Brand new plot

[Wny Hunter]

ok, here is the back story. I recently had my land logged (2020) . I had the loggers clear cut a 3 acre parcel . They took what was of value to them and left the rest. I’ve hired a couple local guys to come in with an excavator and dozer to clear the land. I’ve instructed them to pop all the stumps and stack everything along the sides . This should be completed by June 1st. I had a soil test done and as expected , the results aren’t good ( I am in zone 5). My long term plan is a no till plot. My questions are more about where to start. I have already purchased 2 tons of Pel lime that I will spread as soon as the clearing work is done ( I cannot get Ag lime delivered). I’ve read buck wheat is a good soil builder. Will I be able to plant that, once the land is cleared, with the PH being so low? If the answer is yes, will I be able to plant the LC mix late summer early fall? Or should I hold off on that till next year , and just continue to build up the soil? I understand this is going to be a long term project , I just want to start off on the right foot.

 

[yoderjac]

I would suggest doing another soil test when the clearing is done. A good operator will leave all your top soil, but many folks with a dozer will end up piling up your good topsoil to level the plot. Your OM looks good, but depending on how it is cleared, that may change. Looks like you will need close to 4 tons of lime. Making 2 applications is not a bad idea. Buckwheat does well on infertile soils and should grow fine after your first 2 ton application. Your soil type will be a factor in how fast the lime works and how much and frequently maintenance lime is needed.

You should be able to plant buckwheat fine in June as long as you get rain when needed in your area. I would not till. I'd just surface broadcast the lime. There is no need to rush. This fall, I'd give it another shot of lime, 1.75 ton. Rather than the full LC mix, I would just plant Winter Rye in the fall. It too will perform in poor pH and low fertility soil. This will give your amendments time to work. Both will be fine deer crops. They are very good crops to start with because not only will they grow in poor conditions, they handle deer browse pressure well. This will give you a chance to assess how much browse pressure your plots will get for future crop selection.

I would plant a mix of sunn hemp and buckwheat again next spring (you could add sunn him to the plant in June). Sunn hemp is a legume that will help fix N into your soil. By time to plant for next fall, your soil will likely be in shape to add brassica to the mix so the LC mix should be fine.

Best of luck,

Jack

 

[BobinCt]

I too agree with Jack.

 

[Wny Hunter]

Thanks jack and bob. Do I have to do anything to my buckwheat before planting the winter rye in the fall ( Gly, cultipack, etc)?

 

[yoderjac]

I would try surface broadcasting into the buckwheat and cultipacking. If there are noxious weeds in the buckwheat, you can spry. Mowing or cultipacking will put the buckwheat on the ground where it will help mulch the WR seeds and desiccate quickly with soil contact.

 

[Wny Hunter]

Thanks again

 

[NorthWI]

I would add the red clover to the Winter Rye like LC in the fall mix as well. With newly cleared food plots in Northern WI forest land I did winter rye only on half the plots and added red clover to the others. I definitely wished I added clover to all of them because it grew well in the spring and I did not have to plant again.

 

[Bassattackr]

I would seed cereal rye, buckwheat and some sort of annual clover (despite the low ph), this fall to get things going. What little clover establishes could come on stronger as the lime takes effect by spring time.

Especially annual clovers, I've found crimson does fine in the ph = 5 range despite what the soil "requirements" are.

 

[Wny Hunter]

Ok. I’ll give it a shot

 

[PatinPA]

Adding on to this thread. I plan to turn the yard of my camp into a plot. Thinking about maybe making it into a small orchard in the future but my plan is to mow (did this weekend), next weekend spray, then use a rototiller to just break up the top inch of thatch. It's pretty thick. I'm not sure that the seed can get to the ground if I don't. I have a bag of buckwheat that I got from a local farmer the other year. I didn't have much luck with it last year but I think I planted too early. Didn't realize the soil needed to be so warm for it to germinate. I'll try it again and if it doesn't work, I'll kill it all off again in the fall and plant oats, rye, ptt. I did a soil test. It was pretty bad, worse than I expected but not as bad as my woods plot.
Plot pre mowing. A lot of goldenrod. a little bit of clover from a failed food plot years ago.

Post mowing. It's pretty dry here now but this area gets very wet. That structure straight ahead is the old spring house. The plot is ringed in allegheny chinkapin and a few persimmon that I got from the conservation district. No idea what kind they are. I figure it'll probably take a while to get rid of the grass but hopefully I can get a good buckwheat germination to smother some of the other weeds.

 

[Wny Hunter]

Heys guys, thanx for all the responses about my food plot. The buckwheat is coming in better then I thought it would, and I just picked up my cereal rye and crimson seed for the fall planting . My question is in regards to lining the edges of the food plot with some white oak trees . My long term plan for the plot is the LC mix . But I figured why not add some white oaks along the edges . Is there a downside to lining the edges with oaks ? I fully understand the issue of less sunlight reaching the plot, but the plot is already lined with trees , so I can’t see it blocking much more sunlight . I included a pic of the area shape of the plot

 

[yoderjac]

Heys guys, thanx for all the responses about my food plot. The buckwheat is coming in better then I thought it would, and I just picked up my cereal rye and crimson seed for the fall planting . My question is in regards to lining the edges of the food plot with some white oak trees . My long term plan for the plot is the LC mix . But I figured why not add some white oaks along the edges . Is there a downside to lining the edges with oaks ? I fully understand the issue of less sunlight reaching the plot, but the plot is already lined with trees , so I can’t see it blocking much more sunlight . I included a pic of the area shape of the plot

Depends how old you are. Most oaks can take 20 years to produce. Some like sawtooth can be producing significantly in 10 years or less, but you need to be careful to get the right strain if you plan to use them for hunting season attraction. Some strains drop in September and are gone before our hunting season. Dwarf Chinquapin Oak is a small phenotype that produces in a few years.

 

[Wny Hunter]

I’m relatively young , plus I don’t mind leaving nice habitat for future hunting club members . Honestly , I enjoy habitat improvement as much as I enjoy hunting. I kinda get my rocks off thinking something I did to improve my land led to another member harvesting a nice buck. I was def leaning toward the hybrid oak trees, I guess more specifically the Bur Oak variety. I believe I read on another post that them variety’s can produce a decent crop after 8-10 years , plus they produce annually rather then the red oaks which take two years to produce acorns ( I could be wrong, I just thought I remember another member stating that).

 

[Troubles Trees]

, I guess more specifically the Bur Oak variety.

When I first started at the College 16 years ago I got picked on by the Grounds department for picking up acorns on campus and planting them at my house. "it will take 20-25 years to get acorns" they said. Last year was the first year I saw acorns on my bur Oaks, there weren't many and they were tiny but they were acorns. There are a few hybrids available like Sawtooths and Dwarf Chinquapin's that Jack suggested that will start to give you something in 10-15 years but the drop times might not align with deer season so planting several different types would be ideal.

 

[BrushyPines]

Chestnuts will produce at a young age as well. Last year was the first year for mine to produce chestnuts. They had 1-3 chestnuts per tree, but hey it's a start. They are 5 years old right now. I have some that are 4 years old growing in pots and surprisingly one of them actually produced a chestnut this year. I was shocked!

 

[yoderjac]

It is admirable to plant for the next generation. I will probably only see the very beginnings of production from most of the nut trees I've planted over the years. My chestnuts are starting to produce as well. Mot projections of nut or fruit production are very optimistic from a practical standpoint for a hunter or deer manager. All of what we see advertised by nurseries and deer magazines and TV shows estimate when the first fruit will be produced. Most of these estimates are true under ideal conditions. But in the field for wildlife, we don't typically maintain trees under ideal conditions. Some folks that only have a few trees for attraction can get close to ideal given the interest, time, and energy. But, even when they do, we forget the first fruit is often immaterial to deer both for feeding and attraction. Both of these require a certain volume of fruit to either provide substantial food or attraction. Deer will alter their behavior to get to food produced by a small grove of mature trees, but for a half dozen trees producing a half dozen fruit each, deer will rarely change their behavior. Don't get me wrong, if deer are passing by, they will be more than willing to eat the fruit, and that is how deer naturally eat. A bite here and there as the move. However, deer won't single out that location based on that small amount of fruit.

I love adding permaculture to my habitat for deer. Because I've chosen low maintenance trees that will produce significant fruit/nuts without human intervention once mature, they will feed deer long after I'm dead and gone. Even with my food plots, I'm converting many of them to more sustainable wildlife openings. If I stop doing all habitat work tomorrow, I don't want my deer herd to have a big gap and impact. I want things to revert slowly over time giving the herd time to adapt rather than using high intensity methods that when stopped can cause a crash. Permaculture is a great addition to this approach, but it is a long term investment. I've spent many years growing trees from nuts and seeds and it has been great fun!

Thanks,

Jack

 

[TreeDaddy]

It is admirable to plant for the next generation. I will probably only see the very beginnings of production from most of the nut trees I've planted over the years. My chestnuts are starting to produce as well. Mot projections of nut or fruit production are very optimistic from a practical standpoint for a hunter or deer manager. All of what we see advertised by nurseries and deer magazines and TV shows estimate when the first fruit will be produced. Most of these estimates are true under ideal conditions. But in the field for wildlife, we don't typically maintain trees under ideal conditions. Some folks that only have a few trees for attraction can get close to ideal given the interest, time, and energy. But, even when they do, we forget the first fruit is often immaterial to deer both for feeding and attraction. Both of these require a certain volume of fruit to either provide substantial food or attraction. Deer will alter their behavior to get to food produced by a small grove of mature trees, but for a half dozen trees producing a half dozen fruit each, deer will rarely change their behavior. Don't get me wrong, if deer are passing by, they will be more than willing to eat the fruit, and that is how deer naturally eat. A bite here and there as the move. However, deer won't single out that location based on that small amount of fruit.

I love adding permaculture to my habitat for deer. Because I've chosen low maintenance trees that will produce significant fruit/nuts without human intervention once mature, they will feed deer long after I'm dead and gone. Even with my food plots, I'm converting many of them to more sustainable wildlife openings. If I stop doing all habitat work tomorrow, I don't want my deer herd to have a big gap and impact. I want things to revert slowly over time giving the herd time to adapt rather than using high intensity methods that when stopped can cause a crash. Permaculture is a great addition to this approach, but it is a long term investment. I've spent many years growing trees from nuts and seeds and it has been great fun!

Thanks,

Jack

Your last sentence speaks to me

I started growing baby trees from seed in 2016

Truly a labor of love that is not only fun, but extremely gratifying and educational

" I insist on being present when they are born."
Dr John Hammond
Jurassic Park ~1993

bill

 

[CarolinaDawg]

Heys guys, thanx for all the responses about my food plot. The buckwheat is coming in better then I thought it would, and I just picked up my cereal rye and crimson seed for the fall planting . My question is in regards to lining the edges of the food plot with some white oak trees . My long term plan for the plot is the LC mix . But I figured why not add some white oaks along the edges . Is there a downside to lining the edges with oaks ? I fully understand the issue of less sunlight reaching the plot, but the plot is already lined with trees , so I can’t see it blocking much more sunlight . I included a pic of the area shape of the plot

The main issue with oaks right on the edge of a food plot is the amount of moisture the roots will pull out of the soil. That’s usually more impactful than shading.

 

[Telemark]

The main issue with oaks right on the edge of a food plot is the amount of moisture the roots will pull out of the soil. That’s usually more impactful than shading.

Yebbut eventually you will have acorns. They are not as predictable as a food plot, but when there are acorns on the ground, the deer are as predictable as they can get.

 

[Teeder]

I’m relatively young , plus I don’t mind leaving nice habitat for future hunting club members . Honestly , I enjoy habitat improvement as much as I enjoy hunting. I kinda get my rocks off thinking something I did to improve my land led to another member harvesting a nice buck. I was def leaning toward the hybrid oak trees, I guess more specifically the Bur Oak variety. I believe I read on another post that them variety’s can produce a decent crop after 8-10 years , plus they produce annually rather then the red oaks which take two years to produce acorns ( I could be wrong, I just thought I remember another member stating that).

I would suggest planting english oak or a bur hybrid like schuette's (swamp bur) or burenglish, plus some apples or pears. My EO's produced acorns in 8-12 years from seed, depending on location and how well I took care of them. They drop every year too.
I agree with yoderjac above. It takes quite a few trees to change behavior, but it's fun trying!