these plots, I attempted a buckwheat stand for soil building last year. The buckwheat planted in May came up great, but the deer had overgrazed to stems by the end of june. I have a full acre of clover right alongside of it now, so maybe if I did it again, the deer wouldn't pound it like they did last year.

 

[MRBB]

just so you know , again, you can get smaller drop spreaders and still you pulverized lime, and save a BUNCH of cash over the yrs, lime is a never ending story in NE PA I think LOL

as for food plots and deer overgrazing, honestly, it might be something your never going to get away from, pending what your deer numbers are, and HOW much plot you have,
the main farm I managed, I did 16 acres of food plots there, and still had issue's with over grazing, had 100-125+ deer hitting things every NIGHT, it was crazy, and that was also with a 60 acre crop field on the site
and NO matter HOW many deer/doe I killed there(legally too mind you)
it seemed we could never put a dent in things, some yrs with me bringing in guys, we could shoot 50+ deer off this 190 acres and it would seem like we didn;t kill a one!
was best food source for miles and miles and LAST farm before hitting large forested area, we pulled deer from FAR away,
I one winter I seen 3 acres of corn get sucked up in about 5 weeks, from full corn standing to GONE!!
it was a crazy place ,

but up at a hunting camp in Sullivan CO, we have like issue's, as we only have about 4 plots of about a 1/4-1/2 acre in size, and the rest of the area has POOR food else where, so, deer hammer the plots we have there due to its just the only real food for them,
then keep in mind its NOT the best soils, and lots of tree's all around the plots to keep yields down on them from some shading issue;s, and , them plots never do great, they start up great get going and then deer find and hammer them>>
I cannot even tell you the last time we needed to MOW any of then, they never get that tall??/ HAHA!
we have put a lot of thought into remove electric fencing to try and save some sections for hunting season there, just never got that far YET!!

but looking at your pic;s you I gather have shading issue's too, so keep that in mind, as spring time, NO leaves things grow FASTER , and then the shade comes and things slow down, weeds seem to always Grow faster than things you want in the shade and in the sun??
Spraying can help give your more desirable things a better chance too!

 

[FarmerDan]

I have always been quite critical of soil sampling technique, and the assumptions we make about what we think is a sufficient sample. In round, round number 6-inches of soil weighs in the neighborhood of a million pounds. How can a few samples be representative of the entire soil growing zone? Even a well sampled soil falls short of what would be considered a statistically sufficient sample size. An acre contain 43,560 square feet. Suppose that was the universe of sampling candidates (for example, one square foot). I'm going to play from memory and I could be memory deficient, but I think an adequate sample size is over 5,000. Ridiculous, I know. Keep that in mind though.

Why?

There's no field anywhere (I think) where the soil pH is the same across the length and width of the field.

Here's an illustration


It's real. The pH in this field varies from less than 4 to over 7. Pull too few samples from one area and you risk a bad answer. Even if you pull sufficient samples, all you get is an average and the treatment is average.

Starting with a pH of 5, applying 2 tons of lime guarantees your soil pH went up somewhere!! Soils in NE PA will hold a modified pH for a fairly long time.

 

[Bc4abc]

i have 5 different plots now ...and have had success in all but one of those plots...my soil is sandy in nature in all of the plots, but in the one plot it is extremely sandy, much more so than the rest.
i believe that my lime and fertilizer is running thru that particular plot like a sieve. i have given up on it, and started planting acid loving trees there. and focusing on the other plots where i can actually change the soil chemistry longer than a growing season.

one thought is you could still prob plant rye or something each year that will improve the soil makeup over time, and maybe give the clover another shot there in a few years.?