Grafting question

[Powder]

I'm hoping to buy root stock next spring to plant a bunch of apple trees. I live in northern MN so I need a hardy tree but I'm less concerned about the quality of the apple. As long as it produces something the deer will eat I'd be happy with it. My goal is to graft different onto the rootstock but to start with lots of cheap trees. When is the proper time to do the grafting? Should it be done before the trees are planted or after? I've never grafted before so it's all new to me.

Edit: I'm thinking of getting Antonovka rootstock.

 

[Troubles Trees]

Others on here have more experience than I do with the particulars but I have always grafted before they come out of dormancy in the spring. I would assume your rootstock comes to your door dormant but I have never ordered rootstock before. I just use 2-3' tall native apple trees for my rootstock so I am probably not the person to answer.
If you are totally new to grafting you might want to take scions from a native apple and graft right back onto the same tree and mark them with ribbon to make sure you know if they took or there was a problem for practice before trying with anything you pay for.

 

[Charles Clear]

If I were to buy rootstock I’d buy dolgo seedlings from Ryan at blue hill wildlife nursery. Others more knowledgeable will chime in, but I here great things about dolgo rootstock.

 

[sandbur]

I favor dolgo rootstock and mostly crabs as we move north in Minnesota.

My suggestions would be Norland, dolgo, chestnut, and maybe haralson/ Haralred depending on how far north. Wolf river also does well, but I don’t have personal experience with it.

Check your messages in a bit.


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[Telemark]

I think A2 rootstock is much better than Antonovka.

 

[chickenlittle]

You can approach grafting in several ways depending on your preference. You can bench graft or plant the rootstocks and graft next year. You can raise in a nursery bed for 1-2 years and transplant or plant where you want the trees. Any approach can work. Some might be easier or more successful for you.

 

[sandbur]

I think A2 rootstock is much better than Antonovka.

I have never heard of A2, but a quick check said trees grow to about 6 feet.

Most deer managers want taller trees to get above browsing pressure.

Just a quick check and I could be wrong.


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[DrDirtNap]

I have never heard of A2, but a quick check said trees grow to about 6 feet.

Most deer managers want taller trees to get above browsing pressure.

Just a quick check and I could be wrong.


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I’ve never heard of A2 either?


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[Powder]

I'm not picky on the type of apple. I mainly want something productive and as disease free as possible. My plan was to buy a bunch of cheap rootstock, plant them and then graft onto them. I just wasn't sure of the timing of when I should graft. I'd like the rootstock to be somewhat productive on it's own in the off chance that I never graft anything onto it.

 

[Powder]

One other question. If I were to plant dolgo rootstock would I even need to graft onto them? Do they need a pollinator?

 

[sandbur]

One other question. If I were to plant dolgo rootstock would I even need to graft onto them? Do they need a pollinator?

You won’t need a pollinator. Dolgo rootstock usually has variability from flowering crab sized fruit up to some very nice apple crabs.


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[yoderjac]

You can approach grafting in several ways depending on your preference. You can bench graft or plant the rootstocks and graft next year. You can raise in a nursery bed for 1-2 years and transplant or plant where you want the trees. Any approach can work. Some might be easier or more successful for you.

I have sort of done a combination. I've bench grafted and put the trees in RB2 containers for one growing season. My experience, for what it is worth, is that reestablishing a root system and pushing a graft is a lot of clonal rootstock. If everything goes right, I get a jumpstart and good trees, but it only takes one little thing to go wrong for the grafts to fail. This spring was a great example with a very late cold snap in our area after the grafts leafed out. They all died, except...

Except for the ones that failed last season. I kept the rootstock alive in the container, overwintered then, and regrafted them this spring. I guess because the root system was established, they were able to handle the cold snap. It was the only real difference. All new grafts failed this spring and all re-grafts succeeded.

I think the moral of the story is this. Whether you plant them in the field, or in a raised bed, or a root pruning container, If a graft fails, try to keep that roostock alive. If I'm getting nervous about a graft and think it should have leafed out by now, or did but isn't growing well, I will let one of the buds on the rootstock grow. Only when I'm convinced the graft is solid will I prune it. If the graft does fail, I'll grow out the rootstock and I have a much better chance of success the next spring.

Thanks,

Jack

 

[BuckSnort]

If you are looking for “cheap” rootstock you will be better off buying a larger quantity. Even If you can buy 100 you can get them for less than $2 a piece. Better yet, find someone to order with. Last year I ordered 200 rootstock from Willamette that we split between 5 different guys but it helped everyone reduce the cost, especially the shipping. Whip & tongue is great for bench grafting after rootstock arrives in the spring. They time shipping so the trees will just be waking up. If you plant them first and then try to graft, I would suggest a cleft graft, I had 100% take with my failures doing it that way. I am planting where I can’t baby trees so I leave them in the garden a couple years to make sure they are well established. I have a combination of B118 & Antonovka, my soil is very sandy so my research showed they would do best. There wasn’t much info out there on Dolgo when I started.
One final tip that many can confirm, protecting your trees will quickly become more expensive than grafting them. Since I am growing trees for wildlife and not orchard picking, I am now pruning my trees up so the first branches are close to 5’ high. This will allow me to get by with a smaller diameter fence to protect them from the deer.

 

[sandbur]

Have you contacted a nursery in I Falls to see what rootstock they prefer? Bemidji might also give you an idea.



Most Minnesota nurseries purchase from Bailey’s in central and north central Minnesota. They use a lot of dolgo, but may have changed as rumors are that their business model has changed.


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[Apple Junkie]

My thoughts on your questions…
1.) I think I’d select Dolgo rootstock for the reasons folks above pointed out – it’s a good rootstock, and if you do nothing, it’s a good tree on its own too.
2.) You usually graft in early spring before the leaves bud out.

In my mind, the challenge will be protecting your rootstock trees. Without some sort of protection, your trees could get browsed pretty quickly, especially if you plant them out in the open. You might consider sprinkling them all over, then cage any that get beyond 3’ or so. I like your plan in theory, but you’ve got to expect a high rate of mortality if you direct plant to soil. If you plant to pots for a couple years, then put them out, you may improve your odds, but unprotected, be prepared for losses.

Plan B is to purchase a few good size trees from a reputable nursery, then protect them and see which technique works best for you. I like your thinking though, I might just sprinkle a few around my place just to see what happens (I’ve been wrong before). Love new ideas… thanks for chiming in.

 

[Powder]

Do grafted trees fruit sooner than non-grafted trees?

 

[sandbur]

Do grafted trees fruit sooner than non-grafted trees?

There are too many variables to answer that. Many different varieties of apples and of rootstocks, almost unlimited combinations.

Plus some trees/ rootstocks perform best on certain soils.


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[chickenlittle]

In general, grafted trees fruit sooner than seedling apples.

A seedling apple tree needs to mature enough and go through some hormonal changes before it can start fruiting. A grafted variety is already mature and ready to fruit. For the grafted tree, it is a matter of the variety and the rootstock as to how long it will take to start producing fruit. With a seedling, what the fruit will be like and how long until you get it is an unknown.

Some grafted varieties are known to take a long time to start fruiting. Northern Spy is one that can take a long time.

 

[Telemark]

I have never heard of A2, but a quick check said trees grow to about 6 feet.

Most deer managers want taller trees to get above browsing pressure.

Just a quick check and I could be wrong.


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A2 is Alnarp 2, which I believe is from Sweden. It is a vigorous tree producing trees 85-90% of standard but much more precocious.

 

[cavey]

Never Heard of A2 either - will check it out.

One thing to remember about being in a hurry to get apples from a young tree is that, rootstocks that control the growth of the tree - predominantly those that dwarf and produce early tend to be smaller profile/stature trees... and will be more susceptible to browsing from deer. The most expensive part of rearing apple trees is the caging ... aluminum window screen the base of the tree, paint the south side of the trunk white, kill all the vegetation around the base of the tree and fence them in (the bigger the cage the better - (biggest line item is the fence posts and fence material)).

I go with standard or near standard cold hardy root stock for my trees - especially wildlife trees because of the browse issues in the wild. And go with the largest dia cages I can afford.

Read up on pruning and plan to do it... dont be afraid to be aggressive with pruning especially when young.... When in doubt cut - train good branch angles.

Order your root stock soon, cut scion in the spring Feb/March ish or buy it. Store in a zip lock bag, pencil sized cuts waxed at both ends, damp paper towel in bag and put in the crisper of your fridge till April - check for mold, dont keep apples in your fridge - can damage the stored scion. Make good metal tags to label your trees. Invest in a good but cheap "grafting knife" (just do it). A nice hand pruner too if you want.

Graft about the same time you would start to plant bare root trees outdoors (have your root stock shipped to you just before that time) have a cooler big enough to cool/cold store your root stock bedded in damp wood shavings/saw dust... I usually get my root stock and am in no hurry to graft... they come from cold storage and doing that method often sweats them out a bit. I toss some block ice in the bottom under the sawdust to keep it cool. You want your root stock coming out of dormancy and your scion still dormant at the time of grafting. I then use the same cooler to re-bed and cool store my freshly grafted trees for a week or so to get some healing of the graft joint.

Go the nursery route if you can - grow your tree in a controlled babied environment - I now prefer to pot out my newly grafted trees and heel them in for winter to be later dug out in a year or two for field planting. Nothing wrong with direct planting grafted trees or planting root stock and next year grafting on them. Its just easier to do more via bench grafting and using a nursery and seeing how they do.

Expect some grafting failures - your root stock will often survive to give you a second or third chance later. Bonus with something like an Antonovka standard root stock is that it alone makes an ok wildlife apple just like dolgo root stock.

If your only going to do a half dozen or so trees - just buy them - you will be way ahead with 3/4" to 1" trees especially potted ones . You will get a 3-5 year jump on growing them over starting with new grafted trees.



did I mention window screen and big cages..... ya and one more thing.... cages and window screen and.... tree labels, ya tree labels, before its too late and you forget what you planted.