Jujube varieties for deer - Transfered from QDMA Forum

[yoderjac]

All my experiences with Jujube so far are documented in this thread: http://www.qrgc-forums.org/QRGC_Forums/yaf_postst163_Jujube-Fruit-Trees-for-Deer.aspx for background information.
Summary:
I started with the Meet the Jujube Article in QW issue 16-6 in Dec 2009. I decided to plant Tigertooth because they ripen during our archery and perhaps into gun season and because I found some grown on their own roots. Since Jujube propagate through root suckers, grafted trees would produce offspring with the characteristics of the rootstock.
I still don't have fruit, but I'm thinking I may need a second variety even though the nursery claimed this variety is self-fertile.
I was able to propagate these through root cuttings taken this March. I now have a few young Tigertooth jujube trees growing in rootmaker pots.
My plan is to graft these next year and plant them. I'm looking for additional varieties. I've developed a candidate list so far. I picked these because I believe they don't ripen before our seasons begin like many varieties, and because I know I can buy scions from England's Orchard.
R3T1
Redlands #4
Russian #5
Silverhill
Sweet Meaty
I'd love to hear any issues folks have with these or any other varieties they think I should consider and why.
Since I will be using Tigertooth as my rootstock, any natural propagation through the root system should produce Tigertooth trees.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack, from my conversations with Cliff England, I came to believe that humidity levels were also a factor in fruit production in addition to the traditional temp zones. In fact, I think he discouraged me from planting tigertooth as his had never fruited... But I may be wrong about the variety. I am in a very similar growing zone as England's so I tried to plant and graft varieties that he has had fruiting success with. Admittedly, I did try grafting a couple of varieties that he doesn't sell, though...so time will tell.

Thanks for the reply. I have not read about humidity being a factor. I had a long discussion with Dave Osborn who is in GA before selecting Tigertooth and I bought the trees from a nursery in FL. Both have had success but both have more humid environments than I do in central VA. Of course, I a lot more humid environment that your or Cliff does in NY. I'll have to see what I can find on the humidity thing. I may just be too impatient...

 

[yoderjac]

Jack
I am still waiting for my GA-866s (3rd year) and Li's (2nd year) to produce any fruit. Lots of flowers, lots of ants crawling around the flowers, but no fruit -??
-fsh

I believe Clifford told me he had a 7th leaf variety that hadn't fruited while others fruited first year...with humidity levels being the likely culprit rather than variety.

 

[yoderjac]

Background:
I bought a few Tigertooth Jujube several years ago grown on their own root stock as part of a wildlife project. My oldest trees are around 4 years and still have not produced fruit. I was concerned about pollination even though Tigertooth are supposed to be self-fruitful. After sending some pictures out to the experts, the consensus seem to be that the trees are not mature enough yet.
Last December I took some rootcuttings from the trees and started them in rootmaker cells. As they grew, I transplanted them into 1 gal rootbuilder II pots with FaFard 3B soilless mix.
Something Interesting:
I checked them today and low and behold, two of them have fruit!

Tree 1

Tree 1 Close-up

Tree 2

Tree 2 Close-up.
So, the parent tree is about 8’ tall and still no fruit yet the new trees are less than a year old and have fruit. By the way, the parent trees are planted in an open field with full sun. These young trees are on my back deck. It gets full morning sun but is partially shaded from about noon till 2:00 pm and then it is fully shaded by the house.
So, it is not a lack of sun, not a pollination issue, and not age. It must be something with soil or water. I amended the holes with compost, peat moss, along with native soil however our soils are fairly heavy clay. The established trees are all growing fine but no fruit yet.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack - maybe soil pH? can you soil-test the haves and have-nots?
-fsh

There is actually no soil with the haves. It is a mix of Fafard 3B and sand. The Fafard 3B soilless mix is pH adjusted to 7 but these are getting rain which is acidic so I'm sure the pH is between 6.5 and 7.
The have-nots are growing in much more acidic native soils. I did backfill the holes with with a peat/compost/native soil mix but made no attempt to adjust pH. Our local soils are around 5.5 without amendments.
However, Jujube are supposed to flourish across a very wide range of pH well below my 5.5.
I sent the above post out to several Jujube experts as well as posting it here. I've received one reply back. His thought is that the early fruiting in the containerized plants is caused by root constriction. He suggests that root constriction as would occur in the rootbuilder II containers can cause woody plants to move from vegetative production to fruit production.
I've asked him if the early fruit production will continue if I plant these in the field or if it will revert to vegetative production. I have not heard back yet.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Jack - that makes sense. I will be patient and let nature take its course...
-fsh

That is my plan. I just heard back from the expert. He seems to think that these trees will stop producing fruit for a year or two after I plant them in the field.
I'm now trying to decide if I should keep these in the RM pots and try to bench graft them next year or if I should just plant them as-is this dormant season and field graft some of my established trees instead.
I ended up with about 4 out of a dozen root cutting attempts survive or 33% success. However, I learned some lessons this year and will try a different approach next time. I'm hoping to get that percentage up significantly.

 

[yoderjac]

How did they turn out? Taste pretty good?
Anyway - I would expect the trees to require a certain root mass before they will produce fruit.... Probably the ones that fruited will go vegetative till they "Mature" in the ground... kinda like a peach or apple tree flowering/fruiting in the nursery... and it takes 3 more years in the ground before you see anything...
I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that jujubes are eaten by deer... I had just not heard about it.. Seems like it would be a pretty good candidate assuming they drop at the right time of year....
I could imagine wildlife eating jujubes and making a huge thicket....
Thanks

They are not ripe yet, but I plan to taste them when they do. I'm interested in seeing when the drop so I won't pick them. These are tigertooth which is one of the latest dropping varieties. As I start to add new varieties one of my requirements is that they drop during our hunting season.

 

[yoderjac]

So.. I am sure this is another dumb question and all....
But.. I know they generally lump jujubes into categories for use......
Fresh eating - usually taste pretty good off the tree (like a sweet apple), but don't preserve well.. Sometimes too wet and they don't dry right...
Drying/preserving - usually taste woody and bland fresh, but are pretty tasty when dried - kinda like dates....
I don't know which one Tigertooth fits into....
Any idea from your reading which general category is preferred for Wildlife?
Thanks

John,
I started the Jujube project based on a QW article "Meet the Jujube" after having a dialog with one of the authors, David Osborn. Here is the link: http://www.wildlifegrowers.com/QDMA_Jujube_article.pdf
For wildlife, I completely ignore the commercial characteristics and instead look more at wildlife characteristics. I needed a variety that drop their fruit. Some trees require shaking for the fruit to fall. I needed a variety that would drop the fruit during our hunting season. Most varieties I've found drop their fruit too early for a hunting attraction.
Beyond that, I found another issue based on that article. Most are grafted on a wild rootstock. If you don't keep the area around the trees (for quite some distance) bushhogged, the tree will propagate through the root system. The resulting trees will be wild producing little fruit of poor quality. I did not want to commit to years of maintenance like that since I was specifically looking for low long-term maintenance. The tigertooth was the only variety that I found that met the characteristics I was looking for and that I could find grown on it's own roots. If these trees propagate from the root system, the new trees should have the same characteristics as the parent tree.
So, my plan is to plant and propagate tigertooth only as my rootstock. I will then select other varieties that have the characteristics I want and graft scions from those varieties on to my tigertooth.
I'm still trying to figure out what varieties to use. The one I hope to use next is Silverhill. There was some confusion as to whether this was a distinct variety from tigertooth, but the experts tell me it is. I'm using it next because it has a similar bloom time to tigertooth and should improve productivity through cross-pollination.
Two more varieties I'm considering for this year are Redlands #4 and Globe. Others under consideration for the future include R3T1 and Sweet and Meaty.
---
By the way, one of the fruits just dropped from the young plant this week. It is not ripe. My guess is that there simply was not time for these to mature normally in the young containerized plant.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Several of the fruit partially ripened and dropped of the tree. This picture was taken on Nov 10th:

I tasted the most ripe of these and it was not bad. It sort of tasted like a date but sweeter.
I'm not sure if this is a reasonable proxy for when mature trees will drop fruit, but if it is, it looks like this could be a November food source.

 

[yoderjac]

Well, I started it once again. This morning I took some roots from my tigertooth Jujube trees (grown on their own roots). I brought them home and made cuttings tonight. Like last time, I cut them into about 3 inch sections but I did do a few things differently. Last year, I dipped them in a powder type rooting hormone. This year, I used dip-n-grow liquid. I gave each one about a 5 second dunk. Last year, I started them in rootmaker cells with Farfard 3B. This year I used one of the flats I made out of a laundry basket and shelf liner to start persimmons this summer. I put some Farfard 3B/Sand mix at the bottom and then filled the rest with sand. After watering the flat, I placed each dipped root cutting in the flat. Next, I covered them lightly with sand and watered them again. I wont' worry about lights until they sprout.

 

[yoderjac]

Interesting thread. Never heard of Jujubes before but they sound like they have potential to draw deer. Being in the deep south, if I were to purchase trees for strictly deer attraction, I would need a variety with low chill hours and late drop time. Sounds like the only one that meets that criteria is Tigertooth? Doesn't sound like you have had much luck fruiting with this variety. Maybe the Silverhill variety will perform better for you and give us some hope

Most Jujube have low chill hours. They are grown in Zone 10b in Ca. I doubt that will be a problem. Some folks think Silverhill and Tigertooth are the same variety, but I've been assured that they are distinct varieties.
I now believe the issue with fruiting has simply been maturity. We don't have the best soil for Jujube. I had a university professor that deals with Jujube take a look at pictures of mine. He suggests that they are growing slower in our soils and need a year or two more before they fruit. Tigertooth are supposed to be pretty prolific.
I think he is right about that. Since the containerized tree was only a foot or so and produced 4 or 5 fruits when it was less than 6 months old, I no longer think pollination is a factor. I'm expecting good things in a year or two but time will tell.
Most Jujube drop too early for hunting season however there are a few varieties that drop later. You can see on another thread my first attempt to graft jujube. I ordered a couple Redlands #4 scions because they are supposed to be a late dropping tree. I grafted one to my tigertooth rootstock.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks for the info. I think I am gonna order a couple of those tigertooth jujube's just for fun. Never grafted before but it may be something I wanna try once these get established. I think there was one variety in Washington DC that seemed to be a late dropper. (Admiral Wilkes I believe). The tigertooth sprouts carry the same characteristics as the parent right? Sweet fruit and late drop times?

Yes, Admiral Wilkes is another late dropper on my list. It will likely be the next one I order scions from if I can get some more trees started from root or stem cuttings. The only reason I chose Redlands #4 over it first is that since I already have tigertooth (and I got some Silverhill scions) which are Late to very late like Admiral Wilkes, I want to get some more coverage and Redlands #4 is mid to very late.
The reason I started with Tigertooth is because it is a good deer choice and the only variety I could find grown on its own roots. You are correct that trees propagated from the root system will have the characteristics of the root system. So, if you have tigertooth roots, and new trees grown from them will be tigertooth. Every other variety I could find was grafted on wild or Indian rootstock. While wild jujube rootstock is very hardy and aggressive making for faster growth of the tree, any trees propagated from the root system would have the characteristics of the wild jujube with poor fruit and a tendency to thicket.
So, if you order tigertooth, make sure it was grown on its own roots, not a grafted tree (if you want to do what I'm doing). If you keep root suckers bushhoged a wild rootstock shouldn't be a problem, but when planting for wildlife, I want low maintenance and who knows what might happen 10+ years down the road I bought mine from Just Fruits and Exotics in Florida. The first year, I placed my order late and got very small trees compared to the second year when I ordered early. I think I got was left over the first year. The trees I got the second year are much larger now than the trees I got the first year. I'm not sure if that is still a problem or not.
Good Luck and post some pics as you go,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

It has been quite a while since I updated this thread. I'm learning as I go with Jujube and thought it was time for an update.
Last year, I cut down two of my Tigertooth in the field and tried grafting other varieties with good success. I bark grafted a Redlands #4 to one tree and a Silverhill to another. Both took. By the way there is some question as to whether Silverhill and Tigertooth are just different names for the same variety. I have had different experts tell me jus the opposite of each other.
I also started some new tigertooth from root cuttings. Success here was moderate but it gave me more rootstock to work with. So, this winter I ordered some more jujube scion varieties from Roger Meyer. While I would not plant native jujube rootstock in the field, I did order some sprouts for experimenting in containers.
I grafted scions to both my Tigertooth that I had started from root cuttings and to some of the sprouts I got from roger. Two of the grafts to my tigertooth rootstock took, one Admiral Wilkes and one Redlands #4. None of the grafts on the wild jujube rootstock took. A few of them put up new shoots from the roots or branches from below the graft. I kept them to try again next year.
It is fall tree planting time now. My trees are not dormant but that doesn't matter for rootmaker trees. We are past the dry season in my area and since I don't provide supplemental water, that is the only important factor in timing for me. I've been sleeping in until about 0830 and then planting trees until about 1400 and then eating lunch, showering up and archery hunting in the evenings. With this schedule I get about 4 trees planted per day.
My planting technique with my heavy clay has been this: I've been using an auger to dig deep holes almost exactly the diameter of the RB2 3 gal containers the trees are in. I then back fill the hole amending it. I'm using quarry stone mixed with native clay to improve drainage directly below the plant. I'm fertilizing heavily but well below the plant. With my clay, nutrients move slowly. I don't want the fertilizer to be used now, but later when the roots grow into it. The concept is that lateral growth of the roots will get them into the native clay soil quickly that holds water well but that the amended soil will keep the rootball from drowning when we get heavy rain as water should infiltrate the professional mix much faster than the clay but hopefully collect well below the roots in the amended soil. I use a shovel handle to remove any voids from the amended soil below the tree and I fill it enough so the rootball sticks up an inch or so when the tree is planted. I then use the clay left around the hole by the auger to build a small hump to the top of the root ball. This should keep ground water from running into the hole and allow for any settling. Next I add a 4' square section of air and water permeable landscape cloth around the tree. This year I've started using the same quarry stone as mulch. It had enough weight to hold down the landscape cloth without staples, it discourages rodents, and it should be much more permanent than organic mulch. It should allow water in while helping the landscape material retain moisture below. Next, I add protection depending on the tree. For the American Persimmons I add no protection as my deer don't seem to bother them. I wasn't sure how they would react to the hybrid (Nikita's Gift) so I tubed some and left some exposed. For my crabapples I used 18" tubes to protect from rodents and added remesh cages to protect from deer. While I don't think the deer will bother Jujube, I did tube the Admiral Wilkes and Redlands #4 on tigertooth that I planted. I wanted to see how it would affect growth.
Since I didn't know anything about how deer would relate to Jujube or much about my soils and tree planting when I planted the original Jujube trees, I dug large holes and amended the soil and caged them and mulched them with peat moss and bark mulch. The original trees are over 12' tall and s couple inches in caliper so I removed the cages. When I did, one of the trees blew over the following night. I took a close look. It appears several things happened.
First, much of the root system stayed in the large amended soil which was very light and offered little anchoring. Second, the organic much seemed to attract some kind of moles or something. I noticed some holes so something may have been eating roots. I may have cut roots when I removed the T-posts that were supporting the cage.
So, I stood the tree upright and covered the amended hole with a mound of native clay and packed it. I then placed landscape cloth over the clay and added the quarry stone as much. I did this for all of the original Jujube trees. For the one that blew over, I also used T-posts and loose straps to limit movement but allow it to flex.
As I was working with these trees, I noticed a lot more root sprouts than I had seen before. I dug them up and took them home and planted them in 1 gal RB2 containers. This may be a higher success rate way of starting new trees than root cuttings. I ended up with close to a dozen sprouts but I'm not sure how many will take.
I think the take-away from this is that as trees get older, tigertooth may tend to form root sprouts just as much as wild jujube rootstock. However the difference is that any trees that it produces will be Tigertooth with its fruiting qualities, not wild jujube.
I'll continue to report back as things progress. I heard Roger Meyer is sick and my not be selling scions this year. So, my variety choices may be limited to what I can get from friends.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Thanks for the update. I've ordered Jujube this yr for a try. I also have heavy clay soils but don't amend or dig deap/big holes. I've always tried to keep from having any barriers between the roots and native soils. If they don't grow well with the soil I have then I don't spend much time trying to help them and move on to something else.
I'm very interested in your grafting and propagating. My plan is to get a couple of trees started and to propagate them if they do well. Hope it keeps going well for you!

Did you order Tigertooth on its own roots or some grafted variety?
Your approach for planting in heavy clay works well for bare root trees. The method I described above is for planting rootmaker trees. By definition, a rootmaker tree has amended soil in the root ball. I had issues planting that in clay because it functions as a pond because of the differences in infiltration rates between the mix and the native clay. I could remove all the mix from the rootmaker tree and plant it like a bare root tree, but then the tree would have the same transplant shock recovery as a bare root tree.
I wish I had been smarter about my soils when I planted the original trees.
In general, I've been disappointed in how long it is taking to get the trees in the field to fruit. At one point someone speculated that the humidity was an issue and they needed less humidity to fruit. However, I now know that is not the issue at least with Tigertooth. I've had them fruit in 1 year in rootmakers. The Admiral Wilkes I grafted to tigertooth and just planted in the field had fruit on it. It will be interesting to see if it returns to a vegetative state next year since it is out of the Rootmaker.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I ordered "Lang" and I think it is grafted but I'm not sure. I figured if it suckers I'll start grafting from the parent tree to the new sprouts. Lang is advertised as having a later drop date than most others.

Cat,
Here is the problem. Unless you've found an unusual source that is selling it on its own roots, most jujube (all lang I've ever seen advertised) is grafted on to native jujube rootstock. Here is the problem with that.
Native jujube rootstock will sucker quite badly. Since the new trees are coming from the roots, they will be native jujube, not lang. Native jujube produces low quality fruit if it produces at all. This is not a problem for an orchard or backyard, because mowing will keep the suckering roots from causing a problem. However, in a wildlife application, if you don't maintain the tree with regular mowing, you will end up with a thicket of highly vegetative native trees with little if any fruit. Here is the article on Jujube that got me started: http://www.wildlifegrowers.com/QDMA_Jujube_article.pdf It is worth the read.
This also means that you can't clone the tree from the roots. Instead of getting clones of Lang, you will get clones of native jujube rootstock. This is sometimes called wild or sour jujube.
So, if you plant this lang in the field, I'd recommend planting it in a clover plot. The root sprouts can easily emerge up to 40 feet away. They need full sun and the middle of a clover field should provide that. Also, the regular mowing of the field should keep root sprouts in check. At least as long as you maintain the field.
The reason I started with tigertooth was that it was recommended to me by David Osborn (one of the authors of that article referenced) and because it was on its own rootstock. This way, any root sprouts that occur will be tigertooth and have the same fruiting characteristics as the original tree. This also lets me propagate it from root cuttings. Other clonal methods of propagation have not worked well with Jujube. I'm then using these propagated trees as rootstock for other varieties. So, any root sprouts from them will be Tigertooth. I may still have a thicketing issue, but at least any trees will produce quality fruit.
Even so, I planted all my Tigertooth in a clover field. As long as I maintain them everything will be fine, but I may not always be able to maintain the field, so someday I'll be glad I used tigertooth as rootstock.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Here are the varieties they have; "Li", "Lang", "Sherwood". I could probably change my order if one of them is a better alternative. I had planed on planting them in the open, but a 40ft root sprout is pretty dang long! Not sure I want to fight that.
Any suggestions? They didn't have Tigertooth that I saw advertised. They would probably let me change to another tree altogether if I asked but I'm not sure as this is the first time I've ordered from this nursery.
Any chance that you would part with some root cuttings?

The only place I was able to find trees grown on their own roots was Tigertooth from Just Fruits and Exotics in Florida. Everything else I've seen is grafted on to sour jujube. Li, Lang, and Sherwood some of the older most established varieties. The article I linked shows some characteristics of many of the varieties. I'd suggest reading that for a start.
It may be years before you have issues. My tigertooth are now just starting to produce root sprouts. So far they are mostly within 6' of the tree but these trees are less than 5 years old (as I recall).
You have to make the call for yourself. I'm just letting you know what to watch out for. I'm certainly no Jujube expert.

Jack--I don't know how you find enough time in a day to keep up with all your trees but I do admire your passion and appreciate all your knowledge that you share.
You are the reason I started all my persimmon grafts which lead me into apple and pear grafted also.
todd

Thanks for the kind words. I'm not quite sure how I keep up either. I doubt if I can sustain this rate for long. I'm looking for another big tree year in 2016. I'll reevaluate after that and see where things stand.

 

[yoderjac]

Here is the relevant quote from the Quality Whitetail article:
"Richard Ashton, a Chinese jujube grower in west centralTexas and author of Jujube: the Chinese Date, reports seeing large multi-stemmed thickets of jujubes. However, each of these thickets has been associated with a planted jujube tree, not natural spread. These thickets, much like wild plum or American persimmon thickets, formed when root suckers from the original tree emerged from the ground up to 40 feet away. Because almost all improved varieties are grafted onto wild-type jujube rootstock, the resulting root sprouts are like the undesirable wild-type tree, not the improved variety. By undesirable, we mean very thorny and with small, low-quality fruits. Unless their roots are damaged by plowing or other soil disturbance, mature jujube trees (older than 15 years) produce few such root sprouts. Until a tree is mature, it is important to mow its root sprouts down one to two times each year to prevent the rootsprouts from competing with the primary tree, and to prevent thicket establishment."
So, if you plant those Li, Lang, and Sherwood in a wildlife environment you'll want to keep mowing sprouts for 15 years.
As for me, I hope to keep the root sprouts controlled until the trees mature, but who knows what will happen years down the road. So, I'm being cautious. By using Tigertooth as rootstock, I'm hoping to avoid this issue. For the next few years, I'll dig up root sprouts and use them for propagation if it works better than root cuttings. After I have enough trees, I'll just keep mowing the field as long as I am able.
I'm hoping to increase my varieties over time through grafting. It is going to be tougher to get a broad variety of scions if Roger doesn't recover and start selling them again.
Thanks,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

I actually read the article last night and then printed it for my files. Very interesting read! It gave a slightly different view of the Jujube than I had before, but in a good way. It did say that they will rootsprout for up to 15 yrs but it also said that they have been in the country for 172yrs and has shown no invasive tendencies.
So I've got a couple of questions;
Will rootsprouts that are not controlled send out their own rootsprouts? Say a rootsprout pops up 40ft from the original tree and is left to grow, will a rootsprout possibly pop up another 40ft from that new tree?
Can rootsprouts be controlled with herbiside, or will spraying a sprout kill the parent tree?
Can the grafted parent wood not be grafted to rootsprouts to create numerous "good" trees in a thicket?
I really am learning some stuff here! Just so you know this tree isn't going out in the middle of a pasture, it's going to be on the edge of my yard where care and maintenance won't be a problem.
Thanks for your time with this.

1) If you don't control a root sprout and let it grow into a tree, it too will produce root sprouts.
2) I'd be concerned about using herbicide since it will go into the root system of the main tree.
3) Well sort of. You can graft to wild root sprouts, but if you don't move them you will get a thicket. That generally means that the trees don't do real well because they are all sharing the same resources being that close. That 40 foot number is up to 40 feet. Most root sprouts will be much closer to the tree.
4) If it is going to be in a suburban environment where regular mowing will occur, I don't see any problem with jujubes and thicketing. My concern is when I plant them in the field where they may not be maintained in the future.
I also got your PM and responded.
Good Luck,
Jack

 

[yoderjac]

Well, maybe this will be the year when my jujubes in the field finally start producing. The picture is fuzzy but I think these are immature fruit:

Right in the middle of the pic, I see one or two what look like fruit starting. One of the trees did this last year but it must have aborted the fruit or birds ate them before they were mature because I didn't get any fruit.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[yoderjac]

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