What's new

Fire lapping

b116757

5 year old buck +
My boys 243 Ruger M77 Mark 2 has always copper fouled pretty badly and accuracy was never that great 2-2.25” five shoot groups. I picked up a package of the David Tubb fire lapping bullets the other day and we shot them. We shot a five shot group before we started with factory ammo and another when we finished. I didn’t have any extra ammo so no fouling shots where taken post fire lapping and cleaning the barrel. Overall post fire lapping group was bigger but three of the five where within .75” so l’m still holding out hope that perhaps the larger group has to do with no fouling shoots taken post cleaning. I have to pick up some 6mm bullets and start working up a load for it maybe the fire lapping helped. It does clean easier without nearly the amount of copper fouling that was typical for this barrel pre-fire lapping.
 

Attachments

  • EFBD25FE-EA49-40BF-B8AF-B3142E1641E6.jpeg
    EFBD25FE-EA49-40BF-B8AF-B3142E1641E6.jpeg
    285.6 KB · Views: 20
  • 5E76A8EA-7A98-4A97-BB89-56F0E31E1041.jpeg
    5E76A8EA-7A98-4A97-BB89-56F0E31E1041.jpeg
    244.7 KB · Views: 20
  • 1E7A343F-9C9B-4A79-942E-B4A7CA9F5E11.jpeg
    1E7A343F-9C9B-4A79-942E-B4A7CA9F5E11.jpeg
    240.6 KB · Views: 20
Last edited:

Teeder

5 year old buck +
Did you clean the barrel, including removing all copper, prior to starting the fire lapping process?
 

b116757

5 year old buck +
Did you clean the barrel, including removing all copper, prior to starting the fire lapping process?
Yes and every 10 rounds during the process
 

b116757

5 year old buck +
I like KG 12 copper solvent
 

MRBB

5 year old buck +
well, I will add my 2 cents here, after decades of having a gun shop and sighting in hundreds if not thousands of rifles, and as well as decades of long range shooting (started 1,000 yard match shooting in late 80's0
I was a accuracy nut for a while too

what I can tell l you is, almost every rifle will like ONE Load, and shoot smaller groups with it
and anything else it maybe won't do so well
so finding what it likes IMO is as much a game as doing things like lapping a barrel, or truing up a bolt face or other accuracy improvements many do
the game if MAKING a rifle shoot small groups is doing a lot of reloading or buying factory ammo, as well as fine tuning things on the gun, like lapping a barrel, re crowning a barrel, ,
MOST good gun smiths offer accuracy tune up in which they do the basic things, but , SOME Guns will never be super accurate rifles
playing with over all length of loads, different powders and bullets, IMO< has been able to make most rifles shoot decent groups at a 100 yards
but there have been some that were NOT worth the time to do all that load work,as in the ends , some times trading it in on something else would have been a better way to spend the $$$


IF anyone care, Ill add this, s and I am NOT brand bashing, just giving my experiences, from bench shooting and sighting in so many different rifles over the yrs

Rem and savage have been the most accurate out of the box on average

win, browning, ,Mossberg,sSko and Rugers , Weatherby have fallen into a more HIT or miss game, again NO bash, just being honest from MY experiences!
some shoot very small groups, some, DON"T
and some of them that don;'t shoot shoot very very bad groups
for them brands in MY EXPERIENCE, (your may be different I am sure) you either got a GOOD one, or you didn;t from these makers!


the rem (700;'s 7) and savage's were the most consistent of being accurate small group guns with factory ammo!
food for thought maybe?
 

b116757

5 year old buck +
well, I will add my 2 cents here, after decades of having a gun shop and sighting in hundreds if not thousands of rifles, and as well as decades of long range shooting (started 1,000 yard match shooting in late 80's0
I was a accuracy nut for a while too

what I can tell l you is, almost every rifle will like ONE Load, and shoot smaller groups with it
and anything else it maybe won't do so well
so finding what it likes IMO is as much a game as doing things like lapping a barrel, or truing up a bolt face or other accuracy improvements many do
the game if MAKING a rifle shoot small groups is doing a lot of reloading or buying factory ammo, as well as fine tuning things on the gun, like lapping a barrel, re crowning a barrel, ,
MOST good gun smiths offer accuracy tune up in which they do the basic things, but , SOME Guns will never be super accurate rifles
playing with over all length of loads, different powders and bullets, IMO< has been able to make most rifles shoot decent groups at a 100 yards
but there have been some that were NOT worth the time to do all that load work,as in the ends , some times trading it in on something else would have been a better way to spend the $$$


IF anyone care, Ill add this, s and I am NOT brand bashing, just giving my experiences, from bench shooting and sighting in so many different rifles over the yrs

Rem and savage have been the most accurate out of the box on average

win, browning, ,Mossberg,sSko and Rugers , Weatherby have fallen into a more HIT or miss game, again NO bash, just being honest from MY experiences!
some shoot very small groups, some, DON"T
and some of them that don;'t shoot shoot very very bad groups
for them brands in MY EXPERIENCE, (your may be different I am sure) you either got a GOOD one, or you didn;t from these makers!


the rem (700;'s 7) and savage's were the most consistent of being accurate small group guns with factory ammo!
food for thought maybe?
I agree good info for sure in your post. The old Ruger M77 Mark 2’s where very hit and miss on accuracy. I have many of them triggers where lawyer proof. I’ve run the Tubbs Fire-lapping bullets in one other of these guns in 30-06 it consistently shot 2MOA beforehand and now shoots 1.25 MOA not great but adequate for a short range deer rifle. I figure $50 in fire-lapping before a custom barrel is put on isn’t going to hurt me and if it shoots anywhere close to MOA it will save me that expense. This little endeavor really had more to do with spending time with boy tinkering around on firearms something we both enjoy. If I want accuracy I’ll pull out my Savage Ashberry chassis rifle or my Bergara HMR Pro and shoot on my private 1000yd range.
 
Last edited:

b116757

5 year old buck +
97AE4E2F-9D63-4D1B-B362-05D2896156CA.jpeg
My poured concrete shooting benches and pad. I need to throw up a roof over the benches to keep the sun off of us when we are shooting. Just another thing to add to my todo list.
 

Wind Gypsy

5 year old buck +
Holy cats, that's a hell of a setup to have at your place!
 

b116757

5 year old buck +
Holy cats, that's a hell of a setup to have at your place!
AR500 targets at 500yds, 585yds, 625yds, 725yds, 1000yds and sometimes I’ll put one at around 1200yds but can’t leave it permanently do to bailing hay. This range is at the farm. I have another range at the house but is a short only out to 385yds but very handy for load development. I can load up five test rounds step out the door shoot a group over the chronograph document my results and step back into the reloading room. Makes for an enjoyable afternoon.
 

Teeder

5 year old buck +
AR500 targets at 500yds, 585yds, 625yds, 725yds, 1000yds and sometimes I’ll put one at around 1200yds but can’t leave it permanently do to bailing hay. This range is at the farm. I have another range at the house but is a short only out to 385yds but very handy for load development. I can load up five test rounds step out the door shoot a group over the chronograph document my results and step back into the reloading room. Makes for an enjoyable afternoon.
Jealous, here!
 

Foggy47

Yearling... With promise
I've chased accurate guns since the 80's. Pretty much in tune with what MRBB says above. In my quest for an accurate Prairie Dog gun....I read EVERYTHING I could from the days of Warren Page, Jim Carmichale, and more........and then set to develop some accuracy tools for the average guy. Over time, I developed and manufactured a bullet seating depth tool, bullet comparators, cartridge headspace gauges and several more products for the accomplished reloader. Still available today....those products are now made by my friends at Hornady and they call em part of their "lock and load". brands.

Seems to many the accuracy game is 1/3 gun / 1/3 ammo / 1/3 shooter ability. Agreed. Lots of quick cures have been trieed with fire lapping and moly coated bullets being popular at times. I have found that polishing a bore with JB compound and a tight fitting patch may do more to resolve accuracy than some of the other techniques....but your results may vary.

One thing you can count on if / when you find an accurate gun.....is that finding / or making ammo that closely FITS the chamber with minimal tolerances (including the bullet seating depth - or the lands to rifling dimensions) will provide a better shooting combination. Anther thing that will provide better groups is to get ammo (and bullets) that are concentric with the rifles chamber.

Using random components with random dimensions is going to make for lots of frustration if accuracy is your quest. Learn how to measure to .0002" or so of an inch.....and make one change at a time as you pursue the accurate rifle..... and .you will know a thing or three about making guns shoot better. Barrel harmonics is another issue. Barrels and bullets and minimized dimensional chamber / cartridge variations make for better accuracy.....and a good trigger won't hurt. Grin.
 

JonJ

5 year old buck +
Agree with MRBB and Foggy. If the gun and ammo don't get along, you're not going to gimmick a tight group.

Didn't read bullet weight, or optics on the Ruger. I've got Rem 700 in 243, and it prefers 100-105 grain bullets. I tend to get flyers with lighter varmint loads. Bought a box of Rem "Premier" Scirocco (Swift) 80g and couldn't get a group close enough to call it zeroed. Anyway, groundhogs get 100 grains of overkill with that gun.

The gun chooses the load, if you force your choice on it, you loose accuracy.

Have to throw in optics and mounts. I like DNZ one piece mounts. Just so happens factory is 45 miles away. I've got a box with cheaper scopes collecting dust. Lock the rifle down in a shooting rest, look through scope, move eye away, go back, if you get crosshairs moving on target, consider different scope.
Good luck, Jon
 

Foggy47

Yearling... With promise
When you change bullet weighs.... more than likely....you also will change the "clearance" between the bullet's "ogive" and the origins of the rifling (alternately called throat or leade). This clearance is sometimes referred to as "bullet jump", "free-bore", "free-travel", and other terms. Making small changes in this clearance can and does make guns shoot quite different in terms of accurate groups. Most often, minimizeing the clearance will result in better accuracy.....sometimes cutting group sizes in 1/2....even more.

I spent a good part of my life making this known to the reloading world.....grin. It's still as viable today as it was 50 years ago. Keeping this bullet jump to a relatively small dimension will result in improved accuracy.....in most cases. Not enough clearance can result in getting a bullet stuck in the barrel.....so it's important to do this correctly if you are a reloader.

A big part of the issue is....that gun makers need a generous "freebore" as folks want to shoot such a wide variety of bullet weights in any given caliber. As an example....shooters want bullets weighing from 100 grains to 220 grains in a 30-06. This gun cannot possibly be made to be accurate with all those bullet weights.....as some will need to jump 1/4" inch or more, to engage the rifling. Large bullet jumps generally destroy accuracy.

A few calibers out there have not succombed to this perceived "need" to shoot so many bullet weights. To me, a prime example is the 280 Remington. (often overlooked by many - and I love this chambering for big game). The SAMMI specs have not allowed for such a wide variety of bullet weights in this cartridge / chamber specs. Instead it shoots 140 to 160 grain bullets quite well (if my memory serves). Then too....there is no SAMMI specs on overall cartridge lengths. Each gun manufacturer is up to his own specs in this area.....and they vary widely. It's just that most have not messed with the 280 Rem.

The majority of the shooting public want one gun to do so many things (shoot so many bullet weights).....and that can destroy accuracy....IMO. The customers are always right (?). Few custom guns (with knowledgeable buyers or gunsmiths) would have a chamber leade cut to allow so many bullet weights.. It's all at the expense of the best combinations that the cartridge was designed for.

One reason muzzle loaders are quite accurate (though using "primitive" components).....is that the bullet need not jump from a brass cartridge to the rifling.....which can destroy accuracy. Instead....when the bullet is inserted....and the ram rod used.....it's pushed against the charge and it's already in the rifling. No jump....no fuss. (< this should be the goal of a good hand-loader).

If gun makers would state "chambered for 130 gn to 150 gn projectiles" (or some such reasonable thing).....we would enjoy better accuracy. Instead they try to make a chamber suitable for varmint hunting and big bears. Duh?

My 2 cents. OK....I rest my case. It's all good....and I realize it's not for everyone. Smile.
 
Last edited:

b116757

5 year old buck +
I grabbed a couple boxes of bullets at Scheels to play with and scored an 8lb jug of Superformance while I was there. This is no precision rifle guys just a 100yd deer hunter at best. If I can throw together a hunting load that’s around MOA its good enough. I’m not wasting tons of components trying to make a lemon into lemonade. Lots of good reloading advice but probably wasted on this little project. Maybe we need to start a precision rifle/reloading thread. Maybe an “MOA all day challenge” to weed out chaff
 
Top