Buying Land and looking at soils

BenAllgood

5 year old buck +
I'm new to this forum, but was on one several years back for habitat related stuff. So, I'm not completely new to this.

I'm planning to purchase property in Kentucky (live in Louisiana), and will probably retire there when I reach that point.

I've always used the Web Soil Survey site to look at soils, but wanted to do this ahead of time before purchasing property. I usually pick the area of interest, then look at the soybean numbers for production and the pH to get an idea of the fertility of soils. Are there any other things to look for you've found helpful when trying to find out the fertility of the soils on that site?

Thanks in advance!
 
I think its great that your really interested in those factors. I would take it beyond fertility (and maybe it's all the same). Me, I'd be looking at productivity, erodibility, permability, slope facing direction, water holding capacity, CEC. I don't know which three or four might be the most important. Here's a punch list to consider...
soil factors.JPG
 
Why are you buying land?

Why do soils matter to you?

Are you a farmer, are you looking for pure recreational, are you a hunter?
 
Why are you buying land?

Why do soils matter to you?

Are you a farmer, are you looking for pure recreational, are you a hunter?
I'm buying land because I don't want to keep leasing and I'd like to retire on the property I hunt on. Plus, I just like to work on the land.

Soils matter to me because a lot of the battle of supplying nutrients to the deer will be easier if I have the right soils to begin with.

I'm not a farmer. I'm a hunter, and I want to have property that I can make whatever changes, improvements, or mistakes on my own.
 
Would be VERY interested to know if you find any correlation between soil fertility and the numbers of record book deer registered for that county. Some of the greats harp on age and genetics above all else, but with all else being equal, the amount of nutrients the deer take in would have to have some sort of impact, or at least you woukd think.
 
First thing I'd look at is how heavy the ground is, and can you logistically apply enough lime to make it workable. You don't want to get stuck with some heavy stuff in the 4's that's gonna require 10+ tons of lime per acre, that you can't source and would have to do by hand if you could find it.
 
Would be VERY interested to know if you find any correlation between soil fertility and the numbers of record book deer registered for that county. Some of the greats harp on age and genetics above all else, but with all else being equal, the amount of nutrients the deer take in would have to have some sort of impact, or at least you woukd think.

There is a huge correlation. Take a map that shows agricultural production (beans and corn) and overlay the B&C or P&Y records. It is a very close fit. There are a few exceptions to nutrition driving things but not many. There is nothing we can do about genetics in a free ranging deer herd. There have been a lot of modeling and studies done in this area. Selective harvest won't impact underlying genetics based on how deer breed and our ability to correlate physical features with underlying genetics. That leaves age. Age is generally a function of hunting pressure on young bucks. One good example of an exception to the nutrition driving is Virginia. Our highest county for P&Y bucks is Fairfax. It has no agriculture and is all suburbs. Nutrition is not particularly bad compared to the rest of the state because of back yard fertilization and plenty of edges, but the underlying soil doesn't compare favorably with the our better agricultural areas. So why record bucks there? Age. Firearm hunting was almost non-existent for many years. Over population and deer/vehicle collisions finally got the park system to allow a few controlled firearm hunts, but most of the hunting in these suburbs is done with a bow. It is much harder to harvest deer with a bow than a firearm and because of the population density and litigious fears of many homeowners, hunting overall is limited. As a result, many young bucks walk with immunity. They have plenty of time to age and occasionally someone gets lucky during the rut with a bow.

Now Virginia is not high on the B&C or P&Y list by any calculation, but it shows one rare example of where soil is not king.

If my primary purpose was to harvest record bucks on my land, I would first look at soil. I would look for non-farmable ground (swamp, grade, etc.) that is proximate to good farming and on fertile soil. My focus would be on building a sanctuary of cover letting nature and the farms provide the quality food. I would look to buy a large quantity of less commercially valuable land so that I could limit access and harvest of young bucks. I'd completely ignore genetics.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Would you rather have great soil and poor deer genetics or poor soil and great deer genetics? I was in the same boat you're in last year. I was looking for property and in hindsight probably spent a little too much time looking at the soil and specifically the web soil survey. I was mainly concerned with future potential for timber harvest but definitely understood great soil would be really nice for wildlife management in general. At the end of the day, some of the brushier poorer sites can be excellent deer habitat.

I ended up purchasing property in the Appalachian mountains where everybody has poor soil but that's really the place we wanted to be. I did learn a lot with the web soil survey tools, that is a fascinating resource no doubt. At the end of the day it just didn't have an effect on our property purchase. Location, price, and available acreage with parcel size that fit our needs was more important.
 
Genetics is much more complex. There is a base genetic pool that covers many more genes than are expressed. There is an entire field called epigenetics that comes into play. Most folks only think they have poor genetics. Epigenetics is the study of gene expression verses which genes are carried. One recent study captured and transported deer from two areas of a particular state, one with good soils and larger deer (call it area A) and one with poor soils and smaller deer (call it area B). Hunters in the area of the state with poor soils knew they didn't have great soil but they also believed they had poor underlying genetics.

These deer were fed the same high quality diet and it made only a small difference in the deer (body weight and antler size) in the deer from area B. They were still way behind the deer from area A. It took two generations of feeding and both groups A and B were about the same in both body weight and antler size. The high quality diet provided to parents affected the genes for size that were expressed in the offspring. The high quality diet fed to the second generation affected the genes expressed by their offspring as well.

So in the end, neither area of the state had "better genetics". It was simply a matter of how the quality of the soils (thus the food) had interplay with the epigenetics.

For choosing a general area, soils are the key. Because the food we plant is only a small percentage of the diet of a free ranging deer, we can't really effect the epigenetics either of free ranging deer without a huge budget. The soils are the limiting factor. What we can do to marginally improve nutrition and get the biggest healthiest deer our soils can support is to even out the boom and bust cycles of nature by selecting crops that provide a high quality food source during times when nature provides little.

From my perspective this can be done regardless of soil quality but it does require enough scale so that a deer's home range is enveloped by land under your control because age comes into play and the harvest of young bucks by neighbors can mute the effort. However, you are still limited by the underlying soils.

One more thing to keep in mind is that harvesting record book bucks is not everyone's goal, and certainly not mine. I'd love an opportunity at a wall-hanger, but that is not foremost for me. We are managing for a balance between timber value, wildlife value, introducing new hunters to the sport, and recreational opportunity. We have lost many bucks with great potential by using a policy that lets new hunters shoot any deer including young bucks. I'd rather know I introduced a kid into the sport that may become a long time hunter than harvest wall hangers. In order to shot a wall-hanger, you need to pass on does as well. That doesn't fit into our management plan for keeping the herd size in balance with the habitat. In the big scheme of things when I look are our goals, soil fertility is not as important since many of our other goals are more limiting factors.

Thanks,

Jack
 
Thanks guys. Some great input. I just wanted to try and get ahead of the game if I could before buying something.

One thing that jumped out at me on the WSS was the cation-exchange capacity. It says, "Soils having a low cation-exchange capacity hold fewer cations and may require more frequent applications of fertilizer than soils having a high cation-exchange capacity."

I don't think what I plant is going to makeup the majority of the deer diet, so I want to look at the soils without amendments to get a good idea of the nutritional plane for the available browse in the area.

@Ed Brodt , I am looking to buy in the Ohio/Butler county areas. I'm actually going to look at one piece this weekend.

@yoderjac , I've seen that MSU study before. I'm glad they did that study so people can realize that with proper nutrition and age, we don't need to be concerned about the genetics.
 
My concerns when I bough my property 27 years ago were price and location. I wanted the land to be no more than a 2 hour one way drive from where I live so that I could get there often and back home on a day trip. It is a 1 1/2 hour one way drive which is great. Over the years I have limed the soil, spread fertilizer and had septic pump out and paper mill sludge dumped on the large fields. I discontinued the septic pump out as there was just too many foreign objects showing up in my fields. It is simply amazing to see what people put down their septics. The septic fellow also has porta potties. I told him after one dump out to never to bring a load of that crap back to my land. It was more than disgusting to pick up the objects in my field that were deposited in the porta potties. People used them like garbage cans. I wore leather gloves and used a claw grabber to get that stuff out of my fields.
 
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