Coronavirus

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I disagree strongly with your point of view. Society is generally acknowledged to be able to instruct individual action "for the greater good" - and the best available evidence is used to guide these decisions (I say this tongue in cheek, because I know very well that this is not always true - but I really want to have faith in people). Nevertheless, it is dissenting opinions like yours (and many others) that keep these powers in check. So while I disagree with your point of view and will argue against it, I also strongly feel that you are entitled to your opinion - so long as you follow the law of the land. Either that, or accept the consequences of civil disobedience, which is both a right and privilege.

But all of that is about personal freedoms and philosophy of living - you don't have to justify either faith or belief. It just is, and not much is going to change the underlying nature of a person.

Finally, putting nasty words (dirty? inbred? what are you talking about, some strain of laboratory mice?) in someone's mouth isn't conducive to a civilized argument. But you know that, I suspect. That's simply inflammatory rhetoric designed to solicit a response. A way of distinguishing "you" from "them". Further division when that's the last thing we need.
So you believe for instance that if you are against alcohol that you should have the right to tell me I can not have it? Its ths same thing. Some are affraid of the cold and expect everyone else to give up their rights to protect them from getting it. That seems reasonable to you? At the end of the day thats what it comes to, whos rights matter? I believe everyones do, you believe only some peoples do.
The nasty words, as you put it were cherry picked from your posts. Things you said about us. I added the dirty part. Seemed like something you would put in there.....
 
It's hard to argue with a "Is too, nah, nah, nah , nah, nah" response that "everybody knows". LOL. But thanks for your participation.
Typical. Nothing constructive so go to personal.
 
If the numbers were right, and the vid really did take 500+ thousand lives, dont you think the total deaths should be much higher? Are the numbers a strong indication of exactly what we are saying? Or am i thinking of that incorrectly. Serious question, no ribbing.
 
Okay, I hear you. And I acknowledge your argument. You feel, like Bill, that folks who died, died with COVID rather than from COVID. Here are my fact based arguments as to why that is extremely unlikely, looking beyond what the pundits or websites say (and yes, I read the directive issued by CDC on March 24th, 2020 - and it was transparent, and it was prospective - going forward - which means that it wasn't "falsifying" anything, since you can't falsify what hasn't happened yet lol).

First off, the CDC doesn't determine how deaths are classified across the globe, or anywhere but the US. The pandemic outbreak initiated prior to March 24th, and was much worse in other countries before it got bad here. Hence, the CDC's directive had nothing to do with mortality elsewhere, and the effects of COVID were felt across the globe (except perhaps Australia, which has done a remarkable job following some draconian restrictions).

Second, if CDC guidance applied throughout the United States, then why was mortality restricted to areas that were experiencing outbreaks, and why has that mortality rate gone down as doctors have learned to manage the virus more effectively (ie -ventilators. Bad idea. Last resort.). Again, this does not mesh with the CDC's guidance being the cause of COVID mortality.

Third, how do you explain excess mortality when considering deaths by all causes, coincident with the periods of COVID outbreak? I've added a graph below to illustrate this point, taken from a screenshot. If the CDC were simply labeling deaths COVID when they were in fact from some other cause, then 2020 would look like 2017, 2018, and 2019 (and most other years prior). A bad flu season will show up, as you can clearly see for 2018 - which was the worst since the 2009 Swine Flu. If these numbers are incorrect, then there's more wrong than simply the CDC. You've got to believe something, or you may as well disbelieve everything.

Simply put, there are multiple independent, parallel arguments that support increased mortality during the pandemic that has nothing to do with CDC's issuance last March. No BS, no obscurification, and I have no reason to mislead anyone. If you were to tell me that these excess deaths were premature harvesting of future deaths from susceptible individuals who would have died soon anyway, well - I guess we will have to see whether the future mortality from all causes drops off soon. But the data from the last year doesn't point in that direction. Still, it is formally a possibility. And I'm willing to listen to any other reasonable, fact-based arguments that might support a different position.

But it seems fairly cut and dried to me, based on logic and data, not opinions.
Ah, but it is anything but cut and dried. This is good.

First, you're assuming the entire world is more honest than the good folks at the CDC and the NIH. That's a stretch after all that's gone on at the WHO, in China, the EU, and the unfair treatment of the AZ vaccine. We can't base that on anything other than what we see. You're asking a question, I'll ask one back. Is our CDC more corruptible than the rest of the industrialized world? Is that one you're asking us to believe? You're ignoring the moral hazard of paying hospitals for covid deaths and covid positives, with no framework consistency for cycle threshholds in the dysfunctional PCR tests. And you can absolutely falsify what hasn't happened by pre-ordaining the outcomes that will follow.

B, I cannot explain why mortality was higher in outbreak regions. Perhaps we should correlate the deaths to the severity of lockdowns by region, and not the manufactured PCR clusters. We do know that for every inflated covid death that's been counted, there are as many as four lockdown related deaths, those deaths of despair, murder, suicide, overdose, nocebo, diminished diet, lack of exercise, and missed preventative care exams.

Four, maybe it's because it's been exactly 75 years since the baby boom began, and the boom is running head first into the life expectancy wall. Mix in a little terror, some fast food, despair, and isolation, and you'll have a positive outcome on an already old and extremely sick and medicated population.

I believe lots and lots of extra people died. They did and it wasn't from the 'vid. I know a bunch of them. Let me ask you this. What was the point of violating data collection practices and changing the way deaths were counted? What purpose did that serve? Have we been in a non-stop pandemic since the flu was discovered, and not know it? What if we went back and recalculated all the past cold/flu seasons using the new framework of suspected with vs from? If we counted that way all the way back to the beginning, we'll have lost the entire population twice already.
 
If the numbers were right, and the vid really did take 500+ thousand lives, dont you think the total deaths should be much higher? Are the numbers a strong indication of exactly what we are saying? Or am i thinking of that incorrectly. Serious question, no ribbing.
First off, I want to express my condolences to Tamarack. That's a raw deal, losing both parents in a short span of time, regardless of cause.

Second, serious question, serious answer. If you integrate the area under the curve using excess deaths as a metric, then it's close, but probably not half-a-million. I can't tell exactly from the graph, but eyeballing it puts the average between five and ten thousand a week. An average of five thousand a week for 40 weeks is 200,000. Double that and you have 400,000. So the numbers are there; but is the "official" tally inflated? I can't say. I do know that when the death certificate says "COVID", perhaps it was a premature death, and who can say how premature? Weeks? Months? Years? Unless you are a fortune teller, then my guess would be nobody knows. But excess mortality is independent of cause of death, so those numbers I believe.

SD - the numbers that I've seen tallying deaths during the COVID lockdowns from other causes are far less than the excess mortality. Missed exams resulting in preventable cancers is in the range of 10-12,000 total, and that's not deaths. Murders and suicides are up, but not even close to what we are talking about. I'm not sure where you are seeing those numbers, but I'd be interested to know. There's been a cost, for sure, nobody denies that. However, the cost is not what's been mistaken for COVID mortality. And why would excess mortality follow the infectivity curve if deaths were from other causes? It simply does not compute. The correlation between positive test results (not lockdowns) and death is too great to deny.

Money provides incentive to lie - but I have access to the financials for our institution, and we didn't benefit from COVID deaths. Quite the contrary. The losses due to halting elective surgeries were staggering. Luckily there was some stimulus to cover losses, but that came about after the fact, with no guarantee in advance as to how much we'd recoup. Many hospitals are non-profits, and to most I know in the business, the idea of lying for profit is repugnant. But I'm sure there are some...there always are. I hope it's a vast minority.

Finally, since I have no idea what anyone on this board's role in life is other than their call name, I would never disparage them by making assumptions about their social, economic, or educational status. Any insults, perceived or intended, are in direct response to something they've posted. In fact, I have SD's Russian quote hanging above my computer at work. That was about as clever a comeback as I've ever seen. Respect.
 
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Sorry if this has already been posted. A medical doctor sharing some thoughts. I'm only partway through but it's worth sharing. He says no such thing as a cold and flu season, just a Vitamin D deficiency season.

 
Sorry if this has already been posted. A medical doctor sharing some thoughts. I'm only partway through but it's worth sharing. He says no such thing as a cold and flu season, just a Vitamin D deficiency season.

And he is a scientist!!!
 
A global pandemic so deadly the worlds population increased during "this difficult time" ? Ok ..........
 
A global pandemic so deadly the worlds population increased during "this difficult time" ? Ok ..........
You think a pandemic would slow the breeding in shot hole countries? Not a chance. Heck, Alec Baldwin had 4 kids during it. Not to mention all the conception during the lock downs.
 
First off, I want to express my condolences to Tamarack. That's a raw deal, losing both parents in a short span of time, regardless of cause.

Second, serious question, serious answer. If you integrate the area under the curve using excess deaths as a metric, then it's close, but probably not half-a-million. I can't tell exactly from the graph, but eyeballing it puts the average between five and ten thousand a week. An average of five thousand a week for 40 weeks is 200,000. Double that and you have 400,000. So the numbers are there; but is the "official" tally inflated? I can't say. I do know that when the death certificate says "COVID", perhaps it was a premature death, and who can say how premature? Weeks? Months? Years? Unless you are a fortune teller, then my guess would be nobody knows. But excess mortality is independent of cause of death, so those numbers I believe.

SD - the numbers that I've seen tallying deaths during the COVID lockdowns from other causes are far less than the excess mortality. Missed exams resulting in preventable cancers is in the range of 10-12,000 total, and that's not deaths. Murders and suicides are up, but not even close to what we are talking about. I'm not sure where you are seeing those numbers, but I'd be interested to know. There's been a cost, for sure, nobody denies that. However, the cost is not what's been mistaken for COVID mortality. And why would excess mortality follow the infectivity curve if deaths were from other causes? It simply does not compute. The correlation between positive test results (not lockdowns) and death is too great to deny.

Money provides incentive to lie - but I have access to the financials for our institution, and we didn't benefit from COVID deaths. Quite the contrary. The losses due to halting elective surgeries were staggering. Luckily there was some stimulus to cover losses, but that came about after the fact, with no guarantee in advance as to how much we'd recoup. Many hospitals are non-profits, and to most I know in the business, the idea of lying for profit is repugnant. But I'm sure there are some...there always are. I hope it's a vast minority.

Finally, since I have no idea what anyone on this board's role in life is other than their call name, I would never disparage them by making assumptions about their social, economic, or educational status. Any insults, perceived or intended, are in direct response to something they've posted. In fact, I have SD's Russian quote hanging above my computer at work. That was about as clever a comeback as I've ever seen. Respect.
Well , i have been told by many who work in hospitals that patients that should have been discharged were not, simply because the hospital got paid extra while they were in there. I also suspect that testing facilities were being paid for positive results, not told straight out but hinted around it.
The death numbers dont add up. And i certainly would not believe or take anything of value away from a cdc based graph ,or anything they might want to put out at this point. With all the lies and misconceptions they have thrown out there how could anyone. They are nothing but a shill for the democratic party.
IF ther numbers are correct, we should be seeing the normal amount of deaths from everyother cause, plus the percentage due to population growth,.plus the 500,000 + they are callimg covid deaths. Even using the cdc generated propaganda graph its not there.
And dont think you can side talk your way out of the name calling !lol
 
The majority of academia act as deep state operatives and are anything but objective as demonstrated by the diminuitive twit who champions the vaccine(s)

bill
 
Well , i have been told by many who work in hospitals that patients that should have been discharged were not, simply because the hospital got paid extra while they were in there. I also suspect that testing facilities were being paid for positive results, not told straight out but hinted around it.
The death numbers dont add up. And i certainly would not believe or take anything of value away from a cdc based graph ,or anything they might want to put out at this point. With all the lies and misconceptions they have thrown out there how could anyone. They are nothing but a shill for the democratic party.
IF ther numbers are correct, we should be seeing the normal amount of deaths from everyother cause, plus the percentage due to population growth,.plus the 500,000 + they are callimg covid deaths. Even using the cdc generated propaganda graph its not there.
And dont think you can side talk your way out of the name calling !lol

Side talk my way out of name calling? I'd rather eat a sh$t twizzler, lol. If I call somebody a name, I'll stick by it. But there's no cause for name calling in an honest debate between gentlemen. Disagreeing with someone's stated opinion isn't name calling though, right?

I'm glad you mentioned "the normal amount of deaths", because that brings up yet another piece of evidence supporting the reported mortality rate for COVID. Cancer deaths last year were nearly the same as for 2019. So were deaths by cardiac events. These are the top two killers in our nation. COVID was third last year. If COVID killed half-a-million people, but you claim that this was because of premature death and that they in fact would have died from other causes, which causes exactly would this be? Because I'm seeing reported numbers of deaths by other causes that are on par with previous years. If COVID is stealing deaths, from where? Again, serious question.

IMHO, multiple parallel lines of evidence support the reported COVID mortality.

Of course, I cannot argue if folks want to believe that all of the data sources are lying - even though these are independent worldwide entities - because I have no evidence to support their telling the truth. Except that everyone would have to be lying. All together. And if you believe that, then there is absolutely no point in trying to convince you otherwise. No argument will suffice.
 
The majority of academia act as deep state operatives and are anything but objective as demonstrated by the diminuitive twit who champions the vaccine(s)

bill

C'mon, Bill. You know better than that. I sure hope that you're being tongue-in-cheek there. I suspect given the breadth of higher education in this country that everybody's family has one dark horse academic in the closet lol.
 
Side talk my way out of name calling? I'd rather eat a sh$t twizzler, lol. If I call somebody a name, I'll stick by it. But there's no cause for name calling in an honest debate between gentlemen. Disagreeing with someone's stated opinion isn't name calling though, right?

I'm glad you mentioned "the normal amount of deaths", because that brings up yet another piece of evidence supporting the reported mortality rate for COVID. Cancer deaths last year were nearly the same as for 2019. So were deaths by cardiac events. These are the top two killers in our nation. COVID was third last year. If COVID killed half-a-million people, but you claim that this was because of premature death and that they in fact would have died from other causes, which causes exactly would this be? Because I'm seeing reported numbers of deaths by other causes that are on par with previous years. If COVID is stealing deaths, from where? Again, serious question.

IMHO, multiple parallel lines of evidence support the reported COVID mortality.

Of course, I cannot argue if folks want to believe that all of the data sources are lying - even though these are independent worldwide entities - because I have no evidence to support their telling the truth. Except that everyone would have to be lying. All together. And if you believe that, then there is absolutely no point in trying to convince you otherwise. No argument will suffice.
Cancer deaths may have been on par last year but you can expect a big jump for the next 5. Too bad cancer deaths don’t effect elections.
 
Side talk my way out of name calling? I'd rather eat a sh$t twizzler, lol. If I call somebody a name, I'll stick by it. But there's no cause for name calling in an honest debate between gentlemen. Disagreeing with someone's stated opinion isn't name calling though, right?
Dude, like I said, those were words YOU used to describe me and others on thos thread. You dont get to play high and mighty now that i threw your words back at you.
 
Side talk my way out of name calling? I'd rather eat a sh$t twizzler, lol. If I call somebody a name, I'll stick by it. But there's no cause for name calling in an honest debate between gentlemen. Disagreeing with someone's stated opinion isn't name calling though, right?

I'm glad you mentioned "the normal amount of deaths", because that brings up yet another piece of evidence supporting the reported mortality rate for COVID. Cancer deaths last year were nearly the same as for 2019. So were deaths by cardiac events. These are the top two killers in our nation. COVID was third last year. If COVID killed half-a-million people, but you claim that this was because of premature death and that they in fact would have died from other causes, which causes exactly would this be? Because I'm seeing reported numbers of deaths by other causes that are on par with previous years. If COVID is stealing deaths, from where? Again, serious question.

IMHO, multiple parallel lines of evidence support the reported COVID mortality.

Of course, I cannot argue if folks want to believe that all of the data sources are lying - even though these are independent worldwide entities - because I have no evidence to support their telling the truth. Except that everyone would have to be lying. All together. And if you believe that, then there is absolutely no point in trying to convince you otherwise. No argument will suffice.
You aren't getting the point.

At this point you'd have to be a little slow to believe anything the cdc says. With all the outright lies they have spewed out to help.the dems?
 
C'mon, Bill. You know better than that. I sure hope that you're being tongue-in-cheek there. I suspect given the breadth of higher education in this country that everybody's family has one dark horse academic in the closet lol.
You cmon. Its not a secret that all these so called experts are democrat left wing nut jobs.
 
C'mon, Bill. You know better than that. I sure hope that you're being tongue-in-cheek there. I suspect given the breadth of higher education in this country that everybody's family has one dark horse academic in the closet lol.

you're right

What do I know?

i'm an old white man who believes in American exceptionalism , the preservation of individual rights , free markets, and free people

I apologize for thinking and questioning the rationale and blather from the smart guys about COVID

Clearly ,I am a deplorable in need of reprogramming.....

bill
 
Okay, I guess if you are serious, then I will point out that it's about as unhelpful as anything to accuse an entire group of people of being "deep state operatives" because you hear some of them expressing opinions that you disagree with - do you in fact interact with any academics or do you base your opinion solely on what you're fed through the media outlets?

Honestly, calling yourself a deplorable in need of reprogramming puts a lid on the conversation. Where did I say anything like that? I make a sincere effort to be as respectful as possible on a public forum. After all, you never know who you're talking to. I'm calling you out on a statement that you made, a statement that is frankly indefensible. How does that make you a deplorable? It means that I disagree with your opinion.

I feel like it is impossible to have a conversation anymore if you're not entirely on the same page as someone else. I am also an old white man (if 53 is old), who believes in American exceptionalism , the preservation of individual rights , free markets, and free people.

And I think that labeling academics as deep state operatives is just silly. But what do I know? I guess I'm part of that deep state.

Why is it that if you don't agree with someone entirely, then you get labeled an enemy? This is how potential allies are alienated.

Also, it's funny how I'm supposed to shrug off direct insults, while at the same time I have words put in my mouth that are supposed to have been insulting. Good thing I really don't take offense - so long as you don't label me a tube-user.

Anyway, just thought I'd shake things up on this thread so it doesn't get too inbred (no - I'm not calling anyone inbred - it's a reference to the same few folks posting constantly). I'm going to exit stage left and try not to take a left hand turn at Albuquerque. Please don't get deafened by the internet reverb.
 
Nobody called you the enemy

Its just that you come across as an academic hubristically confident of your own urbanity and training and arrogant in your knowledge of medicine

you are right about one thing...... You dont know who you are talking to

There are those of us here who have as much( and probably more) training in medicine than you do


I spent 12 years in an academic medical setting that has a far greater reputation than yours and was also a member of the faculty

You arent the smartest person in the world nor are you the smartest person on this "inbred forum"

"Lighten up,Francis!!!!!"

bill
 
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